1991 Dangerous Dogs Act.

[Lord Braykewynde]

I agree Brian, something must be done but do you, like me, have no confidence in our law makers to address the problem. The radio presenter on BBC just now came as near to the truth as I've heard it. These type of breeds are a statement and tell you a lot about the owners. They wouldn't be seen dead walking a poodle or any small breed for that matter. Poodles aren't macho and somehow don't look right wearing a studded leather collar and thick chain lead.

My question of how they carry on breeding these animals after the DDA in 1991 was answered on the BBC website --

"They (owners) just breed something which is slightly different and call it American bull terrier or Staffordshire bull terrier cross which falls outside the legislation," he said.

It has emerged that the dog's owner, Ellie's uncle, was warned last June about the animal's behaviour.

Apparently it's attacked people before and also other dogs :O(

 

[LMH]

Results are expected from a post-mortem examination on a dog that killed a five-year-old girl will determine whether the animal was a breed subject to the Dangerous Dogs Act.

A post-mortem examination on Ellie revealed she died of "severe head and neck injuries", police said.

Owners of pure-bred pitbull terriers are legally to blame for attacks made by them under the provisions of the 1991 Dangerous Dogs Act.

The tragic death of a child described as "the loveliest girl you could ever meet' has left the community around Knowles House Avenue, in St Helens, Merseyside, in shock.

The dog's owner - Ellie's uncle - had been officially warned about his pet's behaviour in June last year.

A spokeswoman for St Helens Council said the warning letter had been sent to the uncle, named locally as Kiel Simpson, after a neighbour said the animal had attacked his dog in May.

Several people on the council estate are reported to have said the animal had violent tendencies and at least one other neighbour claimed he and his dog were attacked by Reuben.

Jackie Simpson, 46, had been baby-sitting her granddaughter while the mother, named locally as Lyndsay, was out celebrating New Year.

Ms Simpson also suffered serious injuries in the deadly assault.

She underwent emergency surgery to tendons in her arm and serious wounds to her thumb and elbow at Whiston Hospital but is now stable, according to police.

St Helens council and Merseyside Police are looking through their records to find out more about the dog's past.

They are having what police described as a "routine meeting' about Reuben, which is closed to the public.

The fianc

 

[Val & Frank]

The owner of the Dog should be charged with Manslaughter. After all owning a potential killer dog,is like owning a gun. Or knocking someone down when causing death by drunk driving.

Val & Frank

 

[LMH]

For clarification purposes:

Pitbull: (1st picture)

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n172/lhousley/pitbull.jpg
SBT: (2nd picture, my own dog)

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n172/lhousley/diesusephoy-1.jpg
SBT cross (3rd picture, my own dog)

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n172/lhousley/daisyuse-1.jpg
Lord B is perfectly correct in his quote, some people do breed something slightly different in this country and call it American Bull Terrier, or Stafford cross. Bad news for Staffords.

 

[cris_408518]

Our dogs have moved home since my accident and had not seen me for some months, living only with my wife most of the time they have become very protective of their new environment and did not take kindly to a "4 legged me" wandering in on there territory.

Our old golden retriever was not child friendly as it had next to no conract with young children.

I understand that the attack on the young girl was in the early hours of the morning and can only guess as to how and why the meeting between child and dog ended in such a disaster.

An old friend spent his formative years being brought up with EBT's as loving very child friendly dogs and in recent years has had to have two EBT's put down as unlike the other dogs he has owned along side them they have turned on him and his family.

His take and my point is not a criticism of EBT's as a breed as he knows the dogs as owner and child friendly, but an example of bad breeding by greedy breeders.

My daughter had to have her young pedigree 8 month dog put down this summer after spending several thousand pounds at the vets.

Cause - greedy breeders making money rather than caring for the dogs and breeds future. The vet has had the breeder reported and closed down we understand. The dogs in question had many misformed and mal formed joints that caused pain in the dogs and "uncharateristic temper tantrums".

Breeders have a lot to answer for in our experience.

 

[LMH]

Pitbull:

 

[LMH]

SBT (my own dog)

 

[LMH]

SBT cross (my own dog):

 

[LMH]

Hi cris

Very sorry to hear of your daughter's experience, she must have been absolutely gutted, what a terrible time she must have had.

You make a valid point on this comment:

'My daughter had to have her young pedigree 8 month dog put down this summer after spending several thousand pounds at the vets.

Cause - greedy breeders making money rather than caring for the dogs and breeds future. The vet has had the breeder reported and closed down we understand. The dogs in question had many misformed and mal formed joints that caused pain in the dogs and "uncharateristic temper tantrums".

Breeders have a lot to answer for in our experience'.

----------

That's why potential responsible new owners should thoroughly research their intended breed to find out about if that particular breed is know to carry hereditory problems, likely temperament, adult height, weight, whether they are high maintenance (eg. plenty plenty of exercise as some need more than others). The list goes on.

There are unscrupulous breeders out there and my advice to anyone wanting to purchase a pedigree is to join the breed forums and clubs, get to know the type the breeders produce, how many litters they produce per year, they should all charge a similar amount for puppies. Do this for several months before any planned purchase. Ask to see written proof of any health checks recommended for that particular breed. Ask to see the dam with the litter. (Sometimes it might not be possible to see the sire as it might live elswhere, but maybe that could be arranged, if it's a show dog sire, you might be able to see it at a show). There is a wealth of knowledge to be gained from the internet. Visit local dog shows, get to know breeders that way too.

Mongrels are a bit different - you pay your money and you takes your chance. I have a rescue dog and probably wouldn't get another.

Incidentially cris, out of interest what breed did your daughter buy?

Lisa

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

I can see the sense about your post Lisa where you say people who are thinking of getting a particular breed should research it and learn about its needs and temperament before buying a puppy. The vast majority of people I'm sure already do that as we did with our two breeds. The difference lies with the owners of these dangerous breeds, most of them are incapable of stringing together a few comprehensible words let alone being able to read.If this dog and owner are found to have other complaints against them they should do as Frank said and charge them with manslaughter. Also heads should roll with the authorities if those complaints are proved to be founded and nothing was done about the dog before it killed. Unfortunately if someone reports a dog to the police for attacking theirs it holds very little importance, that is until incidents like this happens.

I just read a sad story where a family in Ireland were out walking with their Lab and was attacked by a pit bull terrier. The owner said their Lab most likely saved one of their childrens lives, who was being mauled by the pitbull, by attacking the pitbull but the Lab died in the fight.

 

[Colinn]

I have to say I'm in the manslaughter camp, and it would be a good idea if ALL dogs had to be registered (dog licence??) in order that they may be formally warned of the responsibilities of ownership. If people were made aware that they will be held responsible for their dog's attacks they might well think twice about owning them. It is better to destroy a suspect dog than risk it destroying a child.

 

[Colinn]

I have to say I'm in the manslaughter camp, and it would be a good idea if ALL dogs had to be registered (dog licence??) in order that they may be formally warned of the responsibilities of ownership. If people were made aware that they will be held responsible for their dog's attacks they might well think twice about owning them. It is better to destroy a suspect dog than risk it destroying a child.

...they may be formally warned (owners, that is!...)...

 

[cris_408518]

The dog concerned cost

 

[Danny_5134221]

As all of you were I was saddened on hearing the news of this dog attack and the tragic loss of a young life.

My own views on this topic of dangerous dogs I cannot write because of the strong lanuage I would like to use but I think that dogs and children do not mix.

I am an animal lover and I dot not wish harm to any animal but like I said dogs are dogs and there is always the unknown with a dog.

However much you might think you know your dog or a dog, there is always that animal instinct inside their brain and that is of defensive attack.

All it takes is a child to wind the dog up, pull its tail or ear and then snap, its too late, a nasty bite or even worse.

When I say dogs and children dont mix they should never be left alone together, and I know lots of you have dogs and kids etc, but this is just my own veiws on this subject.

 

[LMH]

Hi cris

Thanks for your reply. Your post is very concerning indeed. I'm not really familiar with Mastiffs but at the very least, I would have expected the breeder to have had the parents and subsequent litters checked under the BVA/KC Elbow Dysplasia Scheme as I know mastiffs are prone to that.

Even with my limited knowledge of the breed, I would have said

 

[Lol1]

I don't want to lessen what went on, at this sad time. What happened to the young girl and her Grandma was truly horrific, and action is needed because of it.

True, dogs and kids don't mix. There again, what does mix with children? Would you leave your child with someone you know, quite sure they wont come to, or create harm? Would you leave your child with say, your Granddad? He who is getting on in age and forgets about the pan of soup thats boiling away on the hob? You can wrap children up in cotton wool and defend them from all dangers, but is that in the kids best interest? As far as dangerous dogs are concerned, yes we need to be rid of them, but don't tar all dogs with the same brush and then turn round and say it's in their nature to kill and maim. It isn't. The symbiotic relationship between man and dog has been around for centuries. If you must blame someone, blame the men that breed these dogs and treat them the way they do. They are the real criminals.

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

I don't want to lessen what went on, at this sad time. What happened to the young girl and her Grandma was truly horrific, and action is needed because of it.

True, dogs and kids don't mix. There again, what does mix with children? Would you leave your child with someone you know, quite sure they wont come to, or create harm? Would you leave your child with say, your Granddad? He who is getting on in age and forgets about the pan of soup thats boiling away on the hob? You can wrap children up in cotton wool and defend them from all dangers, but is that in the kids best interest? As far as dangerous dogs are concerned, yes we need to be rid of them, but don't tar all dogs with the same brush and then turn round and say it's in their nature to kill and maim. It isn't. The symbiotic relationship between man and dog has been around for centuries. If you must blame someone, blame the men that breed these dogs and treat them the way they do. They are the real criminals.

Exactly Lol, and that's why manslaughter charges should be brought. Hopefully if this happened and they were made to serve time in might sink in to these no-brainers skulls. Then again it might not because these dogs amongst this kind of ummmmm person *cough* are status symbols just as ASBO's have become amongst their ilk.

 

[Danny_5134221]

My grandad died during the second world war fighting for our rights and freedom, but I would leave my kids with their grandad's without any worry, leave them with a dog ? No way

Without opening up a can of worms here I was not taring all dogs with the same brush, just stating that you are dealing with the unknown. Have you ever noticed a dog snarl and show its teeth at children ? I have and thats enough to say leave well alone, however much of a pet old Shep might be I think you are dealing with a ticking bomb.

 

[Lol1]

Hi Danny. I never really met my Grandfathers, both of which died when I was very young. My only memory is of a Great Uncle who entertained troops during the second world war, with his fire eating act. He was a very good man. However you misunderstand me. I could easily have substituted Granddad with Grandma, next door neighbor, close friend, older brother/sister, workmate, auntie, child minder, all people you know and should be able to trust. If you can genuinely turn round and say I trust them all, you do indeed live well. You could also substitute dog, with cat, parrot, cow, sheep, gerbil etc etc etc. All of which can cause real damage.

There are as I said before, some bad dogs out there, and they are bad for a number of reasons. But at the end of the day it is a human that is at fault. Properly supervised (dogs and kids), no children should come to harm even when dogs are present.

 

[LMH]

Hi Danny

I have owned several dogs over my lifetime, mostly pedigrees but a couple of mongrels.

In relation to your question - 'have you ever noticed a dog snarl and show its teeth at children?'

I can honestly without a doubt in my head say NO to that question. Maybe you have just been unlucky in the dogs you have come across.

In my own personal opinion it's not good practice to trust any dog 100% with children and other vulnerable people, the same as I wouldn't trust certain people I have come across in life with my child.

I've had my daughters friends here (who don't have dogs) and when the children were younger, I saw these children (on different occsions):

stick sweets on my dogs tail/body

pull my dogs ears/tail

poke my dog in its eyes

kick my dog

All these incidents were seen by me and dealt with appropriately. My dog never snarled, nor growled, nor retaliated. That's what some children (and adults) do.

Lisa

 

[cris_408518]

For Lisa.

My daughter worked for the breeders who have other business apart from dog breeding and she knew the dogs but was not involved with the breeding side of the business.

The dog concerned came from a VERY TOP award winning line of dogs and not in any way did it have temper tantrums itself.

It was suggested by the "specialist vet" and other vets that "some dogs" who end up with physical problems through breeding problems have temper problems that could be linked to their discomfort.

As dogs cant say how they feel I guess we will never know, but having had more than my own fair share of aches and pains this year I can assure you that I have not been meek and mild even tempered through out my physical problems.

Having been away,most of my daughters dog experience has been relayed via phone, email and my wife.

So far my daughters experience shows evidence of show dog breeding circles being - Closed Shop , Close Kit , Stick Together , possibly corrupt !

Mastiff's grow very large and at first the dog seemed fine and was given a clean bill of health by independent vets. He limped one day and the vet decided he'd probably "knocked himself". As an expensive dog he was very cosseted and taken to the vet if there was any slight sign of a problem. A limp returned and after expensive investigation a problem decribed to me as like " flaking bone" was diagnosed over a period of weeks and a growing spurt the dog had other problems and ended up at a top

specialists at great cost as he was dearly loved. The dog was

growing and some bones did not grow at the same pace and joints were not fully developed or still in full contact withing a few weeks.

The father dog has been shipped out of the country again, they think this is to cover the problems and a way of recouping money as we now have reason to belive it has been sold to an un-suspecting breeder.

It is a messy affair and opens the world of pedigree dog breeding and some people in dog show circles to a lot of questions.

My daughter and partner drove thousands of miles to shows and to visit breeders to build a relationship and get get the late dog and have done the same with their new dog and hope this time they have been dealing with somebody whose love of their dogs is genuine not just business and money orientated.

 

[Colinn]

I agree 100% with those who believe that we humans bear the greatest responsibility for so many actions - usually retaliatory - by dogs.

A dog is totally dependent on its owner for EVERYTHING it does. It could not exist in society for long without human support (even strays scavage for human waste.)

More than anything, a dog depends on its owner for discipline and control.

The trouble is that too many humans simply cannot be trusted with dogs of ANY breed, but the problem is much worse if such humans own dogs that are big enough and powerful enough to maim and kill.

Since humans can't be trusted, then society has good reason to fear the animal, so sadly the animal is maligned- because of the failing of humankind.

Lisa speaks eloquently about the proper way to handle dogs - but she is not the problem - the problem lies with people who don't handle them responsibly and for me, they must be held to account.

 

[LMH]

Can't reply to your response proper cris as I'm a bit upset.

The witch hunt has started with my breed now. Took Diesel (aka Gaylord) out this morning (on his lead) and was verbally abused by a man and a woman. Their tirade of abuse was relentless and totally uncalled for.

My lovely little dog (whom I believe should be an ambasador for the breed) was verbally abused too.

People on here who know me, know I can stand my ground but I honestly don't believe we deserved that.

Lisa

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Unfortunately you have to make allowances for those kind of people Lisa. Not nice at the time and I don't know why they do it. I suppose all dog owners feel as if they are under threat now, especially from those who TOTALLY HATE dogs, come hell or high water. I know a woman who hates all forms of life except humans (thankfully for her children) but that's her loss. In my mind she's a sad pathetic creature.If it was a phobia I could understand it but it isn't. She's missing so much out of life IMHO. Just one more point to bring up Lisa, what a wonderful, wonderful name Diesel is. I would much prefer you to call him that in the forum because GayLord plays up with my homophobia ;O) Not all of us Lords ponce around in tight breeches and powdered wigs squealing with delight - hehheh!

 

[JackieandSteve_5080688]

Yet again i`m lost for words and so angry how this could of been allowed to happen. Don`t people have a brain. Why do people have this type of dog when they have no idea how to bring it up properly. But i suppose that`s pretty obvious with "some" which leads me to my next bit

We have a lot of talk here about dangerous breeds and why people have them and the sort of people who have them.

What a lot of people see is jack the lad walking down the road with the untrained dog on his arm and then see what hits the headlines which obviously is bad news as good news about these sort of dogs doesn`t sell half as well. They don`t see a very big percentage of very competent owners who raise their dogs correctly and know how to handle them.

Lord B writes:

"These type of breeds are a statement and tell you a lot about the owners. They wouldn't be seen dead walking a poodle or any small breed for that matter".

Lord B I`m wondering what it tells you about me. Ok picture this A 5`1" 7st 3lb 43 year old woman walking down the road with a Rottweiler and a Cocker Spanial. (Yes you guessed right she`s a small breed ) lol

Lord B you also write:

"The difference lies with the owners of these dangerous breeds, most of them are incapable of stringing together a few comprehensible words let alone being able to read."

I can read and write i`ve even managed this post all on my own :0)lol

Anyway i`m trying to make it lighthearted as i don`t want to come accross as agressive (as i`m not) about things that have been said i just wanted to say to anyone who judges people that own what people perceive as a dangerous dog that we`re not all muscles and tattoos (ok i do have a small tattoo on my ankle ) and we don`t parade around the streets with an untrained dog just to make us feel big as nothing would do that for me ) Some of us love our dogs and bring them up correctly. We don`t all let them run riot attacking people.

I try very hard to bring my Rottweiler up correctly even more so because of the breed she is. When her dinner goes in her stand she wouldn`t move an inch until she has been given the command.

Her recall is 99% so she is leashed in the park when there are other dogs and people about. I do this not because she fights because she doesn`t i do it because i respect people possibly might not like her because of the breed she is.

She sits at kerbs without even a small command.Only last week on our way back from our walk we got to the end of the road and stopped at the kerb to wait and cross and she knows at that point that her bum has to hit the floor immediatly and she will look at my face until i say walk. A car was coming and it in a little old couple who slowed right down and pointed at her smiling from ear to ear and i felt so proud of her.

I am not niave and do know what she "could" be capable of if she wished to but i`m never going to put her in a position to find out unlike the recent events.

Ok i`ll finish now just by saying please don`t tar us all with the same brush or our dogs. There`s a lot more good than bad out there.

Jackie x