4x4 thread

[Icemaker]

just thought this should be here rather than in general.

General

Express your views and let off steam about general caravanning issues

Moderator2 4X4 Thread

17 Aug 2007 11:54 PM

The 4X4 thread started by Frank has been deleted.

It has , for a very long time, been the accepted custom to post ALL 4X4 threads in the Towcar section, as, believe it or not, that is what that section is for.

It has also been said on numerous occasions that any 4X4 threads started anywhere else will be deleted,,,so that is what has happened.

Mod 2

Lutz

18 Aug 2007 00:01 AM Thanks Mod. We all know how that thread would have developed anyway.

brian (st albans)

18 Aug 2007 00:09 AM Same as Lutz , good call ;O)

Frank

18 Aug 2007 08:39 AM That is wrong.

A forum is for debate why could you not have just moved it to Towcars. The post was a genuine attempt to find out what sort of weight people are towing around with their 4x4 that's why I put the weight of our van into the thread. Because some people try to hi jack a thread is not a sufficent reason for CENSORSHIP which is what you have just done.

A thread the other day was counting 4x4 towing caravans it didn't say what vans, TAs SAs etc.

Frank

Lutz

18 Aug 2007 09:02 AM From the way the topic was written it was difficult to see it as a genuine question but more as a haughty statement that "I've got a big 4x4 that tows a big caravan. Bet your car can't do the same". That may not have been the intention, but I'm afraid that's how I read it and I am sure others did, too. It was therefore obvious from the outset that the thread would become very controversial.

A good many people tow even bigger caravans behind estate cars and are presumably quite happy with their choice.

Frank

18 Aug 2007 09:34 AM Lutz,

It was a genuine question, I do pull with a 4x4 and I care what other people pull with as well. It was a follow on to other recent threads, Bl***y caravaner etc. When overloading etc was seen as a safety issue. I am genuinely intersted in who pulls a 1800/1900 kg with what ???

Frank

Frank

18 Aug 2007 09:49 AM Me again Lutz,

One final point I have never seen a Super Storm or any of the big Elddis/Swift vans pulled with anything other than a 4x4. I would be really interested in peoples opinions on the alternatives. For opinion please read fact, have they actually done or do it.

Frank

Lutz

18 Aug 2007 09:52 AM Your observation may be true for the UK but on the Continent where 4x4's are less popular, many caravans, even in the 2000kg range, are pulled by estate cars or larger saloons.

Frank

18 Aug 2007 10:12 AM Hi Lutz,

Would your continental observation, be in both Winter and Summer ?? That is not meant to sound challenging.

Val & Frank

Lutz

18 Aug 2007 10:25 AM Yes, of course in winter, too. Few people can afford the luxury of having two towcars, one for the summer and one for the winter. That all major roads and those leading to winter sports areas are cleared of snow and ice is something one takes for granted.

Read these comments

Besides, the advantage of a 4x4 in winter.... posted 18 Aug 2007 10:39 AM by Lutz

giovanni

18 Aug 2007 02:17 PM

Its now two weeks since i returned from my

holidays,so still recall fresh in my mind

the sight of a bmw 5 series touring[no idea

as to which engine no badges but twin exhausts]

zooming along the A22 towing a huge van towards

the brenner pass. we were in the galaxy no van

doing about 60 mph, this thing came by at

70 ish on a uphill climb that goes for about

a mile plus. turned to the wife and said we

would be down to 40 mph if we were towing.

giovanni

18 Aug 2007 02:33 PM SORRY PRESSED THE WRONG BUTTON.

The unit looked and behaved as good as i have seen.

Now we have a bustner 500ts max weight 1500kg,this thing

at a glance was bigger.

Next in luxemborg we pulled over to fill up,saw an identical

van to ours.

It was being towed by a mondeo est, dutch plates sp no

worry there about 85% limits, infact wished i had bought a mondeo

rather than the bus we now use.

I really cannot understand this stupid argument based on having

a car that is so much heavier than the van you tow, when there

are so many other safety issues to safe towing!

There are so many disadvantages to being a heavy unit too.

(car and van)

Icemaker

18 Aug 2007 03:57 PM Frank the coachman laser we had was heavier than either the storm or any swift and we towed it with our galaxy then the alhambra.

we did initially have a discovery since like a lot of people we where led to believe that any thing above 1500 kgs needed a 4x4 to tow it, how wrong they are. the disco and the shogun that i borrowed where not a patch on the alhambra or the galaxy when towing any of my vans, my laser had been plated with a higher mtplm due to the a/c unit and the mover and we regularely towed the van at over 1800 kgs.

I don't know where you have been looking but we see loads of vans now being towed with mpv's rather than 4x4's as they are so much cheaper to run and dare i say (even though i don't agree with it) much more sociably acceptable.

me used to have a disco now an alhambra

my sister used to have a freelander now a citroen c8

my dad still got the shogun but when he changes he says he is having a galaxy

my sister in law just got there first van, waiting for the new kia carens to arrive next week.

4 members of my family all with big vans but not one 4x4.

 

[Lutz]

Giovanni, I'm surprised that you should find it noteworthy that you saw a Mondeo estate car in Luxemburg towing a 1500kg caravan. After all, the 85% weight ratio recommendation only applies in the UK so a 1500kg caravan behind a Mondeo is pretty normal. In fact, a 130hp 2.0TDCi has a maximum permissible towload of 2000kg and you can bet your bottom dollar that there's more than one person on the Continent towing on that legal limit.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

not totally surprised lutz, but when magazines and

forums repeatedly make a big thing about this 85% rule,

It sort of distracts you, or makes you doubt your own

ability,or makes you buy a vehicle that really you

did not need or like that much.

As it did to me....

 

[Moderator2_5083849]

The rest of the 4X4 thread from GeneralFrank Replay to topic

18 Aug 2007 07:45 PM Hi Icemaker

" don't know where you have been looking but we see loads of vans now being towed with mpv's rather than 4x4's as they are so much cheaper to run"

Just looked up Kia Sedona 2.9

Towing max 2000kg Kerb Weight 2168 kg Avg MPG 36.2 Sedona

Toyota max 2800kg Kerb Weight 1980 kg Avg MPG 30.7 LC 4

Retained value after 3 years Sedona 34% Toyota 49 %

I don't think reliability has an index, but I would think the Toyota would win hands down. So yes an MPV is upto the job, but at 5.5 mpg it wouldn't make me change.

The variables involved in trying to work out what's best is very difficult, and very very subjective.

Val & Frank

Comment

Lutz Replay to topic

18 Aug 2007 08:04 PM As you say, the choice between 4x4 and non-4x4 is very subjective. Although an estate car may not meet your own personal requirements, this is a decision that you took by your own choice and I'm not criticising it. However, a 4x4 is not essential, even for the size of caravan that you have. An estate car or even a saloon of suitable towload capacity can be perfectly adequate for someone else, especially if they are only going to tow once or twice a year, so why not leave it at that?

Comment

Frank Replay to topic

18 Aug 2007 08:52 PM Lutz,

"especially if they are only going to tow once or twice a year, so why not leave it at that"

Lutz you seem to think this is a personal thing ?? by the tone "so why not leave it at that" By the way I tow Winter and Summer

I am trying to find out actual information from people who tow say with MPVs, vans over 1800kg. I did notice the Sedona has a max tow under the cars weight.

Frank & Val

Comment

lolly Replay to topic

18 Aug 2007 08:58 PM Here we go again...

We have a 4x4 (don't know how much longer for though as she is on her last wheels) and our van is a Senator Arizona.

Quite frankly this 4x4 thing is only going to get out of hand and boring again, I get so fed up with the arguments that always ensue.

Can't we drop it once and for all?

Lolly x

Comment

 

[Lutz]

I agree, Lolly. It's all a matter of personal taste. Nobody can convince me that a Merc 320CDI and especially a 320CDI 4MATIC, would not be man enough for the job of towing a 1875kg caravan, even in winter, but if one just doesn't like estate cars or has a bias towards 4x4's, that's fair, too. It just wouldn't be a rational choice but a subjective one. I've got nothing against 4x4's, I've had one myself, but not because it was essential. It was a pity that the whole thing started as questioning the capability of alternatives.

 

[Val & Frank]

The rest of the 4X4 thread from GeneralFrank Replay to topic

18 Aug 2007 07:45 PM Hi Icemaker

" don't know where you have been looking but we see loads of vans now being towed with mpv's rather than 4x4's as they are so much cheaper to run"

Just looked up Kia Sedona 2.9

Towing max 2000kg Kerb Weight 2168 kg Avg MPG 36.2 Sedona

Toyota max 2800kg Kerb Weight 1980 kg Avg MPG 30.7 LC 4

Retained value after 3 years Sedona 34% Toyota 49 %

I don't think reliability has an index, but I would think the Toyota would win hands down. So yes an MPV is upto the job, but at 5.5 mpg it wouldn't make me change.

The variables involved in trying to work out what's best is very difficult, and very very subjective.

Val & Frank

Comment

Lutz Replay to topic

18 Aug 2007 08:04 PM As you say, the choice between 4x4 and non-4x4 is very subjective. Although an estate car may not meet your own personal requirements, this is a decision that you took by your own choice and I'm not criticising it. However, a 4x4 is not essential, even for the size of caravan that you have. An estate car or even a saloon of suitable towload capacity can be perfectly adequate for someone else, especially if they are only going to tow once or twice a year, so why not leave it at that?

Comment

Frank Replay to topic

18 Aug 2007 08:52 PM Lutz,

"especially if they are only going to tow once or twice a year, so why not leave it at that"

Lutz you seem to think this is a personal thing ?? by the tone "so why not leave it at that" By the way I tow Winter and Summer

I am trying to find out actual information from people who tow say with MPVs, vans over 1800kg. I did notice the Sedona has a max tow under the cars weight.

Frank & Val

Comment

lolly Replay to topic

18 Aug 2007 08:58 PM Here we go again...

We have a 4x4 (don't know how much longer for though as she is on her last wheels) and our van is a Senator Arizona.

Quite frankly this 4x4 thing is only going to get out of hand and boring again, I get so fed up with the arguments that always ensue.

Can't we drop it once and for all?

Lolly x

Comment

Hi Lolly,

If we drop it we will never get to the end of it, you have to ask why we have the 85% guidance@@ and if I read what Lutz say correctly. It is legal to tow upto the max tow limit, and a lot of people in the rest of Europe do it ????

Val & Frank

 

[lolly_5087162]

Nice to hear from you Lutz

We are hoping to change to a Vectra either 02 0r 03 reg, 2.0 + engine, seen some nice ones on autotrader but need to sort out the cashflow!

How's things your side of the water, it's been raining here all day today.

Lolly x

 

[Lutz]

Hello Lolly,

I've heard all about the bad weather in the UK this summer. You should have been over here. Not a perfect summer - we've also had a bit of rain now and again but not more than our fair share, so we can't grumble.

Due to one thing or the other I haven't been over in England since March and I'm expecting to be away on business in the Far East for a couple of months starting next month but I hope to make it across the Channel again next year - or perhaps meet up in France in July.

 

[Val & Frank]

OK then lets cut to the chase as my final post on this subject. Why would anyone feel they need to comment on a drive train, like I think a big merc would pull a big van, no doubt it will so what ??. Seen the service bills on big mercs ???

Chelsea tractors have been singled out for punishment, albeit a collective punishment on all large diesels/petrol engined cars. Why not pick on the big Hymmer Motorhomes currently touring in the UK ?? As far as Gas Guzzlers go these have to be the ultimate piece of nonsense, they acutally pull a car along behind, so they can park it in a town as the motorhome is to big!!!!. So it a matter of choice and no one elses business on who drives what.Just wanted to get some views on peoples biased opinions and I did.

Val & Frank

 

[Val & Frank]

Excuse me I really do think the weather should be under General or Chit Chat.

Frank

 

[Diane1]

We tow our Spectrum 540T/A with A Nissan Navara 2.5TDI Sport 4x4. We also have an evoIV 4x4, We would not pull our caravan, regardless of if it would or would'nt with the Evo. The Nav uses less fuel and has lower Exhaust emmissions and is a far safer car altogether. I think 138bhp against 410bhp speaks for its self as 44mpg against 14 mpg(and thats when i am behaving).

The Audi A4 1.9 4x4 for example puts out 198bhp, and some surgested that it was not a gas guzzler..... wrong it uses more fuel than my Nav and it has higher exhaust emmissions.

 

[Jazman]

We've had a few 4x4's and needed a 7 seater as my father has had to give up driving. A weakness for Landrovers pointed us in the direction of a Disco 3. Big mistake! OK'ish, but not exactly a dream buy and with seven up where does your holiday gear go?

OK if you're 7 foot 6 and have a Thule roof box the size of a Mini.

MPV has replaced the electronicaly challenged Disco. 3litre CDI 240 + bhp and 500nm po torque driven through a sweet tip auto. Seven seated with bags pf room for the laggage inside the car.

Solo and towing performance with 1850kgs of caravan is far superior to the Disco and earlier 4x4's. With top end around 132mph and 0-60mph just over 8 seconds why would we want 4 wheel drive for the odd slippery field and two days of snow per year?

Towing stability far exceeds our 4x4's and its a far more comfortable towing experience. Unless we decide to head for the Kalahari caravanning I'm off of 4 wheel drives.

 

[giovanni_5060838]

Frank. It seems to have sliped your attention that

YOU actually started this debate, ending your post with.

"which estate car can tow that"

All that has happened is people have told

you which estate cars can actually tow 1650 kgs

and now you are looking at lame excusses "service cost"!

to try to defend a topic you actually perposely provocate.

You knew what would happen as you are an intellegent bloke.

 

[Val & Frank]

Hi Giovanni,

The point I have been trying to make in all this, albeit not very well. Is that I think 4x4s seem to have cornered the market in the UK for towing big vans is on cost, and cost alone.

How people can think that the Goverment can tax a drive train is beyond me. It was sold to the people on hitting the polluters!!! Chelsea Tractors was even used on one occasion by a Goverment Minister. Even Lutz is taken in, saying you could use a big Merc or a BMW estate. Big Mercs and BMWs are out of most peoples finances, and one of the reasons is servicing cost.

That's why I put the comment.

Val & Frank

 

[cokey1970]

Dianne,

I don't know where you've sourced your information from but according to Nissan, the emissions for a 2.5 manual Navara are 263 g/km (283 g/km for automatic).

An Audi A4 3.0 TDi only emits 226 g/km which is less than your Nissan.

Martin.

 

[Lutz]

I would like to get back to the original question whether there is an estate car capable of towing a caravan of over 1800kg. The way this question was phrased suggests that Frank actually wanted a suitable alternative to a 4x4. This turns out not to be the case. Consequently, we must now be led to believe that the intention was purely provocative as there would never be an answer that would satisfy him.

If I don't want a 4x4 then service costs, for example, are not an issue because I've already made my mind up that it's not going to be a 4x4. The only thing that is going to interest me is whether there is an estate car that is technically capable of meeting my requirements. The various replies to this thread have attempted to give an appropriate answer. However, the whole issue was turned the other way round into criticisms of alternatives to a 4x4.

 

[Damian]

Lutz, your observations only go to confirm many peoples thoughts on where this topic was heading,as usual,,nowhere!!

 

[Diane1]

My info comes from the co2 and exhayst emmssions test done on a roling road in cardiff - same place that the Evo went to. AND by the way i go the figures for the Audi a4 from the my daughters boyfriend as they have this car as they couldnt afford the 4x4 they wanted.

 

[Diane1]

P.S. To answer the original question, i am told that the Audi A4 will pull our T/A Caravan.

 

[Val & Frank]

Lutz,

Would you agree with me that " Is that I think 4x4s seem to have cornered the market in the UK for towing big vans is on cost, and cost alone basis.????

This debate can only be provocative, if we are to achieve any sort of relevance with all the mis information that has gone before.

Val & Frank

 

[Lutz]

I take it you are now withdrawing your original question and replacing it the one above. Regarding the cost issue, I am not in a position to give you an answer because I am not familiar with fixed and running costs in the UK. It certainly does not apply on the Continent. I can only say that the reason why I sold my 4x4 was cost.

 

[Lutz]

No comment: (Straight out of the brochure)

http://www.dethleffs.de/2006/pictures/presse/pressebilder_aug_07/cara/beduin_emotion/original/bed_emo_sr_golf_a5.jpg

 

[Val & Frank]

Lutz,

So you can take a Dethleffs on a golf course so what does that prove ??? I bet it not par for the course ???

Rather irresponsible if you ask me never seen it in the UK maybe I did but, it was upside down on the motorway.

Val & Frank

 

[giovanni_5060838]

"Upside down on the m/way"

Actually frank it does not help you cause, because as you have

already stated the 4x4 seems to be the most popular choice for

towing, if that is true, and that caravan is no lightweight then

could one assume it was being towed by a 4x4 irisponsibully,

because the owner thought he was "safe" LOL..

 

[Lutz]

OK, just to show it's not a one-off. Here's another out of another manufacturer's brochure:

http://www.lmc-caravan.de/pic/dominant_aussen_72_530_d1354i1.jpg