Which brand least likely to leak?

[ChrisTurbeau]

Hi all,

American here. I'm not new to caravans (though we don't call them that :lol: ), but i AM new to European ones.

What brands of used caravans are the least likely to have leaks? I have looked at a few little Niewiadows aka Freedoms. The only one that had a leak was really old, and the leak was from the grab handle holes drilled through the shell (and repairing a leaky Freedom is not worrisome to me since unlike most American RVs, its floor is fiberglass, not plywood, and it has no wooden studs in the walls to rot).

But most of the bigger ones like I want (Baileys, Lunars, etc.) are showing evidence of "damp." I am not yet familiar with how all these brands are constructed, but in the US, pretty much all larger caravans are "stick-built," with wooden wall studs inside and a plywood floor. And the problem is, they all have a joint between the roof and walls, and that is where they all leak.

In order to prevent the roof joint from leaking, the sealant must be scraped out and replaced every 2-3 years). Of course, almost nobody does that, so pretty much every used caravan in the US is leaking even if there's no evidence of it inside the caravan.

(Well, it's much less common for the fiberglass "egg" ones, like Scamp, Boler, Burro, etc. to be leaking, because they do not have a roof joint at the walls. They are basically the American version of Freedoms)

I would prefer an older caravan as it will be much less expensive. I do not care whether the interior is outdated or shabby -- I am going to refinish the interior anyhow. But I do not want to have to rip out wall paneling or flooring and replace any studs or the floor.

What are some brands and models I should look at?

Are most European caravans all built with wooden frames inside the walls?

Thank you.

 

[Dodger524]

The leak rate among UK built caravans seems to be about the same judged from what I hear and read.

Older caravan's seem to be more leak-proof, presumably because any leaks have already been found and fixed, or the caravan trashed.

I have a Lunar Clubman which has stood the test of time; I hope!

Good luck with your search.

 

[Thingy]

https://www.swiftgroup.co.uk/the-swift-difference/pure-innovation/smart
Have a read on the above link. Not older caravans but it tells you about a different construction.

 

[otherclive]

Hi as said above most British vans have a propensity to leak. Since around 2010 construction methods were changed and improved and longer warranties offered. But there are still too many tales of problems even with the newer caravans. One improvement has been bonded shells with materials that are less susceptible, or not to damage by moisture. But even with these you hear of relatively new caravans having to have new rear or front panels due to cracking which leads to water ingress. This caravan and my last one have had three new panels ( two ends and one front) between them.

Amongst mainstream caravans Adria have a good retain (Slovenian now owned by Trigano), and the German makes have a very good retain for build quality consistently well above UK ones. Hobby, Hymer, Knaus etc

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi,
Caravan damp and leaks are one of the most frequently discussed issue on this and other caravan forums here in the UK. We do occasionally read of a caravan that has never leaked, so it does show the principle of the design has the potential to be leak free, but it's almost always let down by faulty manufacturing, and that is also evident in other issues that are brought to this forum. What it shows is there is very poor or non existent quality practices being used.

The manufacturers do not publish failure rates or warranty costs, so we cannot establish is any one make or model is generally better than another for water ingress problems, and we cannot assume that because we see less reports about one make it means they are percentage wise more reliable, it depends on how many units have been sold, again a figure the manufacturers do not offer up willingly.

Apart from the small all moulded vans like the Freedom's all other UK (and continental European) makes do have multiple examples of leaks so it's simply not possible to give a gold plated guarantee of a leak free caravan.

As a retired engineer, I am appalled at the way the industry has repeatedly failed to address the problems. They have treated the symptom by removing materials that rot, but they have not addressed the underlying causes, which are bad design which allows incorrect construction, and useless quality procedures that allow faulty product to leave the factory. They then have the audacity to refuse many claims or to make getting repairs difficult.

 

[Anseo]

I will go with otherclive on this one, if I were in the market for a van then Adria and the German brands would be top of my list.

 

[Thingy]

After yet another experience of awful manufacturing and customer service, Im with you on that one. My next van, if there is one after the latest debacle will be from the fatherland.

 

[Raywood]

Any make can leak and thee are no published statistics that I can find that shows leaks as opposed to other faults.
The satisfaction rates for foreign but ones do appear to be higher they have less than 5% of the market and so the numbers are very small. but Adria do always seem to come first or second best. In the last poll Coachman did come top for satisfaction and fault free models of the UK built makes and they do have a good reputation for service. Eldiss which includes Compass and Buccaneer always seem to come last but if this is other things or not I cannot say.

 

[ChrisTurbeau]

Raywood, of course any COULD leak. That point is irrelevant, no offense intended.

And I am not asking for published statistics so that too is irrelevant.

You certainly seem to be arguing against the fact that not all caravans leak at equal rates. That's just not true; some are much more leak-prone than others. And it certainly seems that while foreign-built ones take a small % of the market, overall that small % has a much lower rate of leakage. Especially certain brands.

Also, satisfaction ratings are irrelevant. Feelings do not correlate to whether or not there was physical water leakage or lack thereof.

 

[ChrisTurbeau]

As a retired engineer, I am appalled at the way the industry has repeatedly failed to address the problems. They have treated the symptom by removing materials that rot, but they have not addressed the underlying causes, which are bad design which allows incorrect construction, and useless quality procedures that allow faulty product to leave the factory. They then have the audacity to refuse many claims or to make getting repairs difficult.

Same is true in the West - worse, I think. There are customers whose RV's fail AS THEY LEAVE THE DEALERSHIP but then can't get the dealer to even get to the repair for six months. And it's not covered under warranty. This happens all the time. It's appalling, and it turns SO many customers off and makes them quit caravaning. Tragic, really.

Apart from the small all moulded vans like the Freedom's all other UK (and continental European) makes do have multiple examples of leaks so it's simply not possible to give a gold plated guarantee of a leak free caravan.

John, can you (or any other readers) name any other brands of all-moulded caravans besides the Freedoms?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Parksy]

I will go with otherclive on this one, if I were in the market for a van then Adria and the German brands would be top of my list.

Any used caravan, whether German or British built is prone to water ingress because the seals between panels deteriorate over time.
There's a widespread belief in the UK that German build quality is superior to the UK which may or may not be true.
We don't read about the failings of the average German built caravan too often because this forum is mainly used by UK owners with British built caravans.
I've read on here somewhere about a leaky Hobby caravan, I've actually seen a side window drop straight out of a Hobby and looked around a showroom example at the NEC caravan show with broken hollow plastic "chrome look" locker handles. I'm not convinced that the average German caravan is significantly better built, but they often have fewer accessories and appliances to go wrong because the Spartan Continental approach to caravanning is more akin to camping than the home from home approach favoured here in the UK

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Chris,
I have not done any research for all moulded caravans so I can't name any others, but that does not mean they're not out there. There a certainty some micro caravans of moulded construction, and there was a much older caravan make (1960's model), that had all its panels moulded, but its main overhead roof light and glass window seals invariably leaked in heavy rain.

I'm aware of Freedom caravans because I used to pass their UK headquarters in Stafford every working day for four years, then then many years later they moved 6 miles to my old village of Little Haywood.

As you clearly have access to the internet, I'm sure you can do your own search for more information.

 

[CustardAvenger]

John, can you (or any other readers) name any other brands of all-moulded caravans besides the Freedoms?

Thanks in advance!

I can think of three off the top of my head, but they are in the same vein as Freedom - Small, niche caravans.

Barefoot
Trip Buddy
Go Pod

 

[otherclive]

Eriba aren’t grp moulded but have a rock solid reputation for build quality. Just look at the residual values for relatively new ones and the old ones.

 

[Raywood]

Raywood, of course any COULD leak. That point is irrelevant, no offense intended.

And I am not asking for published statistics so that too is irrelevant.

You certainly seem to be arguing against the fact that not all caravans leak at equal rates. That's just not true; some are much more leak-prone than others. And it certainly seems that while foreign-built ones take a small % of the market, overall that small % has a much lower rate of leakage. Especially certain brands.
Also, satisfaction ratings are irrelevant. Feelings do not correlate to whether or not there was physical water leakage or lack thereof.

I am sorry you did not appreciate my reply which was meant to be as helpful as is possible nor was the tone of the reply justified.
Without statistics there is no way anyone can tell which make is most prone to leaks. Swift and Bailey are far bigger then the other three remaining UK firms and the numbers of continental models is so low as to be impossible to assess.
Bailey and Swift will appear more than the others because of the numbers they sell, they each sell more than the next three put together.
Satisfaction rates do not tell the whole story but they are the best we have. What they do show is the chances of you being happy with your purchase and although that includes lots of other things it does help as leaks are part of the reasons for dissatisfaction.
If you are buying new then possibly Swift having a non wood construction including the floor does mean a leak might be less damaging, Bailey and Coachman both use non wooden frames, but still have a wooden floor so again this reduces problems but nothing prevents leaks. Lunar and Eldiss both use wooden frames which can suffer if a leak is not dealt within a reasonable time but if serviced regularly should not be a problem.

 

[Parksy]

Raywood, of course any COULD leak. That point is irrelevant, no offense intended.

And I am not asking for published statistics so that too is irrelevant.

You certainly seem to be arguing against the fact that not all caravans leak at equal rates. That's just not true; some are much more leak-prone than others. And it certainly seems that while foreign-built ones take a small % of the market, overall that small % has a much lower rate of leakage. Especially certain brands.

Also, satisfaction ratings are irrelevant. Feelings do not correlate to whether or not there was physical water leakage or lack thereof.

The replies that have been offered on this thread come from experienced touring caravan owners who have contributed information based on their own real time experiences to this caravan forum for some years, plus the scarce information that can be gleaned from various owner satisfaction surveys.
With respect Chris, things that may seem to be irrelevant to you are entirely relevant to the sum total of the collective experiences of UK caravan owners who have tried to pass information to you.
If you have access to any information that would show the rate of water ingress involving any European caravan, whether UK or German built we would be most interested to see it.
Not all caravans leak, almost all caravan based internet forum comments are mainly concerned with the various problems and issues that arise from new or used caravans. We very rarely read about the overall majority of caravans sold here in Britain that don't leak and are trouble free.
The relatively small percentage of German built caravan owners who post on caravan forums in Britain could never provide enough accurate evidence to show that they are less prone to water ingress than UK built caravans.
When they do add comments the German built owners either give their views based on their own subjective feelings ( e.g. German=good because they own one) or they ask for information about the problems that they themselves have encountered.
The owner satisfaction surveys produced by Practical Caravan and other sources do use a matrix style 'tick box' information gathering method which, although any survey could be regarded as being subjective is pretty much all that we have in terms of accurate published information from owners of UK caravans.
The original question posed is almost impossible to answer with any degree of certainty, we can only answer truthfully according to our own individual experience, which in my particular case would be that my Abbey 620, bought from new in 2007 is as dry as a bone, but the various ones that I had before that were all damp to some degree.

 

[ChrisTurbeau]

Thank you for one of the few useful responses on this second page.

ProfJohnL, now I truly believe you were an engineer. A little advice: no need to waste your time or mine typing out "You can find it yourself" to someone who has used the Internet to come to a place literally designed to provide answers to questions about caravans, LOL... Better to say nothing than what you wrote there. :lol:

 

[ChrisTurbeau]

Thank you for the other useful reply here on this second page. I have indeed noticed that. And the two caravan repairmen I spoke with both said essentially the same thing.

 

[ChrisTurbeau]

Holy wall of text, Moderator!

Raywood and Parksy - no need to be so defensive about British caravans or perhaps the UK. If I didn't like the UK and her people I wouldn't travel back and forth so much.

The argument that "nobody knows which caravans leak more than others" just isn't true, and the rationale that "the reason we don't know is that they don't all exist in equal numbers" doesn't hold water (pun intended ). Do you think people don't know which automobiles are reliable because they're not all sold in equal numbers? People don't know whether a KTM is as reliable as a Honda? Appliance repairmen don't know whether a Bosch is as reliable as an LG? It just isn't so.

I get that you don't have an answer as to which leak. Thanks for sharing that and no need to belabour that point any further.

Moving on: one of you guys had a caravan that hasn't leaked. Bravo, and if it's because you serviced it religiously then kudos to you. But if you didn't service the seals and your strategy is to wait until there's evidence of damp then shame on you. :lol:

Best wishes to all

 

[otherclive]

Holy wall of text, Moderator!

Raywood and Parksy - no need to be so defensive about British caravans or perhaps the UK. If I didn't like the UK and her people I wouldn't travel back and forth so much.

The argument that "nobody knows which caravans leak more than others" just isn't true, and the rationale that "the reason we don't know is that they don't all exist in equal numbers" doesn't hold water (pun intended ). Do you think people don't know which automobiles are reliable because they're not all sold in equal numbers? People don't know whether a KTM is as reliable as a Honda? Appliance repairmen don't know whether a Bosch is as reliable as an LG? It just isn't so.

I get that you don't have an answer as to which leak. Thanks for sharing that and no need to belabour that point any further.

Moving on: one of you guys had a caravan that hasn't leaked. Bravo, and if it's because you serviced it religiously then kudos to you. But if you didn't service the seals and your strategy is to wait until there's evidence of damp then shame on you. :lol:

Best wishes to all

Are you naturally so abrasive or are you working at developing your skill in that direction?

 

[Dodger524]

Holy wall of text, Moderator!

Raywood and Parksy - no need to be so defensive about British caravans or perhaps the UK. If I didn't like the UK and her people I wouldn't travel back and forth so much.

The argument that "nobody knows which caravans leak more than others" just isn't true, and the rationale that "the reason we don't know is that they don't all exist in equal numbers" doesn't hold water (pun intended ). Do you think people don't know which automobiles are reliable because they're not all sold in equal numbers? People don't know whether a KTM is as reliable as a Honda? Appliance repairmen don't know whether a Bosch is as reliable as an LG? It just isn't so.

I get that you don't have an answer as to which leak. Thanks for sharing that and no need to belabour that point any further.

Moving on: one of you guys had a caravan that hasn't leaked. Bravo, and if it's because you serviced it religiously then kudos to you. But if you didn't service the seals and your strategy is to wait until there's evidence of damp then shame on you. :lol:

Best wishes to all

Are you naturally so abrasive or are you working at developing your skill in that direction?

More a case of us Brits being more thin-skinned than our friends from across the water perhaps!

 

[Parksy]

The guy obviously knows all of the answers already so I won't be wasting my time trying to offer any further advice based on over ten years of reading about damp caravans on this and other forums.
It's a shame that we're unable to tell him what he wants to read rather than the truth.

 

[Thingy]

More a case of us Brits being more thin-skinned than our friends from across the water perhaps!

Had to think about that one, then I realised you meant the Isle of Man. B)

The truth of this is that Caravan Manufacturers dont build caravans to leak, and there are so many variables to add to the lack of quality control duing manufacture. Weather, road stress, lack of maintainence, damage that you simply cannot point the finger at one make of caravan and say it leaks more than others.

As has been said, there hasnt been any sort of reliability study in the UK, such as the ones for cars, so the data you are looking for has never been collated.

 

[Raywood]

I am not defensive about British caravans, the build quality can be appalling at times, I think we have just been lucky so far, and do check for faults before taking delivery. On the current caravan the dealer parked it alongside our old one and we spent some time moving our gear across and checking it before the official handover.
If you can live with the weight I think Knaus feel the best built, but I am not sure the others continental models are seriously better. Coachman and Adria came out well in the PC survey although the C&CC did not show Adria in their version because of the low numbers. Again these are generally heavier built caravans and the problem with the rest might be they spend too much time getting the weight down and end up with flimsy models.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thank you for one of the few useful responses on this second page.

ProfJohnL, now I truly believe you were an engineer. A little advice: no need to waste your time or mine typing out "You can find it yourself" to someone who has used the Internet to come to a place literally designed to provide answers to questions about caravans, LOL... Better to say nothing than what you wrote there. :lol:

I'm sorry you didn't find my contribution to your taste.

My position is that I post on this forum becasue I believe I have a wealth of experience both as a caravanner and as a professional who worked within the industry. I try to stick to facts. The fact in this instance is no member of this forum has access to to every caravan manufacturers figures on the percentage of their caravans that have suffered leaking issues, consequently all you are going to get is the opinions.

I'm not saying opinions are automatically wrong, but If you look at the likely demographic of the members of this forum, the vast majority will be caravan owners, and its highly unlikely they will have experienced more than two or three different makes of caravan, and that will be further complicated by the probability each make will be sequential rather than from the same same period., so its difficult to reconcile like for like experiences of caravans of the same age and time.

A few forum member's have or have had a professional connection with the industry. We have a wider experience base, and generally will have seen some of the worst issues that can arise across more brands, but very few if any will have had experience of ALL brands.

Other factors, Most manufacturers produce more than one model, and due to such differences each model may have a different propensity to leaking. We glean from many postings on this and other forums, that caravan manufacturing is not consistent, and one caravan of the production line may be a real lemon, where as the next on might be gem. As a result and becasue the manufacturers do not publish fault information, no one on this forum can give you a concise Brand Y is better than Brand Z.

As for my comment to you about doing your own research, No one on this forum is paid or obliged to do research for other forum members. Some of us do undertake some projects to satisfy our own curiosity, and sometimes a thread will open up a subject which sparks a deeper interest worthy of more research, but searching for all moulded caravans is not for me.

This is an open forum, and any question posted is fair game for a reply from any registered member, I will continue to choose which threads I contribute to. I will not be dictated to by other posters about which posts to respond to or not. I always post in good faith, and I like you are entitled to my own opinions and will continue to express them provide they comply with the forum etiquette. Don't forget that you may ask a question that someone else was also considering asking, and whilst the replies you receive may not be to your taste, they may resolve a point for the other person.

I will point to the fact (see the Thank you numbers) that many members have expressed appreciation for the contributions I have made, and if they help one person to make a better informed decision, its worth it.

I hope you find the answers you are looking for, and if you decide to post again and if its a subject I have insight into I may respond.