Why Don't We Do It ???

[Val & Frank]

Here is a pic from a highly, and rightly respected forum member, so I don't doubt its authentic

http://www.dethleffs.de/2006/pictures/presse/pressebilder_aug_07/cara/beduin_emotion/original/bed_emo_sr_golf_a5.jpg
Why do we not tow up to the cars maximum tow limit here in the UK ?? When it is clear that on the continent they don't bother about this 85% guidance.Or have I got it wrong ??

Val & Frank

 

[Robert_374242026]

Whilst i have no proof ,when we were in Germany i am sure that they did not go by the 85% idea as they all had on our site at Dresden every thing barring the proverble kitchen sink and i would not be surprised if they had that.They were at least 95% saloon cars pulling these large outfits.I was getting a inferority complex with our Coachman 460/2 as peope were all gazing at us as they passed by on the site.

 

[RichardS1]

I have noticed a couple of continental rigs over here lately comprising of a twin wheeler and estate car. As far as I am aware accident figures with caravans on the continent are no worse than here in the UK. Maybe this outfit will be more common in the UK in the future as devices like the Alko ATC allow people to make full use of the towcars max tow. Also indicates that correct loading and driving manner are the most important aspects of a stable outfit.

 

[GrahamSouthBrum]

There is no law saying you must tow at 85%. The law says you cannot tow past the makers max limit.

I have been towing at a 1:1 ratio for years untill I bought a 4x4 2years ago.

Graham W.

 

[Val & Frank]

Or exceed a gross train weight figure ?? or will that be taken in to account with the max tow limit ??

Val & Frank

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Frank,

The overriding figure is the Gross Train Weight, which is not simply made up by adding the Gross Vehicle Weight of the tug and its Max tow limit.

In some cases you have to trade off either the trailer load, or load in the tug to keep the outfit within its GTW.

My Renault Espace is prime example of this. MIRO is 1700Kg, it has a Max trailer load of 2000Kg and a GTW of 3700. If I have a full trailer, the car has to be empty.

 

[rob_jax]

In the Netherlands and Germany, it's quite common to see mid to large sized saloon cars towing physcially large Hymer, Hobby, and similar caravans.

In both these countries, the maximum braked trailer weight is the limit - doesn't matter if it's a flat bed trailer or a white box on wheels. But the maximum towing speed is 80 kph (50 mph), unless (for Germany only) your combination qualifies for Tempo 100 - maximum of 3,5 tonnes GTW, shock absorbers, car has ABS, stabiliser, less than 100% match ratio, etc., etc., and then you can tow at 100 kph.

There is no specific UK style "85% guideline" in Holland or Germany - in Holland there was a 75% guideline between actual weights of laden car and caravan in running order, but as this says:

"De ANWB hanteert de norm dat het gewicht van de caravan niet meer moet zijn dan zo'n 75% van het gewicht van de auto." The ANWB no longer use the standard (the context was one of advice rather than legislation) that the caravan must be less than 75% of the weight of the car

You can easily see how the UK 85% guideline could equate to a NL 75% guideline of actual weights, but I'm not surprised that the advice has been withdrawn because at some stage you would need to weigh the car and caravan whilst in running order.

Robert

 

[Lutz]

As Rob_jax correctly states, subject to further conditions which he also specified, the weight ratio must be under 100% to qualify for towing at 100km/h in Germany. Clearly the rig in the picture would not qualify but that's something that doesn't bother everybody.

Incidentally, the weight ratio limit to allow towing at 100km/h instead of 80km/h was raised last year from 80% to 100% because statistics failed to show that the weight ratio within that percentage range had any effect on accident rate.

UK visitors towing in Germany should note that the 100km/h limit is not automatic subject to fulfilment of the technical conditions. Caravans towed at 100km/h need an appropriate sticker with an official stamp of approval from a German vehicle licensing office.

 

[Val & Frank]

A possible problem for Tempo 100 for UK caravanners ??

Borrowed from another forum

Last week I returned from our holiday which included towing on the German Autobarns. Previous towing in Germany had never been a problem, but now there is a speed restriction of 80km/hr when towing a caravan. Should be no problem, except that on the two lane Autobarns lorries are not allowed to overtake cars and caravans, resulting in lorries being retsricted to 80km/hr until they reach a three lane Autobarn and can overtake, which I am sure does not make them very happy.

This holiday I had an Austrian lorry driver behind me sounding his horn in anger at my speed. I stopped for lunch to let him pass, and of course overtook him stopping for his lunch and he got behind me again, and we went through the horn sounding again. When he was able to overtake he cut it rather tight. I had no problem with German lorry drivers who obviously new the rule.

Speaking to German caravanners on holiday they explained that as they had their caravans inspected every two years this enabled them to display a 100km/hr sign on their caravans and travel at speeds up to 100km/hr.

I am concerned that before long a frustrated lorry driver may cause a serious accident.

I don't want to travel over the speed limit and possibly get a large on the spot fine from the German police, so what can we do.

I intend to write to the C&CC to ask if they can make any representation to allow UK cars and caravans tow at the higher speed, but I doubt if this will achieve anything.

Opinions please Lutz, Rob

 

[Lutz]

Firstly, you are not correct in saying that lorries in general must not overtake on two lane autobahns. This only applies where signposted. On certain stretches this overtaking ban is extended to cover cars towing trailers as well (again, this would be signposted separately).

Secondly, the speed limit for lorries is the same 80km/h as the standard speed limit for caravans, so there is theoretically no reason why a caravan should hold up a lorry.

Often, however, frustrated lorry drivers are under such pressure of time from their employers that they ignore the 80km/h speed limit and drive at the 90km/h that the speed governers allow. As the lorry drivers know that cars, even when towing, are also capable of going at 90km/h, they can't understand why caravans should be holding them up.

Lorry drivers are generally well informed where speed traps are so they just go at 90km/h unless the gravevine ahead has told them to expect radar. That's why I tend to join the happy crowd of lorries and drive along with them unless their speed drops due to gradients etc.. That way, nobody gets upset; I drive a little faster than I should but in the knowledge that the lorry drivers know what they're doing as well. In general, I therefore set the cruise control at 88km/h. If there aren't any lorries about and I happen to get caught (which I haven't as yet in almost 20 years of caravanning in Germany), I'd still be right on the limit of what the police allow as a margin. Besides, except in extreme circumstances, German police do not normally stop you but send the summons to your home address later by mail.

Also, as a driver of a right hand drive car you're lucky because speed cameras are set take a picture of the person sitting on the left. By German law, not the holder of the car but the driver is responsible for any infringements so the face of the driver must be recognisable. The photograph of a right-hand drive car would show the front passenger so the police would not be able to prove who was actually driving. It must not show the person on the right as well as this is deemed to be misuse of personal data (it could be someone you wouldn't want your wife to see should she open the letter from the police)

So don't worry too much when driving in Germany. Just drive sensibly as you would elsewhere and nothing will happen.

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Frank,

Towing in both Holland and Germany, I tend to go with the flow - setting the speed limiter to 56 mph - exactly as Lutz says - and watch what the lorry drivers do.

Lorries may be restricted from lane 2 of a two lane autobahn on busy sections or by "rush hour" temporary exclusions - always clearly signposted (if a bit small) about every km on the side of the road. Outside of that it's not an issue.

You could always fit an 80 kph sticker to the rear of your caravan (whilst in Germany and Holland)

And it is possible for some UK vehicles to be Tempo 100 certified before leaving the UK, but only coaches at the moment (I think). But since the vehicle needs to be registered - that probably excludes UK caravans.

Robert

 

[Lutz]

Firstly, you are not correct in saying that lorries in general must not overtake on two lane autobahns. This only applies where signposted. On certain stretches this overtaking ban is extended to cover cars towing trailers as well (again, this would be signposted separately).

Secondly, the speed limit for lorries is the same 80km/h as the standard speed limit for caravans, so there is theoretically no reason why a caravan should hold up a lorry.

Often, however, frustrated lorry drivers are under such pressure of time from their employers that they ignore the 80km/h speed limit and drive at the 90km/h that the speed governers allow. As the lorry drivers know that cars, even when towing, are also capable of going at 90km/h, they can't understand why caravans should be holding them up.

Lorry drivers are generally well informed where speed traps are so they just go at 90km/h unless the gravevine ahead has told them to expect radar. That's why I tend to join the happy crowd of lorries and drive along with them unless their speed drops due to gradients etc.. That way, nobody gets upset; I drive a little faster than I should but in the knowledge that the lorry drivers know what they're doing as well. In general, I therefore set the cruise control at 88km/h. If there aren't any lorries about and I happen to get caught (which I haven't as yet in almost 20 years of caravanning in Germany), I'd still be right on the limit of what the police allow as a margin. Besides, except in extreme circumstances, German police do not normally stop you but send the summons to your home address later by mail.

Also, as a driver of a right hand drive car you're lucky because speed cameras are set take a picture of the person sitting on the left. By German law, not the holder of the car but the driver is responsible for any infringements so the face of the driver must be recognisable. The photograph of a right-hand drive car would show the front passenger so the police would not be able to prove who was actually driving. It must not show the person on the right as well as this is deemed to be misuse of personal data (it could be someone you wouldn't want your wife to see should she open the letter from the police)

So don't worry too much when driving in Germany. Just drive sensibly as you would elsewhere and nothing will happen.

Sorry, that should, of course, have been the 'grapevine', not 'gravevine'.

When, oh when, are we going to get an edit function?

 

[Lutz]

Hi Frank,

Towing in both Holland and Germany, I tend to go with the flow - setting the speed limiter to 56 mph - exactly as Lutz says - and watch what the lorry drivers do.

Lorries may be restricted from lane 2 of a two lane autobahn on busy sections or by "rush hour" temporary exclusions - always clearly signposted (if a bit small) about every km on the side of the road. Outside of that it's not an issue.

You could always fit an 80 kph sticker to the rear of your caravan (whilst in Germany and Holland)

And it is possible for some UK vehicles to be Tempo 100 certified before leaving the UK, but only coaches at the moment (I think). But since the vehicle needs to be registered - that probably excludes UK caravans.

Robert

Yes, I've seen 100km/h stickers on UK coaches as well but I don't know how they get them. I made some enquires at my local vehicle licensing office and they said that they will only issue the sticker if there is a corresponding entry in the vehicle log book that all technical conditions are fulfilled. This is perhaps easier and more worthwhile for coaches that regularly travel through Germany but it would be rather a hassle for anyone visiting the country only once.

 

[rob_jax]

Yes, I've seen 100km/h stickers on UK coaches as well but I don't know how they get them. I made some enquires at my local vehicle licensing office and they said that they will only issue the sticker if there is a corresponding entry in the vehicle log book that all technical conditions are fulfilled. This is perhaps easier and more worthwhile for coaches that regularly travel through Germany but it would be rather a hassle for anyone visiting the country only once.

Hi Lutz,

Tempo 100 examination of a UK registered coach is a service offered by VOSA (Vehicle and Operator Services Agency) which is part of the Department of Transport - the vehicle is then examined at one of the regional goods vehicle test stations.

http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosacorp/repository/Application for a Tempo 100 Examination (PSVC 1).pdf
Robert

 

[ncmorgan]

lutz

after looking at the picture and everyones views

would it be safe to pull a twin axle bailey with a mondeo

mondeo estate 2tdi 130bhp kerbweight of 1543 max pull 1800

bailey senator wyoming miro 1443 ,mtplm 1668

as we all know cars kerbweight are never right and would have to be weighted at a weigh bridge but is it not possible to pull a twin axle with an estate and still be safe and legal

also taking into account gross train weight

or is it only the safe route to use 4x4

 

[ncmorgan]

and also making sure the caravan never weighs more then the cars kerbweight,so am i right in thinking on the continent ,they never take kerb weight into account only max pull,sorry if this has been answerd

 

[ncmorgan]

ive just read towcar 4x4 thread and i dont want to start another debate,ive just answerd my own question by reading it

thanks anyway