Water heater tripping mains

[Dennis_374475528]

We have a 2006 Swift Ace Award Tristar and recently the water heater has started tripping out at the board in the van when i try to run it on mains.

I am guessing that the element has failed and would like to replace it.

When I have tried I can't even get the plastic cover from round it unless I cut it off. Does anyone know if it is user replaceable and if so how to do this?

Thanks

Den

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dennis,

It will depend on which model of appliance you have, but I believe the elements are replaceable for most models.

A word of warning, If it can also run on gas, then it is then classed as a 'Gas appliance'. Only persons who are competent with the gas regulations are allowed to install service remove or repair gas appliances.

 

[Gafferbill]

Contact Gary at.......

http://www.arcsystems.biz/

 

[Dennis_374475528]

It's a Truma Ultrastore, and it does also run on gas.

I've just had a look on their website but could not find any relevant info there.

Den

 

[Jim_374473646]

I contacted Gassafe (the people that gas engineers MUST be registered with, the replacement of CORGI).

This is the questions asked :-

"I am wondering if you can clarify something for me.

Am I allowed to replace the electrical heater element in my caravan water heater?

The heater is a duel supply heater LPG or 240v.

I will not be interrupting any of the gas supply."

and their reply :-

"Thank you for your enquiry, if this can be done without touching the gas supply, then there is no problem with you doing this work".

So you are not in breach of the gas regs by working on the heater, as long as you don't mess with the gas circuit.

Jim

 

[xtrailman]

I had a leak on my 2004 bailey, the electrical element seal was leaking, but only when the water in the heater was cold.

To get to the element connections i cut away the plastic/carboard cover, replacing the element looks straight forward.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Jim,

In many cases you have to move the Truma water heater to gain sufficient access to change the element, and in fact with some earlier models, you had to take the entire heater out, and work on a bench. In either case the gas and flue connections have to be disengaged, which definitely brings it into the realms of the Gas Safety Regulations.

I have not seen the latest design, so perhaps access to the element has been improved.

But from another aspect I still interpret the element as being within the realms of the Gas regs; Water containment is a required aspect for the safety of the appliance whether it is working on mains or gas. If the water containment fails due to incorrect fitting of the element, then the appliance as a whole is seen as unsafe, but more importantly it is an unsafe Gas appliance, with all that entails.

Others may take an alternative view on this but where companies need to manage work practices to comply with regulations care has to be taken to ensure the correctly trained persons are working on the appliance.

Jim I must also point out that Gassafe registration is not universally required. First of all it is UK only , and for some strange reason, persons working on their own touring caravan for personal use are exempt from registration BUT they are still required to be competent and conversant with the necessary safety regulations and ACoPS.

Fitters must be registered if working on Touring caravans used for hire.

Gassafe registration is required for all domestic and industrial installation, service, repair and removal work.

I also contend that gas fitters at caravan service depots should be fully trained Gassafe registered.

 

[xtrailman]

My 2004 baileys heater element can be changed without interference with the gas. a easy DIY job in my opinion.

Also be aware that if your children are being minded by your best friend, then they MUST be registered.

 

[Jim_374473646]

John,

I must admit I often forget that the forum is not purely a UK forum, but most questions asked are from UK residents about UK rules and regs.

Gas Safe are not the people who make the rules, but they are the body tasked with making sure they are adhered too.

I do think that any advice they give would satisfy the HSE if they were to investigate something. I asked a specific question and got a specific answer, in the query I stated "I will not be interrupting any of the gas supply" I also stated it was a water heater. So based on that they gave the reply that work could be done DIY on the prevision that the gas supply was not touched.

As you have pointed out on some models the whole heater would need to be removed in which case the supply would need to be disconnected and would thus come within the realms of the regs. You have also pointed out though that if somebody wants to work on their own system they don't need to be Gas Safe Registered, you then say that they must be "competent and conversant with the necessary safety regulations and ACoPS", can you clarify that for me please?

I was under the impression that it was only if an accident or event occurred which involved prosecution that you needed to show that you acted safely.

I must admit that messing with gas, if you are in any doubt about doing it safely is a BIG NO NO for me, leaking gas builds up and explodes, definitely not a risk worth taking.

Ray,

I was watching that on the news yesterday about the two WPCs minding each others kids, it is ridiculous that they have found themselves on the wrong side of the law. Whoever makes the rules up that says you can get a 14 year old school kid from an advert in the local papershop window to mind your baby from 6pm to 2am and that is OK, but then say that if your best friend or colleague (who in this case will even be CRB checked) cannot look after your kids for a couple of hours and you return the favour without braking the law, should be shot LOL

Jimbo

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Jim,

The special clauses in the Gas Safety regulations that allow owners of touring caravan to use unregistered fitters for gas work on their caravans, is often in my view misunderstood. The clause only says the fitters do not need to be registered, it make no discount for the overriding effect of the regulation that calls for all fitters to be competent for the work they carry out even if they are not registered.

You are quite right that Gassafe do not make the rules, nor do they police them.

I do not believe you are implying that it is OK to work unsafely and to hope that no investigation into your work is necessary,, that is a very backward approach, the proactive approach is to make sure that every one works safely to avoid the necessity for an investigation. By limiting gas work to those who are competent (not just qualified) the opportunity for ommisive mistakes is vastly reduced which maximises safety.

The point about it being a water heater, is that the element is directly in contact with the water that also circulates within the gas heater. There are some element arrangements where the heater is external and can be changed without compromising the gas/water side at all whilst I know it is not a water heater but the element in the typical caravan fridge is an example of an external element.

 

[xtrailman]

john l

Please explain how a element in water, can have a adverse effect due to the heater also being operated on gas?

I don't understand your last paragraph.

 

[ProfJohnL]

By definition an immersion heater is immersed in the fluid it is heating. In this case it is in the water. To replace an element that is an integral part of an appliance means that at some point the elements removal will have broken the water containment seal within the appliance. If the element were not replaced and the water way left open (albeit highly unlikely) or its replacement is not performed to complete the seal, the action of the person who removed the element left the appliance in an unsafe condition. Technically they should ensure the appliance cannot be used. This may seem obvious, but it is an important point, because the failure to secure the appliance contravenes the Gas Safety Regulations.

If the element is a contact rather than an immersion heater, then at no time does the removal of the element compromise the water containment and thus in this respect it will not compromise the gas side.

 

[Jim_374473646]

I would like to first point out that I have no intention of touching my gas, the main reason is I have friends in the trade that would do it for me.

Back onto topic.

What you are saying doesn't hold water (pardon the pun LOL).

Firstly the water containment issue. The Carver Cascade heaters which are the most common on caravans have a drain plug that the owner should remove each winter to empty the system (and most if not all others I expect). This would breach your water containment rule.

Secondly, quite simply by allowing the public "unregistered fitters" to work on their own caravans by default means they will not be aware of all the rules in the gas regulations.

If accidents do happen, then no doubt the HSE and insurance companies will ask questions and want to point the finger at somebody, being aware of all the regulations would certainly go a long way to prove you acted with due diligence .

Also the OP was talking of replacing the element himself, as also was the question directed at Gas Safe, no mention was made of getting an unregistered engineer to do it, it was purely a DIY issue.

Jimbo

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi Jim,

You have just pointed out the absurdity of the regulations!

On the one hand, there is the overriding (and in my view sensible) requirement that a competent person must perform all work on gas installations and appliances. The usual and most common route to establishing the level of competency is through the old CORGI and now Gassafe registration process. Nothing is perfect and but at least it is an approach and significantly better than nothing, and now at least the fitter has to demonstrate their competency to reaffirm their registration.

The crazy anomaly for touring caravans is that the fitter does not have be registered, but the overall effect of the regulations is that the fitter should still be competent, but there is no simple way to establish competency without some form of formal testing.

So exactly as you say the vast majority of unregistered fitters will not be familiar with the details of regulations, and as such would not be deemed competent to work on gas systems.

With regard to the heater that Dennis has in a 2006 caravan, it is most likely to be a Truma, rather than a Carver. But both the Truma and the Carver do have methods for draining down, but these are designed for user operation, where as the element is a service item, if the drains systems were not closed, the water escape is to the outside of the appliance not inside the caravan and possibly onto sensitive heater control systems.