Water Pump running all the time.

[thebigman]

I hope someone can help.

I have an Abbey 1998 Domino. The problem I had was the water pump was running intermitant. I discovered that the microswitch was burnt out in the Whale pressure valve. I replaced the switch AS5005 and the repair kit with diaphrams etc.

Now the pump runs all the time, I even took out the spring etc inside the valve and it still keeps going. I have 3 wires going to it 1. orange and white,2.purple and yellow 3.purple and black. Two of them have small terminals and one has a larger one not quite sure which order they go. If I switch them over nd turn on the pump it blows the 10amp fuse right away.

I'm at my wits end now. Any help at all would be brilliant.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I hope someone can help.

I have an Abbey 1998 Domino. The problem I had was the water pump was running intermitant. I discovered that the microswitch was burnt out in the Whale pressure valve. I replaced the switch AS5005 and the repair kit with diaphrams etc.

Now the pump runs all the time, I even took out the spring etc inside the valve and it still keeps going. I have 3 wires going to it 1. orange and white,2.purple and yellow 3.purple and black. Two of them have small terminals and one has a larger one not quite sure which order they go. If I switch them over nd turn on the pump it blows the 10amp fuse right away.

I'm at my wits end now. Any help at all would be brilliant.

Hello Bigman.

I expect you realise that if the pump is running, it means the circuit is not being broken by the pressure switch.

The combination of symptoms you describe suggests to me you may have one original fault and a second one as a result of the repair you have attempted.

If the original pressure switch had "burnt out" I would check the pump is not in fact damaged which could have caused the switch to be overloaded. Unless you have a decent ammeter it is difficult to check the current the pump is drawing. You may need a replacement pump - it might be handy to carry a spare anyway.

The second fault where the pump is not turning off is almost certainly down to the way you have carried out the repair or adjusted the operating point. First thing is to try adjusting the pressure screw to its lowest pressure setting. If the pump still fails to turn off when the water is up to pressure then I would strip down the switch and reassemble it taking great care to follow any instructions supplied.

You might find this helpful:-

http://www.whalepumps.com/rv/siteFiles/resources/docs/resource-library/watermaster_installation_instructions.pdf

 

[thebigman]

Hi There thanks for the reply.
The pump is a brand new one right out the bag.
I can screw the pressure valve right the way out or right the way in and the pump still goes.
I put in a new rubber diaphram which is white, it was black before.
The water seems to be getting up to pressure as when i turn the taps it blasts out, if i leave the pump running it blows the pump off the caravan.

 

[Parksy]

Check to make sure that the system isn't sucking air in via a loose joint somewhere. If the pressure switch is correctly adjusted air in the system is the next most common fault which would cause the pump to run continuously.

 

[brian_c]

My comment may not be much help. But I had a similar thing although only for a few minutes early last year. After setting up the pump just kept running although I'm unable to hear it my wife pointed it out.
After switching off and scratching my head for a while I realised that I hadn't bled the water at the shower outlet when filling the system. So the pump was trying to actually compress the air in the pipes rather than getting up to switch pressure immediately as it would have done when the system was properly bled.
I hope you soon get sorted.
Regards Brian

 

[thebigman]

THE SHOWER......I haven't used the shower will try that the minute I get home from work. Thanks for pointing that out.
I can take out the pressure adjuster and it still runs away. Is it the round diaphragm that pushes the pin against the switch? It always seems dry when I strip it down so maybe?? Will try shower. Watch this space.

 

[Gafferbill]

.........your type of Whale water pump has recently been much improved.
I have a 1995 Swift which had a similar set up as your 1998 Abbey.

I have upgraded the system on my Swift with a higher output pump and a new socket with a Whale Watermaster IC controller fitted. This new type of electronic controller is far superior in operation to the old pressure type controller with which you are having problems.
I would recommend that you upgrade to.........Whale Watermaster IC and here is a Whale video on the upgrade.

If you already have a higher output pump you only need to buy the electronic controller which can be fitted to the back of the socket in minutes.

 

[thebigman]

Ok bled shower etc till no air. Still running. At wits end now. It is pressurising as blowing pump off the van. Even changed diaphram and pressure adjust screwed out all together. Stumpped.

 

[Damian]

Time to get a caravan engineer to look at it.

 

[thebigman]

Think i will make do with turning the pump isolator switch on the panel off and on till i get a Whalemaster IC

 

[Gagakev]

Check the contacts on the van I would have said also the pump but as your pump is new it should be OK.
Clean the contacts with precision/neeedle files. Then a small piece of fine emery paper, i had this tip on here a few years back, not saying it will work for you but it did on my old abbey. Good luck.

 

[thebigman]

I
The contacts are both new ones too.

 

[Sproket]

Time for an engineer .....

How long have you had the van and did it work ok before it burnt out the micro switch ?

 

[thebigman]

I bought it about 2 months ago. I got it from a widow. It lay for over a year. Water comes out taps OK. I tried switching wires but it blows a fuse. Also replaced o rings and diaphram etc.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Bigman,

We don't seem to have got very far.

We could spend a long time tooing a froing with questions and answers for something that an experienced caravan service centre or engineer could probably identify in a matter of minutes if they could actually see it and check bits

What we do know is:- You tell us you have re-built the pressure switch and since then the pump runs continually. This means either you have effectively bypassed the pressure switch, or the pressure switch is faulty, or you have rebuilt it or rewired it incorrectly.

Until the cause of your problem is identified and corrected, adding bits like the Whale IC is only treating the symptom not the cause.

Even though the pump only operates at 12V dc, incorrect 12V wiring is quite capable of causing a fire, so at this stage I strongly support Damians comment about getting it checked by a professional.

 

[Gafferbill]

Hello again Bigman,

...........adding bits like the Whale IC is only treating the symptom not the cause.

Just to clarify............I suggested to the OP that upgrading the pump operation by adding a Whale IC controller would solve his problem as I know for certain this would be the case.

I know this because the addition of Whale IC to the pump socket sets the pressure switch to maximum water pressure and renders it inoperative electrically as a control device.
In other words it sets the pump running as is the state the OP now finds himself in.........that is pumping water without switching off.
In fact the Whale IC controller achieves the on/ off function of the pump by sensing the electrical current present in the pump 12 volt supply.
When water is flowing in the system (tap on) the current is higher and is sensed by the IC unit and the pump stays on.
When the flow stops (tap off) the current is sensed to be lower and the pump turns off.

Unless the OP knows an engineer that works for free then a Whale IC unit may well be a cheaper solution and in my experience the better performance of the pump alone is worth the expense

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Gaffer,

I stand by my statement. Until the OP can identify why despite having a pressure switch his pump continues to run, I'm sure we are in agreement this shouldn't happen. So it is possible the actual fault could be a genuine serious problem, that left uncorrected could cause more problems later on. AS we don't know what the fault is, how can we simply ignore it.

I have seen and had to deal with enough 12V dc systems where poor connections or damaged wiring have caused systems to malfunction, and in several cases the simple route would have been to add an additional isolator of some sort, which some lazy person had done but the original fault was still there, and in one case it did begin to melt a plastic housing which was in danger of setting on fire because of its proximity to a grill.

Find the fault, and deal with it before simply adding extra bits.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi all and the Bigman.
I think you are all getting a little ahead of yourselves at this point, I agree with John in one respect the problem needs sorting before resorting to modifying the system. once done the IC unit is a good alternative however.
one has to remember that the Whale pressure water system is very simple and supposed to be idiot proof, and was a vast improvement on the older micro switch system that was riddled with faults caused by malfunctioning micro switches.
while I also agree that trying to diagnose a fault over the internet forum is also nigh on impossible because there is no verification that the OP has actually followed the instructions.
but having said that I am 99% sure that the problem will be so obvious and simple it will have been overlooked, we have all done it!!! got the van out found somethings not right and jump to the conclusion that there is a major fault, and it's something simple we have missed while setting up.
basically and this is for the benefit of the OP the whale pressure system as only 3 componants the pump the pressure switch and the tap. [forget the power switch as this obviously working] after filling the water butt insert the pump into the water before connecting to the van [this fills and primes the pump] then turn on the power switch. and the pump should run,
once running, go to the first tap on system, [usually the kitchen one] and turn the cold tap on wait until it runs clear without spluttering, then do the next one, and finally the shower.
now you have running water air free in the cold water, next do the same thing with the hot taps kitchen and bathroom
wait till they all run clear without spluttering if the spluttering does not stop there is air getting into the the system.
once you have no air in the system [the pump may at this point still be running] open one cold tap half way then turn the pressure switch anti clock wise until it clicks. or anti clockwise if it make no difference. then turn off the tap and the pump should stop. open the tap and the pump runs again, it is now set.
the pump runs only when there is a dropping of pressure in the system [note this can be at any time] wether the taps are on or not [this sometimes happens during the cooling stage of the hot water heating element] because there is a pressure difference [usually just a few clicks] some turn off the pump via the switch at night to stop this happening if it bothers them.
there are very few reasons why the pump should continue to run these have been covered earlier.
1 water leak [not getting up to pressure]
2 air leak [ same reason]
3 air in system [ also insufficient pressure]
4 faulty pressure switch [ the one and only micro switch in the system]
if the correct set up procedure has been followed this will elliminate the first 3 items.
this leaves only the pressure switch as the Op said he had changed this. it is unlikely the new unit is faulty.
this leaves only one conclusion and that is it has been fitted incorrectly. is it the right way round ?? [ there should be/could be an arrow showing the direction of flow] is the drain tap closed?? did you purge both cold and hot water taps. are you sure the connectors are in the right place.
and did you forget to take photos of the old unit in situ noting where everything went before removing anything ??.
no, well we have all done that also, [but you only do that once]
my advice start over doing everything methodically checking the pressure switch first.
I will bet it works then ok if not you will have diagnosed where the problem was because like all of us you missed something simple.
good luck and let us know if you find it!!.
col.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Situations where a poster has presented a particular problem to the forum, yet despite several different approaches offered by members the OP reports the problem has not been resolved, reminds me of a challenge we were set as Cubs (before they were known as Cub Scouts), where one blindfolded Cub was asked to tell another blindfolded cub how to put on a jumper without any feedback during the task. It was comical but it clearly illustrated how much we rely on others to have had the similar experience and also to have the same name for the same for the feature. :lol:

Whilst the above example was a pretty harmless but enlightening experience, it demonstrates the difficulty of trying to diagnose a problem or describe a fault finding or corrective task. Just because someone has a screwdriver it does not necessarily mean they know how to use it. :blink:

Sometimes when an OP who has been given lots of good advice but still can't resolve the problem, then it always starts to ring alarm bells and raises the question of have they understood the advice, or is the problem actually beyond their capability. In such situations I conclude there is a risk the actions of the OP is unlikely to effect a repair or may actually exacerbate the problem or worse put them in danger, so its wiser to refer them to professionals. :dry:

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hello John,
Thats the difficulty of on line diagnosis it is by word of mouth and as such is subject to interpretation but if we dont try and help what the point in using a forum, which in it's self is a good point as very often advice is given and there is no further input from the OP so one never knows if the advice helped. furthermore as you say just because one has a screwdriver there is no evidence, that the respondant knows how to use it.
there have been times over the years I have thought why bother just refer them to a professional as you often do but it's not my way and never has been. of course there are enquiries made where one thinks OMG dont touch that but it is often because the questioner assumes that a major fault as occured when in fact it is not the case.
in over 40 years of touring I can count on one hand the number times a major fault has happend that required professional intervention and 50% of those involved special tools only available in the trade.
very often it is the simplist things that get us stumped. as witnessed several dozen times on sites when someone enquires how do you do this or this is not working only to find they have forgot to turn something on.
answering a question on the forum is to me just the same except your not there.
when and if the OP gets back we might just learn what caused the problem. if there was one that is.
like one old lady who was on her own on one site, about 3days after arriving she came out of her van, and asked if I knew anything about electrics, as hers had gone off nearly a week ago, but she had managed to get by on the battery but it was now flat and nothing worked,
it took 15secs to walk to the bollard and flick the ECB that had tripped out, then everything worked and the battery started to recharge, so simple it was obvious to me but for her a major problem as she had never had one trip before and did not know there was one,
why relay this little story now !! well it turns out I was not the first caravanner she asked, a few day earlier she had approached a couple about it and been told she would have to call a mobile engineer to sort it out as it was probably her charge unit that had blown. :woohoo: it really got me that if I had not been there she would have paid a professional engineer a call out charge to just to flick a switch on a bollard.
so by all means lets just do the same and not bother sitting at the computer giving advice, when we could be doing something else.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Colin,

I agree with a lot of what you have written. The forum is a very valid way of obtaining additional knowledge on a wide range of caravanning issues. However I do take a little umbridge when you imply I refer correspondents to professionals too readily.

When reading the correspondence on the forum, clues sometimes crop up that suggests the writer has an inadequate knowledge of the subject, and especially where we are dealing with systems that are potentially hazardous (especially gas and electrics) the safest course of action is to refer them to competent professionals.

Where perhaps we diverge is the point at which we sense a correspondent is getting out of their depth, and I have to refer to my own past experience of working at a manufacturer of Gas, Electric and Electronic,and on the occasions where we were called in to sort out problems that had apparently arisen but in many cases where end users had 'meddled' with the appliance or its installation and frankly left them in hazardous conditions. Principally because the owner had not got the relevant knowledge or equipment to do a proper job. Comparing the written reports to what we found was rather like the proverbial iceberg where you only see 10% and 90% is below the waterline.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi John,
sorry I caused any umbridge it was not intended, I was mearly mentioning a reference to the occurance of the dreaded [to me] take it to a professional comment that more often than not slips in when questions are asked on technical matters on this thread there have been three, on a subject that should be so simple to cure with a bit of thought and a few basic tools sat on a site in the middle of the highlands at night in the dead of winter.
it may or may not be coinsidence that these comments are mostly made by members that have or in the past have had professional credentials, may be it is just the case that such members have a different outlook and perspective on such matters.
it also may be that in time as caravans get more electronic and complicated that any job will be too technical for anyone without a BSC in electronics could contemplate doing,
as with many modern cars, we now have technical assistants in most garages that have never picked up a spanner and dont know the difference between a 1/2in AF and 13mm metal thing that puts nuts on, as their day is filled looking at a lap top screen, when these days come along old dinosaurs like me will be obsolete and the Practical will be deleted from Practical Caravan.
not that any of this matters as it is now 4days since the OP raised the issue, by now I would have expected he has either found and cured the issue. or has indeed called out an engineer to fix it,

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Colin,

I think you have put your finger on the crux of this particular thread when you wrote

.......... on a subject that should be so simple to cure with a bit of thought and a few basic tools sat on a site in the middle of the highlands at night in the dead of winter................

It seemed that despite a number of good quite detailed explanations and suggestions, the OP did not report back on the outcomes of those suggestions, but instead was heading off to buy something which would not cure the original fault only mask it.

This rang alarm bells for three reasons:-
The problem was not resolved
The potential risk would remain
I don't like to see people wasting money.

I'm sure you would agree that its better to find the cause of a symptom rather than covering it up, especially where the symptoms suggest there could be a potentially (please excuse the pun) dangerous fault with the electrics. We certainly know that this logical approach is true for damp in caravans, and equally for gas related problems.

We sometimes need to look at the bigger picture surrounding a problem, and perhaps that where professional experience kicks in and we can foresee possible serious scenarios the dabbler might not even realise will be affected.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hello John,
"Well" you have got me there on two points my friend.
if you cannot help someone cure a fault on one of the most simple systems found in a van there is little chance of helping them sort something more complicated like electrics at least you can see water.
and even after one has taken the trouble to respond and spent 45mins typing a detailed description and how to fault find, the questioner [happens all to frequently] never bothers to make a 5min reply to let you know if it helped, there really is not much point bothering.
maybe the practical has already gone out of caravanning and the tide has now turned on DIY projects I fully agree that there is little point in modifying a system that has undiagnosed faults as the modification could make things far worse.
an example of this would be changing the twin plug connectors to 13pin euro plug because there was a fault one of the plugs, even after changing the plugs the fault could still be there, and once the plugs had been removed there would be no way of knowing where the original fault was. the only way to rectify the problem is by the use of test equipment in the first place, and then change the plugs. providing of course that the person attempting a repair has both the equipment and the knowledge of how to use it.

as you and fellow members know I no longer own a caravan as that part of our lives has now past, but I do retain an interest in the hobby that has given us so much pleasure over the years, and any help I can give to assist others to also have many years of pleasure out of their vans is a duty I try to maintain, sadly the repair of vans in the context of what we know is rapidly passing and soon it will be time for us dinosaurs to withdraw from the scene,
the vans I knew and learned to repair are now becoming rare as are the people who used them. it wont be long before vans become irreparable from the DIY point of view. until then there is still the odd job that one can do without either blowing ones self up or setting ones self on fire, for these jobs we are here to help. and as for all the rest, well there's always the repair shop at £50 per hour.

 

[Parksy]

With the latest model caravan which costs mega-bucks I can understand why owners would be reluctant to meddle with ever more complex systems.
Having said that, your practical tips and suggestions are always valuable because this forum and website attracts many lurkers or browsers, some of who have bought a less expensive older tourer and who don't log in but pick up ideas and tips nevertheless.
It's a pity that we are often left wondering what the solution was when those who asked for help forget to let us know the outcome.