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As I wrote in my first reply to this thread it's a mine field, because there are so many different regulations, and even more interpretations and the same characteristc can have several different names or acronyms, and some that may on the face of it seem to mean the same thing can be totally different.
Jezzer, I can agree that some outfit's do work quite effectively even though they exceed the industries 100% guide line, but they are in the minority, and to be fair to the OP, an example of one and a relatively extreme one such as yours is not especially helpful as his vehicle has some very different attributes to yours.
I do have a Passat, and it is a good vehicle, but it's a family estate, not builders truck, and despite its attributes I would not be prepared to suggest a novice caravanner should contemplate pushing it beyond the advisory limits from the start. As experience builds that's the time to consider if you need to use a bigger caravan.
Jezzer, I can agree that some outfit's do work quite effectively even though they exceed the industries 100% guide line, but they are in the minority, and to be fair to the OP, an example of one and a relatively extreme one such as yours is not especially helpful as his vehicle has some very different attributes to yours.
I do have a Passat, and it is a good vehicle, but it's a family estate, not builders truck, and despite its attributes I would not be prepared to suggest a novice caravanner should contemplate pushing it beyond the advisory limits from the start. As experience builds that's the time to consider if you need to use a bigger caravan.
Totally agree Prof; hopefully I made that clear in my comments-small steps and all that and a towing course might be a really good idea.
Atached is the AA's definition of Kerb Weight and Miro
.How to tow a caravan: Beginner's guide to towing | The AA
The rules about towing a caravan (or trailer) can seem technical, but staying safe and lawful is simple to do. Here's how to tow a caravan securely.www.theaa.com
They clearly can't read the law.
There is a distinct difference between kerbweight and mass in running order. They can't put themselves above the law.
Quite apart from whether the driver is included or not mass in running order is a generic value applicable only to the one vehicle of that model that was submitted for type approval and not specifically to the car in question. There can be quite a considerable difference. Mass in running order can therefore be no more than a rough guide and it is usually less than kerbweight, despite the fact that it includes the driver.
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Hello Dave,Atached is the AA's definition of Kerb Weight and Miro
.How to tow a caravan: Beginner's guide to towing | The AA
The rules about towing a caravan (or trailer) can seem technical, but staying safe and lawful is simple to do. Here's how to tow a caravan securely.
The document you have pointed to is just the AA's interpretation, it is not a definitive answer, and often happens with interpretations of official regulations nuances of the fundamental source are lost or missintrpreted. Even the government's own web pages about vehicle and driving licences have containded some important discrepancies.
I just briefly scanned the AA page and I found an inaccuracy in the driving licences section:-
"A caravan over 750kg MAM as long as the MAM of the combined car and caravan is less than 3500kg and the MAM of the caravan is less than the un-laden weight of the car"
The last part about the trailer MAM not exceeding the un-laden weight of the car was repealed and acted retrospectively several years ago and prior to the AA's last revision date of 8th May 2017.
Since mass in running order is almost invariably less than kerbweight, a weight ratio calculated using mass in running order will result in a more conservative value, so one would be more on the safe side. However, if this were to be the basis for working out weight ratios then the organisations recommending the 85% value should amend their recommendation accordingly.
Even though there is poor confomaty of the way kerbweight is quoted, it is different to MIRO and the reported values will tend to be less than kerbweight. That would impact the conventional towing ratio calculation and produce what might seem to be a more adverse outcome.
I do agree it would make more sense to use a prescribed value like MIRO or MIS rather than the imprecise kerbweight. But then again the whole towing ratio is a bit of a farce, but that's a debate for another thread.
The variation between MIRO and kerbweight is around 70kg - but given the debate about 85-100% towing ratio it barely matters.
One can't generalise the difference between MIRO and kerbweight. It can be as much as 150kg, depending on the model. For a car with very few factory-fitted options it may, on the other hand, be close to zero.
Returning to the information published by the AA, they state, correctly, that MIRO does not include the towbar. However, it would be included in the kerbweight and that alone can account for up to 40kg including any necessary reinforcements and the wiring.
When you consider the fanatical adherence some people attach to keeping to the industry guidance, and how close some outfit's are to those limits, even a 10kg difference might change their assessment of an outfit match.
As Lutz has pointed out there can be some cars where the MIRO, is significantly different to the kerbweight, and could imply a suitable caravan might need to be 100kg or so lighter if the same target percent figures were used.
The more I read the more I get confused concerning a safe weight...
I know that my
kerb weight 1,810kg
tow 1,500kg
Nose on Hitch 75kg
I'm buying an Elddis affinity 540. unladen 1298kg
MTPLM 1450kg
So assuming the max weight for the caravan is less than my cars towing weight, I'm pretty safe with the towing.
So on a quick calculations and a simple theory, so if I keep my caravan weight within its limits, and ensure than the nose weight is 75kg.. I'm towing safely
My tow car is an Mitabishi outlander PHEV, Which on demo's it's towing a 17ft Swift Sprite which is slightly heavier than the Elddis.
It used to tow my old Elddis Avante 520 without problems.
I know that my
kerb weight 1,810kg
tow 1,500kg
Nose on Hitch 75kg
I'm buying an Elddis affinity 540. unladen 1298kg
MTPLM 1450kg
So assuming the max weight for the caravan is less than my cars towing weight, I'm pretty safe with the towing.
So on a quick calculations and a simple theory, so if I keep my caravan weight within its limits, and ensure than the nose weight is 75kg.. I'm towing safely
My tow car is an Mitabishi outlander PHEV, Which on demo's it's towing a 17ft Swift Sprite which is slightly heavier than the Elddis.
It used to tow my old Elddis Avante 520 without problems.
You know you're towing safely if it is stable-if ever felt an outfit was unsafe I'd slow down-and do something about it. When we towed our Verona with our Dacia Duster we knew if it felt unstable in anyway we'd go for a heavier tow car. Turned out to be better than we ever imagined albeit being petrol, lacking a bit of power on long Mway hills-and needed some thought ahead with dropping down a gear. Never had so much as a wobble-even in emergency situations-if I had i'd be looking as to why and once again upgrading the tow car. Most caravanners think about their driving but you do occasionally get overtaken at above legal speeds by outfits!
Parksy
Moderator
I should imagine that the guy who asked the question in the first place has given up and bought a tent instead.
Yet another newbie question hijacked.
No wonder so many new members disappear without trace.
It's a fallacy to think you can assess stability in normal driving as almost every outfit is stable then - the real test is when you have to manoeuvre sharply, that's when you find out how stable your outfit is.
The NCC Towing Code is nice and simple - just what beginners want - but the "experts" try to make it complicated.
And here was me thinking we were being dense for not understanding the thousands of conflicting guidelines we'd read.
Yep, definitely feel like I stepped on a landmine, still there was some helpful info in among the patronising replies (no of course I wouldn't want to jeopardise my family
) . Yep Parksy I may well be gone after this.
MIRO, MTPLM, GFW, kerbweight, max permissible towing weight what's included in kerbweight or MTPLM.... it's the most poorly defined thing I've seen in a while. The bottom line is the car can tow more than 100% of kerbweight but prob not bulky caravans. Maybe if we add some extra aerodynamics and eat all the cheeseburgers beforehand
Over 20 years of driving each, with zero accidents (bet I'll crash tomorrow after saying that), I'd like to think we'd drive safely, and particularly slowly to begin with - traffic jams coming soon to country roads near you
Yep, definitely feel like I stepped on a landmine, still there was some helpful info in among the patronising replies (no of course I wouldn't want to jeopardise my family
) . Yep Parksy I may well be gone after this.MIRO, MTPLM, GFW, kerbweight, max permissible towing weight what's included in kerbweight or MTPLM.... it's the most poorly defined thing I've seen in a while. The bottom line is the car can tow more than 100% of kerbweight but prob not bulky caravans. Maybe if we add some extra aerodynamics and eat all the cheeseburgers beforehand
Over 20 years of driving each, with zero accidents (bet I'll crash tomorrow after saying that), I'd like to think we'd drive safely, and particularly slowly to begin with - traffic jams coming soon to country roads near you
Not quite true I don't think; generally a weave is a developing thing, but generally
I didn't put that too well-but my point is have an emergency and it wobbles-do something about it-assuming it's not too late heaven forbid-after 30k miles I had encountered most things including Hurricane Brian and not seeing humpback bridge signs-caravans launch quite well you know-and land equally so! Sorry bit flippant but true story.
I agree that your own experience isn’t exactly as per the norms but with your approach it worked fir you over a great many miles. Conversely there are links posted on the Forum that graphically show how quickly instability can set in and even with cars such as Shogun or Disco the driver loses control totally as the caravan takes over. I accept that the drivers were doing silly things but we don’t know the loading weights or load distribution but irrespective of these what should have been stable outfits finished up as messes.
😂😂😂 each individual term may well be well defined, but the overall towing weights, limits clearly isn't well defined or it wouldn't take 2 pages, so far, of replies!
As I said its a "mine field" rife with misunderstanding.
I'm sorry if you feel we have spoon fed you, but we don't know you from Adam or Eve, or how well versed you are in the subject. Your opening question gave no indication of your experience in this subject area.
It's difficult to strike the right balance in an answer, I prefer to not only give the answer but to try and explain the reasoning behind it, because some people may need that extra information, in the hope that at least the reader has a better chance of understanding and have the tools to verify what they've been told.
Parksy
Moderator
A lot of confusion and doubt arises when someone else starts an online discussion using different parameters Prof.
I honestly don't want to stifle debate, but when a new member asks a reasonably straightforward question and it's answered, the ensuing technical discussion about the various terminology and EU directives clouds the issue.
I'm glad to see you started another thread after my earlier intervention, but by that time Nic must have been losing the will to live.
I know that I was 😉
I don't feel soon fed at all. I asked about the weights, I certainly don't need guilt trips about putting my family at risk. I prefer clear, factual answers, easy. Usually happy to get into a discussion if need be but yeah the will to participate was gone by then. The bit above that you quoted was in direct reply to the guy who said it was all clearly defined. 2 pages of discussion shows it's clearly not.
Parks, yep I've def lost the will to live, to read, I'd go hide in my caravan but eh haven't got one yet 😉
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