2005 Bailey Pageant leaking

[Jules_ht]

Hi All,

On our most recent trip away it became apparent that the front or our van is leaking water.

Took it to a professional who immediately pointed out cracks in the plastic front panel, where it meets the awning rail, on both sides. A few similar cracks aroung the rear panel where it meets the awning rail and again at the high level lights.

I'm not sure I'm read to chop the van in or sell it on to some unsuspecting soul, nor am I ready to pay more than the £5K the van is worth tip top, replacing the panels.

So I'm left with two choices; first a £3K bill for a bodge job - removing the awning and roof rails, drilling the end of the cracks out, and reseal the lot (and waiting for new cracks to form and to be back to square one). Second is let it slowly rot and try to lengthen the remaining life in the van as best I can.

I'm not sure the first option represents the best value- that £3K could go towards a new van.

So the final option- prolong it's life and save up for a few years (the predicted lifespan until it dies). Covering it will help apparently, so a few hundred quid on a cover seems prudent. That then leaves me with deciding what else I can do from home. The roof rails (a) seem pretty well sealed, and (b) look easy enough to loosen, fill with sealant of some type and screw down again. The awning rail who knows- I can't obviously see how to remove it, so any instructions on where the screws are and how to get to them, would be appreciated. This then leaves the cracks.

The first option I can see is to smother them with silicone and leave them as they are- knowing that each year I'll have to remove the sealant and reapply. But that won't stop them spreading. Understand the concept of drilling the end of the crack to stop them spreading. So I'm minded to pop a few holes at the end of the cracks, maybe hollow the cracks out a bit, and fill with sealant. Again in the knowledge that this won't last forever- but really we're about fighting the clock at this stage.

My question really (nowithstanding the request for advice on awning removal) is how effective it is likely to be, to drill and widen the cracks, and fill them, with the awning rail still on (whether or not I then mastic some sort of plate over the top of it butting on to the awning rail).

Then keep it under a cover and see how many more years I can get out of the van before it really starts to rot. At this stage the damage appears fairly minimal-;only just started seeing any evidence of any damage - slightly spongey side panel, ever so slight warping of the front window-sill chip boarding. Appreciate that the worst of it is likely to be unseen.

Any input welcome.

 

[otherclive]

Sorry to hear of your problem with damp. We had a brand new Series 5 Bordeaux and in year 2 it had to have the front panel replaced. In year 3 the rear panel was replaced. Both had similar issues to yours and it was down to faulty production techniques. No option is ideal but I'd go for your latter option until it hits rock bottom value.

 

[biley_adam]

We too have an S5 2005 Pageant. We have 1 tiny hairline crack on the rear. I have drilled the end of the crack, and then used a soldering iron to plastic weld the crack. I'm currently monitoring to see how things go with it.

Have you tried contacting someone who deals with ABS repairs?! It will come in a hell of a lot cheaper than 3k.

How widelarge are the cracks. If there is no missing plastic and it's a hairline crack, apparantly they are much easier to repair.

 

[glenno]

Ive a series 5 senator with the same issues that i solved diy. Ive a protometer damp tester so i know this. The hairline cracks along the sides are unlikely to let much damp in. However the roof straps need removing and the sealant cleaning and if you do this you will find much wider cracks in the abs panels under the joint that are the main leak path. End drill the cracks the fill with proper caravan sealant then refit the straps.and overseal. This will more or less cure your corner leaks. The windowsill damp is likely the rubber seal for the front windows which can be brought on a roll and cut to length and diy fitted. When you remove the old you will see there is very little sealant there from the factory. While at this it is worth taking of the front window hinge rail and checking for cracks behind and resealing like the roof straps. I did all this 2 years ago and my senator has stayed dry since. Ive not disturbed the awning rails.

 

[Jules_ht]

Hairline, about 10-15mm long extending from the awning rail. The chap reckons it's where the awning rail screws were put in.

The more I think about this the more I want to take the work on myself. If I can swap an engine this should not be beyond me. Just need to get all the right kit together- mastic, sealant, stainless screws, some sort of filler for the ground out cracks, and somewhere dry to work (and I think I have that covered). Do I need to be worried about locking damp in though?

 

[emmerson]

Go for it - what have you got to lose?

 

[Woodentop]

Pageant what? There's about 6 or 7 different Pageant model.

Series 4 or 5 or 6?

 

[Jules_ht]

Pageant what? There's about 6 or 7 different Pageant model.

Series 4 or 5 or 6?

Only one of which was manufactured in 2005 as far as I'm aware; series 5.

Rear left

Rear Right

Front left

Front right

It appears to only be leaking at the front.

 

[Dustydog]

Our old Series 5 Pageant Vendee 2005, like Clive's needed a new front ABS panel due to cracking caused by poor manufacturing. I'm surprised yours has lasted so long , presumably because it wasn't stressed at point of manufacture.
As the others have said I'd do a repair.
Removal of the awning rail is time consuming. Look closely and depending on your model it may be in two sections. Remove the grey plastic centre strip . You will then see the screws. If you have plenty of time you can carefully remove the rail . Not easy as the original sealant really grips. And even if you get it off without damage it will take you ages to remove the old sealant.
All surfaces must be thoroughly cleaned. As for the ABS there are plenty of firms doing plastic welding eg motorcycle fairing repairers. The centre strip, same rules apply. If you replace the awning rail with new you will need to get someone with a rail spreading tool to open up the slot to allow awning entry to the rail". You will also need a special tool that helps reinsert the new plastic trim..
You must use new stainless steel screws. I'd give it a go and perhaps get the plastic welding done professionally. Make sure the panel isn't stressed when rescrewing and sealing.

 

[otherclive]

Hairline, about 10-15mm long extending from the awning rail. The chap reckons it's where the awning rail screws were put in.

The more I think about this the more I want to take the work on myself. If I can swap an engine this should not be beyond me. Just need to get all the right kit together- mastic, sealant, stainless screws, some sort of filler for the ground out cracks, and somewhere dry to work (and I think I have that covered). Do I need to be worried about locking damp in though?

Once water ingress has been stopped the internals will start to dry out. Hopefully you've not suffered structural damage.

 

[glenno]

The cracks are caused by the screws because Bailey didnt use big enough pilot holes during construction. Senator 6 and Pageant 7 didnt suffer as much, because by 2008 they'd learnt their lesson.

 

[Hutch]

Same thing happened to my 2013 Coachman, crack starting from a screw in the awning rail, possibly not pilot drilled, Coachman repalace back panel under warranty.

 

[Jules_ht]

OK I've got a (hopefully fairly decent) breathable cover arriving today (Maypole 4 ply) and in the interim between now and being able to reseal the roof rail and possibly the front windows (and maybe the awning rails incl drilling and filling the cracks) will cover it up to prevent further water ingress.

What's the verdict on leaving a roof light open (under the cover) to help any moisture in the van now escape?

 

[ProfJohnL]

OK I've got a (hopefully fairly decent) breathable cover arriving today (Maypole 4 ply) and in the interim between now and being able to reseal the roof rail and possibly the front windows (and maybe the awning rails incl drilling and filling the cracks) will cover it up to prevent further water ingress.

What's the verdict on leaving a roof light open (under the cover) to help any moisture in the van now escape?

Having got a known water ingress problem, then the most important thing is to stop the ingress, which you are attempting to do with a cover. Obviously a proper repair is needed in the long term, and I know that is your intention.

If you leave the structure in a sodden condition. it will encourage mould and rot problems, so I think your best course of action is:

Remove all the soft furnishings to a safe dry place ( probably at home)

Park the caravan where it will receive as little direct sunlight as possible, and leave the cupboard and draws open to maximise free air access to all the caravans nooks and crannies.This will help to prevent temperature differentials in different parts of the caravan which will causes thermal air currents and will move moisture around inside the caravan.

Normally free ventilation with the outside air is teh best way to minimise condensation and increased moisture from normal use, but because there is currently excess moisture in the caravan from a water leak, Close all the van openings (temporarily) and install a dehumidifier until damp test reading fall below about 15%

When the readings are about 15% you are about as dry as you will achieve. at which point remove the dehumidifier and open the caravans ventilation and perhaps a roof light as long as its under the cover to maximise free ventilation.

Obviously get the repair done as soon as possible, and I wish you all the best with it. Form having seen a number of caravans at a repair shop,for damp issues, its rather like an ice berg, where you only see about 10% of the whole problem, until you start to strip it down.

Good luck

 

[Jules_ht]

Well the cover is on, nice snug fit. Not easy on you own though, even at 6 foot 5!

Was chatting this though with a few friends at the weekend. One is a biker and has some fairing repair stuff for the cracks. Another a car window fitter who has some clean up stuff for me and advice on prep. Another who is a surveyor, who has been raving about this stuff http://www.rooflock.com/products/rooflock-tape/ 10 years from a tape! Might just plaster the entire van in it

 

[biley_adam]

I have just used something very similar on our S5 Pageant. I ran it the full length of the roof joints to prevent them failing at a later date. I used something called EternaBond and it wasn't particularly cheap! But great for the peace of mind knowing it won't leak at what is a common point.

Interstingly your cracks on the back pannel are in exactly the same location as ours!

You can cut some small bits from under your ABS pannel (where you can't see) and mix with acetone. This will make a colour correct filler to platic weld the crack. Then drill a small hole at the end of it and scrape a V shape into the crack, then fill with the already made paste.

 

[Jules_ht]

Well here we are, 5 months down the line and we went to van yesterday. All seemed good, cover still nice and tight and looking brand new.

Opened up enough to get in, and the place did not reek of damp so that was a nice start. Had left all the doors and cupboards open with cushions stood up.

Got the damp meter, and all the seating area round the front was between 10% and 12% all over, including the areas that were visibly damp and discoloured late last year. Up in the lockers was a similar story, noting over 12% anywhere in the van that I could find. Went in through the front locker and reached up to the timbers there (which were literally dripping with rain water last autumn) and again c11% moisture.

So unless I'm totally missing something, the cover appears to have done exactly what I needed it to do- dry it out and stop it descending into a rotten pile of woodlouse fodder over the winter months.

Have had another look at where the ingress problem might be. The roof to front panel join the guy I bought the van off has told me needed repair, and looking at it, there is silicone oozing out of the screw holes so he's obviously bodged it. Contrary to the advice of the place that looked at it (who said the issue would be the cracks), I have a feeling that this is the problem.

I've just ordered some Rooflock tape (at £66 delivered for 7.5m of 100mm wide tape, including some of the surface cleaning spray, it's not cheap) and plan to just tape straight over the top of the join and ensure I get a good seal with both the roof and front panel, and also the top of the awning rail on both sides. The way they all meet makes it look very much like it can be sealed straight over the top without leaving any little cracks or gullies or gaps for the water to seep into, even at the ends of the metal joint on either side of the van.

Will aim to get that taped up in the next couple of weeks (potentially tomorrow) so we can get away. Have been petrified to (a) look at it, and (b) get it out before doing something to it, will be great to feel like we're moving forward (even if it turns out the leak is from elsewhere and I have to look at other areas- at least we can be sat in it watching what is happening, as opposed to leaving it sitting rotting for 6 months would have been the case were it not for the cover).

 

[Dustydog]

Jules,
I have done my own but using Sikaflex 512.
The front and rear panels do crack but not normally that bad
Where you see a small crack just smear some sealant to seal it.
All the original Bailey screws are sealed both before and after the screws are inserted. So I think what you see may well be original rather than a botch job. The hardest part of this job is removing the old sealant :woohoo:

 

[Jules_ht]

I'm thinking the leak (which was too big, in my totally non expert opinion, to have been caused by a few hairline fractures), is along the great big roof to front panel join that looks like where two carpets are joined together. The previous owner told me he'd resealed it, and I can see evidence of silicone.

Question is, how best to prep the area. Would carb/brake cleaner work? I know white spirit is supposed to leave residue that stops mastic from sealing, hopefully this tape is less fussy stuff.

 

[Dustydog]

I'm thinking the leak (which was too big, in my totally non expert opinion, to have been caused by a few hairline fractures), is along the great big roof to front panel join that looks like where two carpets are joined together. The previous owner told me he'd resealed it, and I can see evidence of silicone.

Question is, how best to prep the area. Would carb/brake cleaner work? I know white spirit is supposed to leave residue that stops mastic from sealing, hopefully this tape is less fussy stuff.

Jules,
For the record the sealant is not”silicone”.
To the best of my knowledge there is no substance which will dissolve the old sealant other than good old elbow grease B)

 

[otherclive]

I would try White spirit on a small area to see if it will remove the sealant. If it does then go over it afterwards with methylated spirit to remove the white spirit residue.

 

[Hutch]

There is now a solvent used for Bathrooms that can remove silicone sealant, BUT, big but, I don't know what this would do to the Panels. When my back panel cracked I cleaned the area with acetone, And Used clear " Gorilla tape " to cover the area, worked well until the warranty repair was done.

 

[otherclive]

There is now a solvent used for Bathrooms that can remove silicone sealant, BUT, big but, I don't know what this would do to the Panels. When my back panel cracked I cleaned the area with acetone, And Used clear " Gorilla tape " to cover the area, worked well until the warranty repair was done.

I’ve used Wurth silicon remover around an ABS bath. It had no detrimental effects.

 

[Jules_ht]

Well I got the 4" wide version of the Rooflock tape, and spent a few hours cleaning the van and applying the tape a few weeks ago. The tape itself has a very tough UV resistant backing, and the adhesive is really thick (2mm) grey gunky and incredibly sticky gluey substance that is more like mastic than regular glue. Applied it with a little roller bought off eBay for about £6.

Although there were no signs of leaks at the rear I did that too.

For the micro cracks I drilled the end of them with a 2mm bit and them applied triangles of the tape.

We were out in some pretty torrential down-pours last weekend and there was not a sniff of any ingress where previously it had been easily evident. So fingers crossed the "nothing we can do, you might stretch 2 more years out of the van" death knell tolled by the (albeit very friendly) professional i went to see, was somewhat premature.

 

[otherclive]

Rooflok has an excellent reputation and I’m sure that when the van finally expires those seams will still be intact. I used an American tape, think it was called Eternaband, and if you look at the YouTube videos of US RVs being water sealed some of the older ones are literally held together with the stuff.

Hope your efforts bring success it sounds good so far.