Yet another gas question.

[Madpad_01]

Firstly sorry for posting another gas question.

I am debating about changing the gas bottle in my van. As I see it, I have 2 options:

1. Buy new flowgas light bottles.
2. Convert to LPG.

Flowgas.
Looking on the Flowgas website it informs me I need to purchase the gas and rent the gas bottle. Total cost around £100. Going this route my main question would be the gas regulator, will I need to buy and fit a new regulator?

LPG
After visiting the Carvan show I seen a stand for Gaslow. With these it would only cost me around £212 but it would come with regulator and adaptor to fit into my van. But it does weight similar to my calor gas bottle. Are these any good? I am aware of safefill but never seem to have any bottles in stock. Already looked at refill sites and I am happy at locations.

Any advise would gratefully received.

 

[Ern]

If your caravan is of recent manufacture, it will have a bulkhead mounted regulator. Bottle regulators are not required. A high pressure hose connects the gas bottle to the regulator, and it is this hose (some call it a pigtail) which may have to be changed if you switch to a different bottle brand/gas type. You can get bottle adaptors, which convert one type of bottle outlet port to another.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Firstly sorry for posting another gas question.

I am debating about changing the gas bottle in my van. As I see it, I have 2 options:

1. Buy new flowgas light bottles.
2. Convert to LPG.

Flowgas.
Looking on the Flowgas website it informs me I need to purchase the gas and rent the gas bottle. Total cost around £100. Going this route my main question would be the gas regulator, will I need to buy and fit a new regulator?

LPG
After visiting the Carvan show I seen a stand for Gaslow. With these it would only cost me around £212 but it would come with regulator and adaptor to fit into my van. But it does weight similar to my calor gas bottle. Are these any good? I am aware of safefill but never seem to have any bottles in stock. Already looked at refill sites and I am happy at locations.

Any advise would gratefully received.

Firstly all the gas used in caravans is LPG which stands for Liquified Petroleum Gas, and all it means is the gas has been prssureised which causes it to condense into its liquid form and its stored under pressure.

There are two types of commercial LPG used called Butane or Propane (there are actually many more variations) These two variants have many similarities and virtually all caravan appliances will work with either gas. The most significant difference between the two gas types is that Propane will work happily all year round in the UK, but Butane may stop working if the ambient temperature falls below 5C.

Both gasses develope too much pressure to us it directly so installations do require a regulator. Older UK caravans (pre 1990's) would have needed a 37mBar regulator for Propane, or a 28mBar one for Butane, Thes regulators used to be fitted directly to the gas bottles, but during the 1990's the EU (inc the UK) revised the regulators to be just 30mBar and fitted to the caravan rather than to the supply bottles.

So to your specific questions, whichever system you go for it will need a suitable regulator if it's not already included.

Either system may work for you, but you'll have to look at the costs if price is important to you. But you should also consider the convenience or other wise of each solution. If you stay with bottles, you can change a bottle easily when you run out. You may also use other brands of gas if you can't get the brand you presently have.

If you go for the fixed tank system, you have to take the caravan to the refill point. Now that may be more difficult than you think. Not all forecourt LPG sales will allow you to refill a caravan system ( that is matter for the forecourt to decide or it may be dictated by their policies, insurance or local bylaws.) So you cant always assume y can get it refilled.

Also as we move further towards EV cars, then number of LPG refilling points will reduce. This might affect your longer terms logistics.

 

[Buckman]

Firstly sorry for posting another gas question.

I am debating about changing the gas bottle in my van. As I see it, I have 2 options:

1. Buy new flowgas light bottles.
2. Convert to LPG.

Flowgas.
Looking on the Flowgas website it informs me I need to purchase the gas and rent the gas bottle. Total cost around £100. Going this route my main question would be the gas regulator, will I need to buy and fit a new regulator?

LPG
After visiting the Carvan show I seen a stand for Gaslow. With these it would only cost me around £212 but it would come with regulator and adaptor to fit into my van. But it does weight similar to my calor gas bottle. Are these any good? I am aware of safefill but never seem to have any bottles in stock. Already looked at refill sites and I am happy at locations.

Any advise would gratefully received.

The Flogas bottles are an expensive option and Claorgas although expensive is cheaper. If fitting the Gaslow system, you may need to take the caravan to a service station every time you need to top up as don't think they will allow a stand alone bottle to be filled.
We opted for the Safefill bottle and it has paid for itself. LPG refilling points will be around for many years, but probably not at service stations.

 

[Madpad_01]

Firstly all the gas used in caravans is LPG which stands for Liquified Petroleum Gas, and all it means is the gas has been prssureised which causes it to condense into its liquid form and its stored under pressure.

There are two types of commercial LPG used called Butane or Propane (there are actually many more variations) These two variants have many similarities and virtually all caravan appliances will work with either gas. The most significant difference between the two gas types is that Propane will work happily all year round in the UK, but Butane may stop working if the ambient temperature falls below 5C.

Both gasses develope too much pressure to us it directly so installations do require a regulator. Older UK caravans (pre 1990's) would have needed a 37mBar regulator for Propane, or a 28mBar one for Butane, Thes regulators used to be fitted directly to the gas bottles, but during the 1990's the EU (inc the UK) revised the regulators to be just 30mBar and fitted to the caravan rather than to the supply bottles.

So to your specific questions, whichever system you go for it will need a suitable regulator if it's not already included.

Either system may work for you, but you'll have to look at the costs if price is important to you. But you should also consider the convenience or other wise of each solution. If you stay with bottles, you can change a bottle easily when you run out. You may also use other brands of gas if you can't get the brand you presently have.

If you go for the fixed tank system, you have to take the caravan to the refill point. Now that may be more difficult than you think. Not all forecourt LPG sales will allow you to refill a caravan system ( that is matter for the forecourt to decide or it may be dictated by their policies, insurance or local bylaws.) So you cant always assume y can get it refilled.

Also as we move further towards EV cars, then number of LPG refilling points will reduce. This might affect your longer terms logistics.

Thanks Prof,

Every day is a school day. 😁

My main concern is weight followed by cost. I like the idea of the reduced weight in the flowgas bottles but balanced against cost don't think it is a viable option.

I would only ever getting bottles as I would not want to take my van onto a forecourt.

Didn't consider the impact of EV cars may have the long term pricing on gas.

 

[littlebasher]

I use Gaslow bottles with the direct fill adapter

Both my local suppliers are happy for me to fill a bottle on the forecourt, Morrisons allow it (while they still sell LPG!)

 

[Challenger]

Thanks Prof,

Every day is a school day. 😁

My main concern is weight followed by cost. I like the idea of the reduced weight in the flowgas bottles but balanced against cost don't think it is a viable option.

I would only ever getting bottles as I would not want to take my van onto a forecourt.

Didn't consider the impact of EV cars may have the long term pricing on gas.

It is becoming increasingly difficult to find forecourts that will allow you to refill bottles - and the suppliers are reducing.

MFG is planning to end the sale of auto-LPG on its forecourts | PetrolPrices

The Motor Fuel Group (MFG), the largest independent forecourt operator in the UK, has said that supplying auto-LPG is no longer commercially viable. The

www.petrolprices.com

We went down the 'Gaslight ' last year. It may be costly to start, but it's quite widely available, andabove all far lighter than steel bottles.

 

[otherclive]

It is becoming increasingly difficult to find forecourts that will allow you to refill bottles - and the suppliers are reducing.

MFG is planning to end the sale of auto-LPG on its forecourts | PetrolPrices

The Motor Fuel Group (MFG), the largest independent forecourt operator in the UK, has said that supplying auto-LPG is no longer commercially viable. The

www.petrolprices.com

We went down the 'Gaslight ' last year. It may be costly to start, but it's quite widely available, andabove all far lighter than steel bottles.

Also Morrisons are selling a few hundred of their forecourt’s to the MFG independent group who are now stopping sales of Autogas on their own forecourt’s. So they are unlikely to continue selling it from the acquired Morrisons forecourts.

 

[Mandarin]

Last year we changed from calor to flogas light. Given that we use 1 to two bottles a year the gas cost is irrelevant, however the weight saving was our reason to reduce nose weight, and its so much easier getting them in and out. We just needed new pigtails with a flogas connector (about £8 each). Which again has an advantage in the you don't need a spanner, so less hassle and a small weight saving. The gas bottle cost was offset by selling the calor bottles.

Final benefit was when everyone was desperate for calor gas last summer we just popped down to homebase and got a refill, no shortage for flogas.

 

[Paullus1959]

Another vote for SafeFill bottles but, as already pointed out places selling LPG are becoming fewer and fewer due to the storage installation maintenance and insurance costs.

 

[otherclive]

Another vote for SafeFill bottles but, as already pointed out places selling LPG are becoming fewer and fewer due to the storage installation maintenance and insurance costs.

A farmers outlet near us have removed the Autogas pump, and shock horror are installing a twin outlet EV rapid charging station.

 

[Buckman]

A farmers outlet near us have removed the Autogas pump, and shock horror are installing a twin outlet EV rapid charging station.

That is strange as many farmers probably still use LPG and are highly unlikely to use and EV or recharge at an EV rapid charging station when they probably have 3 phase on the farm. Very short sighted of the so called farmer's outlet, but their choice.

 

[otherclive]

That is strange as many farmers probably still use LPG and are highly unlikely to use and EV or recharge at an EV rapid charging station when they probably have 3 phase on the farm. Very short sighted of the so called farmer's outlet, but their choice.

I suspect the majority of on farm vehicles use Red diesel so it would only be the road and family vehicles that use diesel, petrol or Autogas. No idea what percentage of farmers normal road vehicles use Autogas but I don’t think it’s very high. It is a large outlet and whilst it serves the farming community it is also used by many non farming customers. My friends and I have used it since the mid 1980s for a variety of needs. So as electric is becoming more popular and Autogas is tailing off it may make economic sense to install charging points.

 

[Buckman]

I suspect the majority of on farm vehicles use Red diesel so it would only be the road and family vehicles that use diesel, petrol or Autogas. No idea what percentage of farmers normal road vehicles use Autogas but I don’t think it’s very high. It is a large outlet and whilst it serves the farming community it is also used by many non farming customers. My friends and I have used it since the mid 1980s for a variety of needs. So as electric is becoming more popular and Autogas is tailing off it may make economic sense to install charging points.

Actually I wasn't think of vehicles, but for other reasons like refilling gas bottles?

 

[Beachball]

At moment we have a 6kg Calorlite i would like to change Safefill because it light to carry

 

[Johnb]

At moment we have a 6kg Calorlite i would like to change Safefill because it light to carry

Not only are the Safefill bottles light but they are translucent. No weighing or swinging bottles around to judge what's left in them. Nor a need to carry a spare "just in case". (In truth we do carry a part used Calorlite bought many moons ago as a reserve but have never had to use it.

Before any trip it takes no time at all to check gas levels. If low then simply top up! No waste and last time I more or less filled the bottle from empty I think I was charged around £9.00. Costs a few £ if just topping up.

It must be said that we are fortunate in having a local garage (small repair place not forecourt variety) where I fill. If you top up as required then it's not impossible to only ever use a local "fill" providing your full bottle will last the duration of your longest holiday.

We use gas every day for cooking and BBQ when in Europe. Always enough left on return home, after say 6 weeks abroad, for at least one subsequent short trip.

Never bothered to work out the true costs, including the bottle purchase some years ago, I'm probably at least breaking even but the convenience of topping up is the massive advantage.

I do have to say though that my aversion to all things Calor was a deciding factor for the purchase. The current and lately price charged for Calor is simply robbery I think, and I prefer not to be robbed on a fairly frequent basis.

 

[Beachball]

Not only are the Safefill bottles light but they are translucent. No weighing or swinging bottles around to judge what's left in them. Nor a need to carry a spare "just in case". (In truth we do carry a part used Calorlite bought many moons ago as a reserve but have never had to use it.

Before any trip it takes no time at all to check gas levels. If low then simply top up! No waste and last time I more or less filled the bottle from empty I think I was charged around £9.00. Costs a few £ if just topping up.

It must be said that we are fortunate in having a local garage (small repair place not forecourt variety) where I fill. If you top up as required then it's not impossible to only ever use a local "fill" providing your full bottle will last the duration of your longest holiday.

We use gas every day for cooking and BBQ when in Europe. Always enough left on return home, after say 6 weeks abroad, for at least one subsequent short trip.

Never bothered to work out the true costs, including the bottle purchase some years ago, I'm probably at least breaking even but the convenience of topping up is the massive advantage.

I do have to say though that my aversion to all things Calor was a deciding factor for the purchase. The current and lately price charged for Calor is simply robbery I think, and I prefer not to be robbed on a fairly frequent basis.

Grateful for the information you have provided, very thorough and useful, always good to have more so that we can make the best decisions and travel safely and with the best equipment.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I strongly suspect that Calors continued survival is an indication of their relative convenience and availability (most of the time) across the UK. Because caravaners seem to be prepared to pay a bit extra for convenience rather than looking for the nth degree of economy. Generally speaking if you search round you can find LPG refills at a lower cost, cost but it might limit you to just one local brand of seller.

 

[Buckman]

I strongly suspect that Calors continued survival is an indication of their relative convenience and availability (most of the time) across the UK. Because caravaners seem to be prepared to pay a bit extra for convenience rather than looking for the nth degree of economy. Generally speaking if you search round you can find LPG refills at a lower cost, cost but it might limit you to just one local brand of seller.

A big problem with Calor is that they no longer do the Calorlite bottle and the metal bottle eats into your already meagre payload. Then there is the rip off cost of exchanging the bottle. We don't use a lot of gas, but over the past 5 years the Safefill bottle has paid for itself in more than one way. Their biggest market is Holland!

 

[Johnb]

I strongly suspect that Calors continued survival is an indication of their relative convenience and availability (most of the time) across the UK. Because caravaners seem to be prepared to pay a bit extra for convenience rather than looking for the nth degree of economy. Generally speaking if you search round you can find LPG refills at a lower cost, cost but it might limit you to just one local brand of seller.

I'm sure you're right in one respect - Calor is the de facto name for camping style gas used everywhere in the Leisure Industry, in this country and beyond, from Camping Sites to Narrow Boats and the rest.
Since Calor is the most frequently stocked then convenience will pay a role in its popularity.

We do, however, seriously part opinion when you say "caravaners seem to be prepared to pay a bit extra for convenience rather than looking for the nth degree of economy"

Calor is NOT just "a bit extra" nor are those who shun it "looking for the nth degree of economy".

Calor is obscenely overpriced when compared to a Safefill re-fill. The savings made over time are not a result of "looking for the nth degree of economy". They are significant savings made that for many of us serve the extra benefit of removing our custom from Calor.

But however you view financial savings the extra undeniable benefits of Safefill are both convenience and weight. The "top up" whenever you need is a critical factor in removing one small but not insignificant source of stress (the Calor guessing am I full enough game, and waste scenario).

The simple question I would ask those who use Calor is would you change to Safefill if you had a local source for refill and finding "Morrisons" and the like no longer required?

 

[Gafferbill]

......but everyone does caravanning differently.
We never use any gas if we have EHU which in our case is 2/3rds of the time.
If we are off grid then we use the 13kgs Calor cylinder which provides gas much cheaper than their smaller cylinders.
By their nature off grid sites are considerably cheaper for the pitch so Calor prices for gas are not an issue for us in the overall cost of caravanning.

 

[RogerL]

The simple question I would ask those who use Calor is would you change to Safefill if you had a local source for refill and finding "Morrisons" and the like no longer required?

The simple answer in our case is - No!

We always use EHU sites so the annual gas usage would never save enough money to cover the initial cost of a Safefill cylinder - the weight saving would be of little concern to us as we don't take nearly as much paraphernalia as many caravanners - and unlike many caravanners, we have to forward load to get the noseweight UP!

I do agree that Calor prices are obscene but then so are the prices of any caravan-specific accessory.

 

[Buckman]

We have the Safefill 7.5kg cylinder and have topped up when the liquid seen is about an inch from the bottom and have never paid more than £8. To exchange the smaller 6kg Calor cylinder cost us about £27 and that was the last time we refilled the Calorgas cylinder about 5 years ago.
Our Safefill is still in pristine condition unlike many years ago when the brand new Calor gas cylinder was exchanged for a scratched and very old looking Calor cylinder. Okay it is hidden away in the front locker but that is not the point.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I am not supporting any particular brand as there are many equally valid suppliers, its a question of choice of cost/vs convenience.

As for the condition of calor bottles (which could also apply equally to other rental schemes) unlike personally owned bottles, rental bottles are inspected each time before they are refilled, and also checked after filling for any potentially serious defects. The condition of the paintwork is not the criteria for the test. Periodically all calor bottles (and I am also sure similar schemes are used by other rental companies) take returned bottles out of service, and thoroughly strip and retest the bottles just as they would new bottles. Any that fail are scrapped.

With such regimes in place you should have a higher confidence in the continued use of rental bottles even over an owners own bottles as age increases.

For those who own their own bottles, you should be submitting your own gas bottles for retesting (including hydraulic high pressure testing at least every 10 years. Check with the manufacturer of your bottles.

 

[otherclive]

I am not supporting any particular brand as there are many equally valid suppliers, its a question of choice of cost/vs convenience.

As for the condition of calor bottles (which could also apply equally to other rental schemes) unlike personally owned bottles, rental bottles are inspected each time before they are refilled, and also checked after filling for any potentially serious defects. The condition of the paintwork is not the criteria for the test. Periodically all calor bottles (and I am also sure similar schemes are used by other rental companies) take returned bottles out of service, and thoroughly strip and retest the bottles just as they would new bottles. Any that fail are scrapped.

With such regimes in place you should have a higher confidence in the continued use of rental bottles even over an owners own bottles as age increases.

For those who own their own bottles, you should be submitting your own gas bottles for retesting (including hydraulic high pressure testing at least every 10 years. Check with the manufacturer of your bottles.

I contacted Safefill re how and where to have a 10 year test carried out. Their answer was totally non helpful to the extent of being no use whatsoever. They have no system for a bottle return for checking, nor could they advise where to take one for checking. But instead I carried on with Calor which we didn’t use a great deal even on our busiest seasons.