I would say that the way Buckinghamshire County Council is interpreting the Road Traffic Act in this instance is worth challenging in court.
Lutz Im being carefull in what Im saying here, your right but could you afford to or take a chance to contest what a council`s enterpretation of an act is? Ive had 30 years of enforcing legislation, legislation says one thing but natural justice says another.And no I was like this when I was in the jobLutz said:
i have to agree with derek......i work with a driver who drove into a 17.5 tonne weight limit with a 44tonne artic he argued with the police officer that the hgv was empty but the police officer said that because the gtw of the hgv was over 17.5 tonne,that was the reason he was getting a fixed penalty notice
hgv dave
hgv dave
I guess it depends a bit on whether one would have to cover the costs of contesting legal action against the local authority out of one's own pocket. I've got legal assistance insurance which would cover me, so I'd have no qualms of taking them on.
just a question.........it has been said in this post that a car and caravan/trailer outfit can be classed as 2 seperate vehicles
my question is.......if that is correct why is a caravan/trailer not subject to an annual mot?
a hgv semitrailer is subject to a mot each year and just like a hgv tractor unit,has to have a safety inspection every 6 weeks.
now i dont think caravans should inspected every 6 weeks but before you can say it is a seperate vehicle i think that at least it should have a mot and also be insured.reading the small print of my insurance policy,the caravan/trailer that im towing is insured
also dont you think that if the government was able to get road tax on a caravan/trailer they would have done so by now?
hgv dave
my question is.......if that is correct why is a caravan/trailer not subject to an annual mot?
a hgv semitrailer is subject to a mot each year and just like a hgv tractor unit,has to have a safety inspection every 6 weeks.
now i dont think caravans should inspected every 6 weeks but before you can say it is a seperate vehicle i think that at least it should have a mot and also be insured.reading the small print of my insurance policy,the caravan/trailer that im towing is insured
also dont you think that if the government was able to get road tax on a caravan/trailer they would have done so by now?
hgv dave
It is the plated weight (or mass if you wish to be correct) which counts. This has been challenged in Court, and the ruling was as stated. There is an area near to here which is commonly known as the Blidworth Triangle (surrounded by the A60, A614 and now the A617) where there is such a mass restriction. One of the reasons for the restriction was that although there are no weak bridges etc, its the sheer size of vehicles that was the problem. Two artics simply wouldn't be able to pass one another in places and there's no return. Before the restriction, there were regularly problems.
In the early days, there was the plated/actual argument. Several drivers were prosecuted based on the plated masses, and ALL either pleaded guilty, or were found guilty.
You could have the same argument over Manufacturers and Ministry masses. For instance, a design mass could be 50 tonnes, but in the UK "normal" LGV's are restricted to 44 tonnes at the moment, and the Ministry Plate will indicate this, despite the Manufacturers Plate possibly saying different. If an artic was weighed and found to be in excess of the 44 tonnes, the driver and company would be prosecuted (dependent upon the percentage over) based on that limit, not the Manufacturer's design.
Quite honestly, I think common sense prevails. If you're driving a vehicle which is designed to exceed a certain mass (i.e. 44 tonnes) and there's a sign restricting this to 17 tonnes (usually "except for access!") then it shouldn't be used. Very often, where there is a weight limit, it usually applies to a certain class of vehicle. I have found this to be the case in France. The 3.5 limit signs often (although not always) depicts a Goods Vehicle. Indeed, we recently had the dilemma with our outfit which weighs well in excess of the 3.5 tonnes, but we couldn't have got to the campsite without passing the restriction sign, as I would suggest the majority couldn't.
In the early days, there was the plated/actual argument. Several drivers were prosecuted based on the plated masses, and ALL either pleaded guilty, or were found guilty.
You could have the same argument over Manufacturers and Ministry masses. For instance, a design mass could be 50 tonnes, but in the UK "normal" LGV's are restricted to 44 tonnes at the moment, and the Ministry Plate will indicate this, despite the Manufacturers Plate possibly saying different. If an artic was weighed and found to be in excess of the 44 tonnes, the driver and company would be prosecuted (dependent upon the percentage over) based on that limit, not the Manufacturer's design.
Quite honestly, I think common sense prevails. If you're driving a vehicle which is designed to exceed a certain mass (i.e. 44 tonnes) and there's a sign restricting this to 17 tonnes (usually "except for access!") then it shouldn't be used. Very often, where there is a weight limit, it usually applies to a certain class of vehicle. I have found this to be the case in France. The 3.5 limit signs often (although not always) depicts a Goods Vehicle. Indeed, we recently had the dilemma with our outfit which weighs well in excess of the 3.5 tonnes, but we couldn't have got to the campsite without passing the restriction sign, as I would suggest the majority couldn't.
Once again, the weight limit applies to the vehicle, not to the outfit. Maybe artics are treated differently, but a car towing a caravan are two vehicles.
I don't wish to be A PARTY POUPER HERE but is THE PROHIBITION ON WEIGHT when signed as MAXIMUM PERMITTED WEIGHT referring to the TRAINWEIGHT, irrespective of NIT PICKING it must surely allude to the WEIGHT ACROSS ALL AXLES were anything is not a fixed unit or Ridged,i.e.:- Car & Caravan or A Fifth Wheel Outfit or an Articulated Lorry as opposed to the Fixed Unit or Ridged OLD EIGHT & SIX LEGERS.
Could it be that as you have pointed out to me on a previous occasion that as you live in Europe and Caravans are treated like cars with Registration & Insurance in their own right that this is your Two Separate Vehicle claim as opposed to the UK seeing them as one.
I understand that it is an offence to leave a caravan/trailer/horse-box detached from the tow-vehicle on a public road in the UK without it being identified with cones or other means of warning and secured. When hitched they are ONE UNIT and when the unit is unhitched there are then two separate items with the same registration mark.
Could it be that as you have pointed out to me on a previous occasion that as you live in Europe and Caravans are treated like cars with Registration & Insurance in their own right that this is your Two Separate Vehicle claim as opposed to the UK seeing them as one.
I understand that it is an offence to leave a caravan/trailer/horse-box detached from the tow-vehicle on a public road in the UK without it being identified with cones or other means of warning and secured. When hitched they are ONE UNIT and when the unit is unhitched there are then two separate items with the same registration mark.
The whole thread started as a question regarding a 3.5 tonne limit in France and, unless further restrictions are shown on the sign (such as whether it applies to certain classes of vehicle only) it applies to each vehicle. As you mention, the caravan in France (and practically everywhere else other than in the UK) has its own tax and insurance and is therefore treated entirely separately.
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