What to expect from an inspection

[TV200]

Hi, I'd appreciate your view/understanding of a damp check on a caravan. I imported a Bailey caravan from the UK to NZ. The last Bailey approved service was a month or two before the sale and stated damp readings of '0'. I wondered if this was too low to be realistic - i.e. the level of humidity is never 0. I therefore organised a AWS/NCC inspection just for damp. In particular I read that Bailey's construction is unlikely to have damp in the walls, but could in the floor. I paid £90 for the inspection and asked the inspector to point out anything else of concern. I agreed he wasn't going to do a full inspection, it was just damp that worried me. He visited the caravan and came back saying no damp and it was in great condition. Upon arrival in NZ its clear the floor has patches of rot underneath - in particular at the back. Dispointed, I contacted the inspector who came back and said a damp inspection is only of the inside, they didn't look underneath!
Who is being unreasonable?
If its not me, then is there a formal way to complain, or would it be a small claim in the UK (I'm British and am planning on returning anyway)?

 

[otherclive]

Hi, I'd appreciate your view/understanding of a damp check on a caravan. I imported a Bailey caravan from the UK to NZ. The last Bailey approved service was a month or two before the sale and stated damp readings of '0'. I wondered if this was too low to be realistic - i.e. the level of humidity is never 0. I therefore organised a AWS/NCC inspection just for damp. In particular I read that Bailey's construction is unlikely to have damp in the walls, but could in the floor. I paid £90 for the inspection and asked the inspector to point out anything else of concern. I agreed he wasn't going to do a full inspection, it was just damp that worried me. He visited the caravan and came back saying no damp and it was in great condition. Upon arrival in NZ its clear the floor has patches of rot underneath - in particular at the back. Dispointed, I contacted the inspector who came back and said a damp inspection is only of the inside, they didn't look underneath!
Who is being unreasonable?
If its not me, then is there a formal way to complain, or would it be a small claim in the UK (I'm British and am planning on returning anyway)?

External measurements aren’t a normal feature of a damp survey either as part of a service or a specific survey.

 

[Raywood]

Damp is usually measured from inside although I would have expected a look underneath to check the running gear although the damp might be a long way from that. This is very difficult as we do not know the time delay between you getting the survey and being able to check the caravan. I do also wonder how this was transported and if sea water could have reached it.

 

[RogerL]

Damp is usually measured from inside although I would have expected a look underneath to check the running gear although the damp might be a long way from that. This is very difficult as we do not know the time delay between you getting the survey and being able to check the caravan. I do also wonder how this was transported and if sea water could have reached it.

If the caravan was transported inside a container, this may affect any damp readings.

 

[audiorob]

Caravan Damp Check – Onsite Caravan Services | Mobile Caravan Services
might help with an overview of damp testing.
Traditional built vans were timber framed with thin aluminium sheet externally and coated ply internally., so it might be expected that damp to the extent of 'rot' you describe externally would have been evident internally. If your Bailey is such then you could purchase a damp meter and measure for yourself.
For your £90 you should have received a schematic 'exploded' diagram of the caravan with many measurements noted around windows, doors, rooflights, lockers and structural joins ceiling/walls/floor joints. Shown as % as noted in the attachment. That is what I am given at each annual service on my Elddis.
This must be very disappointing as you took precautions when buying the van and have paid for transit only to find the van was not as expected.

 

[Damian]

You do not say which model of caravan you have.

If it is an Alutec built van then there has been an issue with the 4 corners of the floor.

Whilst everything else in Alutec vans is damp proof materials , the floor is wooden sandwich and once identified the "fix" was a plastic pocket on each corner to stop water penetrating the wood.

However, the pocket was just placed on the corners and in a lot of cases not sealed properly, if at all.

As regards levels of readings, again, if an Alutec van then the only place that damp will show up on a damp meter is the floor, but normally only the inside is tested.

A damp meter cannot be used on internal walls and the test is to hand feel the wall to see if there are any parts at a different temperature to the majority of the area, indicating that there may be some water ingress. (not a very scientific way I agree).

As the issue of possible underfloor damage is well known, I would have thought that the engineer who tested your van should have checked these areas, if not then he is failing in his methodology or just has not had the training to bring this issue to mind.

Unfortunately there are a lot of caravan "engineers" out there, but not all are as good as they should be.

 

[ProfJohnL]

... I therefore organised a AWS/NCC inspection just for damp. In particular I read that Bailey's construction is unlikely to have damp in the walls, but could in the floor. I paid £90 for the inspection and asked the inspector to point out anything else of concern. I agreed he wasn't going to do a full inspection, it was just damp that worried me. ...

Hello TV200.

This type of question is always fraught with difficulties, becasue none of the forum members was present to see or hear what's happened. The devil can be in the minutia and a word or grammatical mark in the wrong place can turn a point on its head.

If you suspect this mater is going to need a legal judgement or arbitration, I would advise you not to continue posting any details in case it might jeopardise the proceeding. In your case the matter is made more complicated becasue of the export of the goods in question.

In general terms, when person sets them selves up in a trade in the UK, the law makes the assumption the person has specialist knowledge and experience in the scope of the trade. It is also expected that when the trades person contracts to undertake work on behalf of a consumer, they will bring their expertise to bear on the work to serve the consumers best interests.

When contracting such a person it is usual to agree the scope of any work to be carried out. That would of course be essential if a fixed price has been agreed. Many trades will use an options and scale of tariffs for regular types of work. Often the options in a menu will be described in fairly general terms, but the tradesperson should be able to provide detailed description if required.

Were a non standard job is concerned, it is in both parties interests to engage in a detailed discussion to check the they are all satisfied with scope or limits of the activity. These become part of the contract when they are agreed.

Contracts are easier to judge when written, but in consumer situations verbal contracts are deemed to be just as valid, and if contested the test is what would a reasonable person have understood when the conversation took place. If the conversation was witnessed then that is an important support that can be used.

I would assume the inspector knew you were not in the UK, and thus you were relying on his/her expertise to provide an a effective damp condition report that you would be using to inform on the viability of exporting the caravan.

Based only on what you have written, some of your comments surround the price of the work suggest to me that you had some discussion with the inspector about the extent of any survey, and perhaps the inspector believed you were saying only do a "damp test" rather than a full damp survey.

Even if that were true, I would have reasonably expected a professional acting remotely on my behalf in these circumstances to point out the difference between a damp test and a full damp survey and the result of the test could not be taken as a whole caravan damp report. Further from their expertise, this type of caravan has a history of damp problems not necessarily detected by just a damp test.

I suggest you vary carefully review the contractual arrangements you had with your inspector, and only if you didn't unreasonably limit the inspectors activities, then you might think about taking the matter further.

You will almost certainly need to get an professional engineers report from an engineer who is prepared to analyse the extent of the damage, and who is prepared to put their name to a report that confirms the evidence would have been easily detected by the original inspector.

Getting a satisfactory resolution in this case I can see as being fraught with difficulties, becasue of the time, distance and cross boarders complications. You will definitely need to seek professional advice to pursue this matter.

 

[otherclive]

I’ve never had a damp inspection look underneath the van. In practical Caravan 2018 the article on what to expect from a service only includes interior checks for damp. If Bailey had concerns they would have possibly issued a technical bulletin to their dealerships, but such is the communication within the industry that it’s quite likely that a non dealership inspection may not pick up problems in external surfaces.
The NCC inspection check list only covers internal damp check. Possibly if the technician found problems in an inside floor surface then the effects on the external panels may be looked at in order to advise the customer.

Disappointing as it may seem I don’t think that the OP has much redress as the first AWS mentioned was two months prior to purchase . Who did this isn’t clear. Was it the dealer who sold it to the OP or was it a previous owner. The OPs independent damp check seems to be after purchase, so the only redress would be a refund of the fees. Without more clarity on these successive damp checks it’s not realistic to even consider CRA 2015 or Small Claims action.

Me I’d put my effort into sorting out the problem in line with any technical recommendations from Bailey as it seems to be a recurring problem.

https://www.practicalcaravan.com/advice/annual-caravan-servicing-what-you-need-to-know

https://www.approvedworkshops.co.uk/content/S636597277157472806/Combinded PPI (2019) - EXAMPLE.pdf

 

[Damian]

I’ve never had a damp inspection look underneath the van. In practical Caravan 2018 the article on what to expect from a service only includes interior checks for damp. If Bailey had concerns they would have possibly issued a technical bulletin to their dealerships, but such is the communication within the industry that it’s quite likely that a non dealership inspection may not pick up problems in external surfaces.

If the engineer had been to Bailey and been awarded the certification to be a recognised partner then he would have been well aware of the need to check the underfloor on the Alu tec models.

However, Bailey do not operate a "all comers" training system for non Bailey engineers and only those invited through recommendation are given the opportunity to take part.

There are several makes of vans which also have a similar issue with underfloor damp, or the possibility of issues, some of the EU made vans for example where the rear panel curls under the lower edge of the van and water wicks into the lower floor wood.
The remedy is simple, but unless you are aware of the issue, or the engineer is aware, it can go undetected until it causes a bigger problem.

Most underfloors are made of marine grade plywood and either treated with a water barrier or an inpermiable membrane , but it is the cut edges which are the weak point.

 

[TV200]

Thanks all, its a 2014 Bailey Pursuit Plus 560-5. Its an alutec. The caravan was transported in a dry container and wasn't damp. The dealer here says it would have taken at least a few years to develop the level of rot in the wood (and are willing to stand up and say it) - I read the horror stories and thats why I paid for the inspection for rot and damp.
The inspector was aware the recent service had a 0 reading and that it was my only real concern and the one thing I'd walk away from the caravan for - hence being the only thing he was required to check for, He is AWS/NCC approved and Caravan Club and Caravan and Motorhome club approved.
Of course I received no paperwork beforehand and only after I had paid him and he had approved the caravan as fine (and I'd brought the caravan) did he provide a receipt stating he only did an internal check.
I think I'll probably just suck it up and pay for the repair and learn my lesson.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I do sympathise with your position,.

If you have been following this and other UK forums you should have been very aware of how caravans often suffer with condition issues, and how often punters are advised to have a full pre purchase condition survey. But especially with your remote location in NZ, its still not clear how or why the inspector only did in internal damp test?

 

[otherclive]

I do sympathise with your position,.

If you have been following this and other UK forums you should have been very aware of how caravans often suffer with condition issues, and how often punters are advised to have a full pre purchase condition survey. But especially with your remote location in NZ, its still not clear how or why the inspector only did in internal damp test?

I think both damp checks were conducted in Britain before the caravan was shipped to New Zealand.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I think both damp checks were conducted in Britain before the caravan was shipped to New Zealand.

Yes I understand that.

I'm trying to work out why the inspector only did an internal Damp test. Is that was all that was specified by the OP or was it a failing on the part of the inspector.?

 

[otherclive]

Yes I understand that.

I'm trying to work out why the inspector only did an internal Damp test. Is that was all that was specified by the OP or was it a failing on the part of the inspector.?

I suspect that it was a simple matter of a glitch in communication, plus “ custom and practice”.

 

[Damian]

I'm trying to work out why the inspector only did an internal Damp test. Is that was all that was specified by the OP or was it a failing on the part of the inspector.?

Simple answer,,,,,,,,,,an external damp check is NOT part of an inspection following the lines of a service.
The only specified check is internal as that is where most damp manifests itself.

Unless the purchaser specifically says they want an external check of the underfloor it is not done as it is not usually a problem, but in some vans it is and unless the inspector, in this case a service engineer, NOT a surveyor, then he may well have not been aware of the issue with the corners of the underfloor and would have followed the normal service schedule of internal damp testing, which would have included the top layer of the floor .

Was it a failing of the inspector,,,no it was not.

 

[TV200]

The inspector was aware my only concern was the damp and damage to the caravan. I think it was a failing of the inspector, he knew I was placing my faith in him to check for issues in the caravan and that damp and damage was my key concern. In my view he should have said its internal only. The reality is what reading are you going to get in relaiton to damp from the inside of a caravan on a lino floor? However, it sounds like it may be usual practice not to check the bit of the floor from where it actually rots - so apart from the fact that the inspector said nothing about this and didn't go out his way to actually check for known issues (as agreed), I probably just should live with it and pay for the repairs. However I won't bother with an inspection next time as it wasn't worth the paper it was written on.
Thanks again.

 

[otherclive]

The inspector was aware my only concern was the damp and damage to the caravan. I think it was a failing of the inspector, he knew I was placing my faith in him to check for issues in the caravan and that damp and damage was my key concern. In my view he should have said its internal only. The reality is what reading are you going to get in relaiton to damp from the inside of a caravan on a lino floor? However, it sounds like it may be usual practice not to check the bit of the floor from where it actually rots - so apart from the fact that the inspector said nothing about this and didn't go out his way to actually check for known issues (as agreed), I probably just should live with it and pay for the repairs. However I won't bother with an inspection next time as it wasn't worth the paper it was written on.
Thanks again.

I can understand your disappointment, hopefully a good workshop in NZ can repair the floor areas and prevent it happening again.