Zafira Tourer Have I bought the worse towcar ever?

[JoanneLowe]

Hi, complete newbie and dont know a thing about anything caravanning yet so please be kind on my first post...!

We are a very young family and we bought a Vauxhall Zafira Tourer 2.0 diesel initially to cater for baby seats and pram. We knew that once the kids got a bit older that we would love to have a caravan and I automatically assumed that due to its size (being a 7 seater) that it would have no probs in towing a decent sized, 4 berth van.

Well we made a start today looking at buying a second hand one and came home pretty disheartened - according to my registration document, my technical permissible maximum towable mass of a trailer is only 1150 which means that practically all of the caravans we looked at are too heavy for it, even under their unladen weight.

Might be clutching at straws here, but could anyone tell me if this the figure we use? I can;t find its kerb weight info anywhere in order to calculate the 85% ratio.

Just for info, we don't really want to buy anything else at the min (saving for the caravan and the Zafira is pleasingly economical). Just to give you an idea of what we would love - a 4 beth, something with a bunk bed for the kids and a separate shower if possible.

Some advice would be very much appreciated.

Thanks

Jo

 

[Damian]

If your V5C stipulates a max trailer weight of 1150Kg, then that is what you are restricted to , regardless of kerbweight.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Joanne,

I'm sorry your plans have been thwarted. Unfortunately as Damian states, the figure on you V5c is the maximum that particular vehicle is allowed to tow. It an anomaly in Vauxhall's normally reasonable tow limits for their vehicles. It stems from a technical issue with the engine cooling in your particular model.

There is nothing you can do to increase this models small tow weight limit, so to be practical you do need to look for another tow car. Ironically the petrol versions do have a bigger tow limit and the Mk2 diesel version of the Zafira does have a better tow weight limit.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi Jo, welcome to the forum, unfortunately as the previous answers said if the V5 says, 1150kg that is it,
although seeing as you are new some explanation, may be of assistance, at this point.
first you can ignore any reference to the 85% recommendation, in this instance, because your Zafira will weigh considerably more than 1150kg not sure off hand but it is something around 1480kg so well over what it needs to be in order to reduce the towing ratio.below 85%. for example I have a 1.7 diesel Meriva the Zafira's little brother it has a kerb weight of 1412kg and a tow limit of 1200kg that works out around 80%. your margin is greater than that.

second as John has said the reduced tow limit is to do with the cooling system not the ability to tow, so you could tow at the max without major issues, in fact you can tow a greater weight than the 1150kg if you do some sums.
I will explain B) the max weight as on the V5 is the max tow load permitted this is not the same as the vans MTPLM [this is the maximum the caravan can weigh] the tow load is the actual weight pulled by the car, this is less than the caravan weight is, because the noseweight on the tow ball is carried by the car and not towed.
by finding the cars noseweight say 60kg this can be taken off the tow load and added to the van weight. effectively increasing the weight that can be towed by an extra 60kg so a van of 1210kg could be towed legally assuming the noseweight was 60kg it could be higher than that.or lower the meriva has a 50kg noseweight. so the total trailer weight for the meriva could be 1250kg see where I am going.
thirdly I really think you have to widen your scope of vans there are plenty of lightweight vans around but may be just a tad smaller than you are looking at just now, try googling used 4berth vans under 1200kg and see what comes up. and then go look at them, dont forget a full awning doubles the size of a van, the only time everyone is inside is at bed time, but as soon as the kids get a taste for the caravan life they will want to sleep outside in the awning [mine did] widen your horizons a bit, look at as many as possible the right van is out there somewhere.

 

[MichaelE]

Out of interest what is the model and year of your car as i seem to remember that in the last few years the Vauxhall Zafira tourer has been tested in the towcar awards? It seemed to have a lot more towing ability that what you state?

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Out of interest what is the model and year of your car as i seem to remember that in the last few years the Vauxhall Zafira tourer has been tested in the towcar awards? It seemed to have a lot more towing ability that what you state?

In the original post the Joanne says "according to my registration document, my technical permissible maximum towable mass of a trailer is only 1150" . You can't go against the vehicle's registration document. However, different models could have different towing abilities.

 

[JoanneLowe]

Hi again, and thank you very much for all the advice given. Interesting about taking on board the nose weight of the van - I hadn't considered it which might come in handy if we find a van slightly over the 1150 although I always feel a bit twitchy about going near or over anything that is the maximum for the car - I don't want to strain it?

Colin - I know I am going sound like a right Vauxhall nerd but our other car is same as yours a diesel Meriva 1.7 with the fancy doors - I just checked the V5 for that one and I cant believe its 1200kg - 50kg more than the Zafira!!

Michael - its a ZAFIRA TOURER EXCLUSIV ECOFLEX CDTI(130) - it has a start stop function and to be honest not that quick in accelaration but cruises nicely on the motorway and pretty economical which is good with a family!

 

[JoanneLowe]

Woo, found something interesting...

Following the advice on here, I have just googled "maximum permissible towing weight braked "zafira tourer" to see what the other variations of Zafira are and came across a post on another caravan forum here -

http://www.caravantalk.co.uk/community/topic/79030-wrong-max-towing-weight-on-vehicle-reg-document/
He has bought exactly the spec as me but is saying that the V5 is not correct and that he is taking it up with Vauxhall!?? I am trying to follow what the posters are saying but its abit beyond my knowledge. can anyone simplify it to me?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Joanne,

Confusing isn't it!

Firstly I must appologise for two small errors I made in my first post. When you told us it was a diesel Zafira with a low towed weight limit, I assumed it was the Mk1 model, and I misread your post because I was expecting to see a towed weight limit of only 1050kg.

So you do actually have the later model, and yes it does have a slightly increased towing capacity, and I thought it had been increased by more than 100kg - I was wrong.

Colin is quite correct about the nose load being transferred to the car so that does give you the potential for a little more load, BUT, if you are working to the absolute limits, then you must make sure the that extra weight is genuinely on the nose, because otherwise it appears as part of the trailers axle load and that would exceed the cars stated towed weight limit.

And there is another important factor to consider when trying to use this extra bit of load, and that is how to measure the actual nose weight correctly, which must be done at the same hich height as when the the caravan is coupled to the car. If you want more information on this please ask.

I have looked at the web site you suggested and it's full of assumptions and it uses some potential unreliable information.

The original poster made a serious mistake. He relied on the information he found on whattowcar.com. It is a sad fact that none of the online matching services can be relied on to have the correct information about all cars and caravans, so you should always double check their information is correct before relying on their results.

The other thing he did is to assume that other similar models results could apply to his vehicle - wrong, each car even down to the trim level can have different towing limits. You have to ensure the data used is for your exact make, model, fuel, engine size, power output, year, trim, and body style.

It is very rare for the V5c to wrong, but you can at least check it against the cars weight plate on the car.

The Vauxhall dataplate is usually fixed to the front RH door frame and will carry the following information:-

1 Manufacturer
2 Type approval number
3 Vehicle Identification Number
4 Permissible Gross Vehicle Weight
5 Permissible Gross Train Weight
6 Maximum permissible front axle load
7 Maximum permissible rear axle load
8 Vehicle-specific or country-specific data

If you take the value at No 4 (GVW) away from the value at no 5 (GTW) you will get the vehicle towed weight limit. You can safely use this as your guide.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi Jo, yes the Meriva is 1200kg with a max noseweight of 50kg as I stated in my last answer,
does seem odd that a bigger vehicle tows less doesn't it but it does happen. it depends on the vehicle spec and construction, one thing not mentioned in the thread was the the zafira's 7seats the implications are obvious.
the more seats there are the more weight the gross vehicle weight will be, given that the ratio between the GVW and the gross train weight GVW . will be smaller. to accommodate the vehicles higher carrying capacity.

to understand what they are talking about, go out to the car have a look on the door pillar or under the bonnet at the VIN plate, you will see 4 weights two smaller ones for front and rear maximum axle weights and two larger ones.
the smaller one of the two is the gross vehicle weight write it down, the larger one is the gross train weight, [this includes the max trailer weight] write this down also, then do the sums take the smallest figure away from the largest one, what is left is the maximum trailer weight that can be towed legally. they argue that this is the weight that VOSA or the police would use, to determine if the unit was over loaded.
while in essence this is true but there are other factors to consider, a vehicle manufacture has to make the products idiot proof. and work in all conditions. in certain conditions an absolute maximum towing capacity may not be ideal so they reduce the max tow limit. to compensate, strangely or obviously [depends on how you look at it] this is more common with MPV's because of the load carrying capacity of the base vehicle., ie while it may tow the max trailer weight with two people on board load it up with 7 people then trailer weight ideally should be lower.
the manufactures figure of 1150kg as stated in the V5c would assume the maximum trailer weight was being towed with 7 people on board. and therefore would/could be lower than the plated figure on the VIN plate.
do the sums and see what the figure is,
hope this helps.
ps, the prof posted while I was writing this,

 

[MichaelE]

Out of interest what is the model and year of your car as i seem to remember that in the last few years the Vauxhall Zafira tourer has been tested in the towcar awards? It seemed to have a lot more towing ability that what you state?

In the original post the Joanne says "according to my registration document, my technical permissible maximum towable mass of a trailer is only 1150" . You can't go against the vehicle's registration document. However, different models could have different towing abilities.

I know you have to stick to what the V5 says. The Zafira tourer 2.0 diesel on test was in the the1600 kgs category, im guessing the lower limit on yours must be engine related?

 

[Jo-AnneFairway5402010]

I'm sure when I was looking to change the kerb weight was quite good. I'd ring Vauxhall head office I had to about the insignia. Vauxhall are the worst Manu telling u kerb weights.

 

[MichaelE]

Hi again, and thank you very much for all the advice given. Interesting about taking on board the nose weight of the van - I hadn't considered it which might come in handy if we find a van slightly over the 1150 although I always feel a bit twitchy about going near or over anything that is the maximum for the car - I don't want to strain it?

Colin - I know I am going sound like a right Vauxhall nerd but our other car is same as yours a diesel Meriva 1.7 with the fancy doors - I just checked the V5 for that one and I cant believe its 1200kg - 50kg more than the Zafira!!

Michael - its a ZAFIRA TOURER EXCLUSIV ECOFLEX CDTI(130) - it has a start stop function and to be honest not that quick in accelaration but cruises nicely on the motorway and pretty economical which is good with a family!

Looking on the Vauxhall website the specs are as follows
WEIGHTS AND TOWING DATA
kg
Gross vehicle weight
Max. towing weights
Trailer with brakes (without brakes)
1.8i 16v VVT (140PS) 2150
–
1.4i 16v VVT Turbo (140PS) 2310 1300 (750)
1.4i 16v VVT Turbo (140PS) Start/Stop 2320 1300 (750)
1.4i 16v VVT Turbo (140PS) automatic 2340 1300 (750)
1.6CDTi 16v (136PS) ecoFLEX Start/Stop 2410 1450 (750)
2.0CDTi 16v (110PS) 2415 1300 (750)
2.0CDTi 16v (130PS) ecoFLEX Start/Stop 2340 1200 (750)
2.0CDTi 16v (130PS) 2410 1300 (750)
2.0CDTi 16v (165PS) 2430 1500 (750)
2.0CDTi 16v (165PS) automatic 2445 1450 (750)
2.0CDTi 16v (195PS) BiTurbo Start/Stop 2420 1400 (750)

More than what the V5 says but strange why its lower than all the other zafiras? Must be something to do with the diesel Ecoflex engine as the petrol version can tow up to 1450 ??

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

2.0CDTi 16v (195PS) BiTurbo Start/Stop 2420 1400 (750)

It's an interesting bottom line as I'm just looking at Vauxhall's 2015 brochure for the Insignia. With the same engine as above the tow weights are:

1700 braked, 750 unbraked (VED £110 per year)

If you look at the Insignia with the slightly lower power engine (2.0CDTi 170PS Start/stop ecoflex) then the tow weights are:

1800 braked, 750 unbraked (VED £30 per year)

Very confusing figures. :S

 

[ProfJohnL]

It's important to remember that most manufacturers will put a disclaimer on all advertising and information brochures and web pages of errors and omissions excepted. This basically means you cannot trust brochures and web sites.

The fact is that if the outfit is stopped and checked by the authorities, they will use the visible evidence of the vehicles weight plate and or the recorded information on the V5c as their reference for weights limits. They will not accept information found in brochures or web sites.

This saga goes to prove why its unsafe to assume anything about the towing capabilities of different models even if they share the same engine/transmission. The legal towing capability of a car is not simply governed by the power output/torque of the engine. Its about the whole car package, and this is where the Zafira proves the necessity of checking all the data, specific to a particular model.

I cannot stress enough the importance of checking the towing information about cars from the most reliable sources i.e the Vehicle weight plate and the V5c.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi all,
IMHO while the Prof is correct and 3rd party information cannot be relied upon for a true refection of any vehicles capabilities the only true reflection of a car towing ability is in the vehicle weight plate.
this is unique to the vehicle in question, and takes account of the specific details regarding model trim ect,
I personally would not take the V5c figures as gospel because like other 3rd party sources they can get it wrong.
but rarely admit any mistakes, a friend is in dire straights at the moment due to them getting it wrong.
he bought a car, signed the papers and used his new car, for 6weeks until the V5c came back. being careful he read the new document, and noticed they had put the wrong chassis no on the V5c two numbers were the wrong way round.
he send back the V5c notifying them of the mistake and expected a new V5c to arrive.
what he got however was a letter from the DVLA stating that on checking the registration document he sent back found the vehicle with the chassis numbers printed on it did not exist. and therefore had cancelled the registration, entirely :woohoo: :woohoo: despite the fact they used was the printed V5c they sent out wrong in the first place.
so he has a car with no registration number as it has been cancelled no MOT no tax,,and no insurance as all of the above are registration dependant.and his new/old car sits in the garage, looks like it may be a long process to get it reversed though that was 3months ago and is still not resolved.
so just because it is written on the V5c doesn't mean it is right,

 

[MichaelE]

I was highlighting the difference in the towing ability across the range.
When cars are tested and sites like whattowcar get there info from what the manufacturers provide them with as they dont have the V5's? so you could buy a car on recommendation only to find that the info they provided could be wrong?

 

[ProfJohnL]

I was highlighting the difference in the towing ability across the range.
When cars are tested and sites like whattowcar get there info from what the manufacturers provide them with as they dont have the V5's? so you could buy a car on recommendation only to find that the info they provided could be wrong?

Hello Michael
Are you asking a question? Or telling us? its not clear from your post.

Obviously we don't know exactly how the web site operators manage to install the data provided by the manufacturers into their databases, but as soon as there is any human intervention, the accuracy of the data can be compromised. There is also the occasions where the car or caravan manufacture does not provide all the data for all their models. which is where many of the issues arise. The user is tempted to select what they assume is a similar model on which the calculations are to be based.

Examples of this can occur where a car manufacturer sells what appears to be the same car to two different countries. It may have the same engine and gear box. but delving into the specification you may find differences in the way the weights are recorded, or limits set to suit local customs and regulations.

So yes, if a customer bases their decision to purchase a car or caravan only on the recommendations from these matching websites then there is a real possibility they may end up with an incorrect match. or they may get the impression that either their car or caravan is not suitable for their needs.

I'm as guilty as anyone in so far that we go into considerable details on some of these weights issues, and I know it can appear to be quite daunting to try and work it out yourself. but the actual calculations are not particularly difficult, but it's understanding what data you need, and where to find it. It's become confusing as the same criteria can have many different names or acronyms, and sometimes similar sounding descriptions can actually be quite different in their detail and effect

The difference between weights and limits is sometime easily misunderstood, as are some of the traditions and recommendations so often quoted without thinking. And the Government's own web site often seems to confuse the issues by inaccurately paraphrasing the actual regulations, which has led to misinterpretation.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi John,
so are we to assume then that given the incorrect data publish from all sources that the only true figures one can rely on are stamped on the the vehicle weight plate, which is what I believe.
no data from any 3rd party can be relied on and indeed should one be stopped and weighed at the road side it is the weight plates that would be used to calculate if the combination is within limits.

 

[MichaelE]

hi John
Sorry its a bit of both ? They surely must get the info from the car manufacturers as they wouldn't have the V5's to hand?

 

[ProfJohnL]

hi John
Sorry its a bit of both ? They surely must get the info from the car manufacturers as they wouldn't have the V5's to hand?

Hello Michael,
Again I'm not clear what your comment actually refers to:-
Is it " where matching services get their data from?" or
"How enforcement officers can check a vehicles specification?"

If you are stopped at a roadside check, the officers are not concerned about checking your vehicle meets the manufacturers brochure specifications, they are only concerned with its compliance with it's registered details. Those details are specific to each individual vehicle and are held on the Gov'ts registration system, and that is where the enforcement officer will access the necessary information they need. They would not try and contact the manufacturer.

The govts registration office has to receive all the relevant information about each individual vehicle before it can issue a V5c. Due to manufacturing tolerances, that could mean that two consecutive cars off the production line may both conform to the manufacturer's specification for the model, but may have minor variations in some measured values supplied to the registration office. It can also mean that any mistake in recording the data for the registration document could also be passed through and included in the document. Unfortunately once published the V5c represents the vehicles registered specification, and that is what enforcement officers have to work to.

Matching services are not set up to have details of every single vehicle produced, but they do try to take the generalised specification for each model. You would have to check with each service to find out where they get their information from, but they will not have access to the V5c information. instead they will take the manufacturer's published model specification. Bearing in mind that published material often does not come direct from the technical department, but usually it has been chewed by the marketing department, there is a possibility of errors in translation. Depending on how the matching service receives the information, they may need to manually add the data to their databases, and that is another area where errors can so easily arise.

In addition, It may be the manufacture has not supplied information on all the model variations they produce to the matching services, but they will have produced all the data needed to produce the V5c to the registration office.

These are some scenarios that can explain the differences that can arise between various source of information.