50% Damp at 8 months old

[ProfJohnL]

That is a perfect description of the British mentality,just like the car industry and just like the heavy vehicle industry.The sad thing is its just not that easy to set up a manufacturing plant,take Eternity for example,and it gets harder and harder as production of parts moves to Europe.I can not believe British manufactures still turn out products like this.We,ve had a cheap foriegn van(adria) from new,now 7 years old and never laid a screw driver on it,never even changed a bulb.Why cant the British do the same?

They can!
But the company bosses choose not to change. I have seen first hand how changing the culture of a business can radically improve not only the current product, but the design of future products, and the improvement in profitability. Now thats a recipe that most business would like to have, but its rarely a a process that can occur over night. There is an initial cost top get the improved processes implemented, but the benefits can usually start to be seen in about 12 months, and the full benefits start to be realised 18 to 24 months down the line.

Client confidentiality prevents me from naming, but I have helped 3 major and several less well known companies implement ISO 9000 and ISO 14000 management processes, and all (except one) are now in far better financial condition that they would have been without effort. Better productivity per employee, Lower scrappage and waste from production processes, lower warranty costs, and tested by surveys higher customer satisfaction. This was essentially based on the implementation of the standards.

What is particularly annoying to me is that British and other standards should be seen as the minimum performance criteria, yet in so many cases they are viewed as being the level to aspire to. Companies that have been accredited with these standards are often driven to exceed the standard a process which is embodied in the continual improvement ethic of the standards.

Its no mean statement to say that "Customer is king", Losing a customer is easy, keeping a customer is harder, and gaining a new customer is ten times harder. Only where the customer has no alternative choice or where the alternatives are equally rated can a less than 100% focus on customers allow a company to continue producing less than defect free goods.

Looking at the UK caravan market, there is no single manufacturer with product that excels at the popular price points. If manufacturers want to protect their markets, they have either got to prevent foreign manufacturers getting a toe hold, (which is helped by the fact that we drive on the left and most of the world drives on the right so its more expensive to produce UK models and the NCC approvals schemes) or they have got to raise their game so much further.

Damians description of the caravan retail market is very true - but its not quite unique. But it is sad indictment of the poor standards at play in the UK industry. I am certain that dealers do not want to be handling faulty products yet alone having to put right the lazy mistakes of the manufacture at less than the going rate. Sadly dealers are forced into this crazy situation by the terms and conditions they sign up to before they can become a dealer for that marque. Again its an industry wide problem, and if one manufacturer were to break ranks and actually offer fully supported fair dealership agreements they would be very popular with the dealers.

This structure is the result of the cottage industry beginnings, which evolved without without a proper plan, and as the manufactures got bigger they started to use their size to dictate T&C, rather than negotiate them fairly.

Purely a rhetorical question: Did Eternity die or was it murdered?

 

[Raywood]

Prof. I have to agree with you. No matter how good your quality control is you are always going to get the odd problem but the caravan industries record is at best abysmal due to some very shortsighted thinking. It seems the churn them out and sort out the problems afterwards rules where I am sure that a proper quality control process would actually be cheaper than the mass of after sales work they now pay for.
The only industry I can think of that compares seems to be house builders. My daughter bought a new house at the beginning of the year and before they moved in the builder had to spend two full days correcting items that were blatantly obviously wrong and they have been back numerous times since. The one difference seems to be at least the builders did the work promptly but again it would have been far cheaper to get it right before the sale.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ray
I don't condone the building trades approach but unlike wholly manufactured caravans where they start with pristine components each time, specially cut and shaped to join together, a builder has to use basic blocks and work out how to join them together.How much cement to use, and how thick the mortar joints should be etc. so there is greater chance that two adjacent houses on the same site will at the centimeter scale be different. A centimeter out on a caravan would be horrendous! hmy: .

 

[seth1]

Totally agree John L.We refere to quality control.Why do we need quality control?Are workers now at a point of little standards or morerals?Hmmm.
Refering to Red Robbo,i never hide my dislike of BL or more over the management and at one time in my life i thought Red Robbo had a large part to play in all the strike actions which to a point he did.But after doing extensive research on BL during their tough times it appears,which really i always summised, that as normal the management were to blame
Staying on the subject,years ago i had the pleasure of a few visits to a German truck manufacturing plant.Likewise i also had the pleasure of litterally hundreds of visits to its sister plant in the UK.The difference was outstanding from the German workforce,for a start you didnt catch the Germans asleep,or "hiding" during work time.But the main factor was the management,the UK management and MD left alot to be desired.As proved by the European court.
As for Eternity,very sad story.The owner,a genuine guy stumped up the cash from his healthy steel business.Caravan sales were doing very well.But build issues appeared,warranty items.Stuff such as blistered side panels,leaking roofs,problems with the push out sides.Deposites were taken and then returned.Then came the problem of buying materials whilst all this was going on.The owner then sadly sold his steel business to keep the caravan business afloat.Sadly it crumbled around him.I take my hat of to him, especially for the bravery.I also feel for the customer who were left upset by what happened.This is just what ive read.

 

[Raywood]

Hello Ray
I don't condone the building trades approach but unlike wholly manufactured caravans where they start with pristine components each time, specially cut and shaped to join together, a builder has to use basic blocks and work out how to join them together.How much cement to use, and how thick the mortar joints should be etc. so there is greater chance that two adjacent houses on the same site will at the centimeter scale be different. A centimeter out on a caravan would be horrendous! hmy: .

Hi Prof. It was not the building that was the problem but the fittings. As an example when they switched on the built in dishwasher it flooded the floor. The connection to the waste had the two pipes pushed together and the locking nut was not even there. That was just one of a catalogue of stupid errors.

 

[intransient1]

I have spoken to the dealership today and Elddis are going to inspect the van on 04/02/15 as this apparently the first van since they introduced solid to have a damp problem.
pinch of salt comes to mind.
They will then decide what to do, knowing my luck it will be repaired, although the dealership agrees that this has had to be letting water in for some time to get into the wall and floor.
Watch this space.

 

[xtrailman]

I have spoken to the dealership today and Elddis are going to inspect the van on 04/02/15 as this apparently the first van since they introduced solid to have a damp problem.
pinch of salt comes to mind.
They will then decide what to do, knowing my luck it will be repaired, although the dealership agrees that this has had to be letting water in for some time to get into the wall and floor.
Watch this space.

Perhaps your dealer has only sold one?

Here's another that's even damper.

http://www.caravantalk.co.uk/community/topic/101287-98-damp/

 

[intransient1]

Hi Xtrailman,
that was an interesting link, which led to another link was an eye opener.
The caravan industry really does need to change.
When a person sets up a website to show the faults it really has got serious, but it shows that the manufactures don't
give a hoot for the purchaser.
Maybe it's time we all did it.

 

[intransient1]

I have looked at the damp issue again and irrespective of what elddis have to say on the matter I will be asking the dealership for a refund or replacement under Soga on the ground of not of satisfactory quality.
I know that this will not be easy but the damp even if repaired correctly has devalued the future sale value when we upgrade.
Furthermore by taking this stance I hope it will send a clear message to the manufactures that this poor quality will not be accepted.

 

[xtrailman]

I really don't blame you.
Elddis have never made it clear on how they would replace a panel for example, when it is effectively glued together.

 

[oldagetraveller1]

What depressing reading this topic makes! And how worrying it is for people like me who are currently looking to change their vans.
I have had Burstner or Hymer for the last 20 years and have not had a single problem. My vans have been used in all weathers, including searing heat in Spain and -15C in the Alps. Boring perhaps, but very reassuring.
I would like to buy British, but no-one seems to be able to recommend a really sound UK make.
I feel so sorry for those who sink their hard earned cash into a van load of trouble.

 

[xtrailman]

If I was you I would just stick to what you have had before, "if it an't broke don't mend it".

Thing with me is I'm not attracted to most caravans especially foreign makes, Bailey have that something I like. Having said that a visit yesterday to look at last years coachmen caravans impressed, but the 2015 models didn't.

Its the same with most makes some years the caravan just looks right, others no, I don't like present Unicorn 3, still prefer our U1, it was the same with our 2004 Senator it wasn't until the Unicorn came out that we saw any need to change.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Intransient.

May I suggest you demand Elddis give a full written report on the cause of water ingress plus a detailed technical specification of the repairs. I say this whilst appreciating a full cash refund is your primary desire.
Good luck on the 4th February.

 

[intransient1]

Hi Dustydog,
That's a good idea especially as it appears the norm in the industry is to dry out the floor and as this may lead to fungus growth that can affect me as I suffer with allergic athsma.
Also this model has a full fiberglass underfloor covering to further stop water getting in.
I do think that the damp was already in there before I took delivery as after the dry summer we
had to get that damp in had to take more than 3 months.

 

[RayS]

Hi Intransient, very sorry to hear of your troubles and wish you better luck than I have had with the same maker.

I think you will find under SOGA that you may have to consider a repair, or the dealer say he cannot do it (or have it done) before you can get to the full refund stage. I hope you have nitified the dealer within 6 months of the purchase date of the problem and that you are requuring action not under warranty but SOGA and associated legislation. If not you may have some problem as defects notified within 6 months are deemed to have existed at time of delivery unless the dealer can prove otherwise.

My Avante has been back to dealer once and factory for 6 weeks with creaking floor and a variety of construction problems - internal, not the shell. I did as has been suggested to you and asked for a full technical report. When the van came back from the factory the 'technical report' concerned whether the floor was sagging (which it wasn't) rather than whether it was creaking (which it still was) There was a letter from a customer service assistant rather than the managerial or director level I had requested which assured me all repairs had been carried out to the highest standard. I also found the components of the tollet room door handle laying loose in the wash basin and several of the marked faults untouched.

It also seems the carpets are not allowed to get wet. We gave ours a gentle shampoo and they disintegrated. The claim was rejected on the grounds that we had got them wet, although there is no specific mention of this in the handbook (although there is for curtains and upholstery). The dealer did, I think, realise that I would have created some adverse publicity and agreed to replace them as a good will gesture !

Finally, and I sincerely hope you don't have to go down this path, don't rely on too much help from the legal profession. Despite following advice from CAB and talking with the Law Society I failed to find any solicitor, including those claiming to specialise in consumer affairs, to take an interest in potential action. The majority i approached did not even reply. Due to a sudden change in health I am not taking the matter any further, and so nothing I have written above will prejudice any legal proceedings.

 

[Dustydog]

Ray
I'm speechless..On that basis you will be fully justified in publicly stating Ellddis carpets disintegrate when washed hmy: Maybe they do cheap throw aways

 

[intransient1]

I have spoken to the dealer today requesting a full written report on how the water ingress occurred and a full detailed specifications of the repair work, I did this at 15.15 hrs let's see if it gets through to the workshop for Elddis's attention.

 

[intransient1]

Hi Rays,
I did not notify the dealership at six months as It only came to light after a heavy rain that flooded the front offside interior of the van.
I had the damp test done independently as soon as we got home then received the figures.
As this model of caravans has a complete exterior fiberglass cover on the floor to help stop ingress and it had only rained in on the one occasion it would not have shown such high readings if it had not been going on for some considerable time.
While Soga gives me rights as does having paid a deposit on credit card and part of the sale was put on finance.
The onus would be on elddis to show that it had happened over a short time but as it has progressed to the middle of the floor it would be hard to say that It had.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Intransient,

From your responses, I suspect you do not fully understand the working of SoGA. Principally SoGA only applies between a retail customer (you) and the seller. The manufacturer has no part of any SoGA action unless they are the seller. The Manufacturers warranty/guarantee, is independent of Soga and it can never usurp SoGA which embodies your statutory rights.

However the SoGA time table is quite rigid when it come the change in onus to prove or disprove a case. Up to 6 months from the point of purchase the retailer has to prove the fault did not exist, and after six months the onus is placed on the owner to prove it did exist. This is a very significant change and given circumstances such as yours with a caravan it proves to be very difficult to be able to discount other possible causes such as wear and tear or damage caused by towing.

The caravan now being more than 6 months old means I strongly suspect you will not be able to press for full refund under SoGA. Even if a refund is offered it will not be full, because it is deemed that you have had the use of the caravan and the retailer would legitimately be able to counter charge you for that use and deduct it from the new value of the caravan.

Having told you that, your contract is not with Elddis but with the retailer/finance house, Eldiss are not obliged in any respect under SoGA to prove anything to anyone. However at the same time if Eldiss do offer any sort of evaluation of the damage or the cost to repair, it would be as sub-contractor to your seller. You are not obliged to accept Eldiss' view on this

With matters like this the question often arises should I stick my neck out and try the SoGA route or rely on the manufacturers water ingress guarantees ( if you have one) As SoGA is far from plain sailing given the circumstances you describe, at least with manufacturers warranty you do have some certainty, and it may be the best you can reasonably expect to achieve.

 

[Raywood]

Looks like another reason why Eldiss come bottom of the existing makes available in the latest survey. That is three years on the run which must say something and despite the recent suggestion by them that they were becoming more customer orientated.
Carpets that fall apart if they get wet are just ridiculous, we have cleaned the carpets on all six of our caravans using various washing methods and even after ten years on one there was no sign of a problem. A carpet the disintegrates when damp is not fit for purpose.

 

[intransient1]

Hi ProfJohnL,
your advice as usual is I have to take medication dailytmost invaluable.
The van in still in its first year of the 10 year water ingress warranty, but as it has not made it through the first year the future does not look rosy.
I appreciate b that if I pursue a refund under Soga I may loose some monies which is expected.
The van has been sat at the dealership for a month awaiting a visit from Elddis which should have happened today, and I will be chasing them tomorrow for a preliminary proposal to remedy the problem.
I suspect that the industry standard repair will be offered without replacing the floor as we all know this is done to avoid having to dismantle the van completely, but with a full length fibreglass shield below the floor this will make drying it out a long job.
All I want is a product that performs as it should and let's be fair after 50 years of manufacturing caravans that is not a tall order.

 

[intransient1]

The first line should read I find your advice invaluable as usual, but it took something from another line and put it in and the result looks more like an insult and not the thank you that was intended.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The first line should read I find your advice invaluable as usual, but it took something from another line and put it in and the result looks more like an insult and not the thank you that was intended.

No insult taken, But just keep taking the medication and with any luck I might disappear

I'm not clear about what you tell us is happening with your caravan, You tell us its at the dealer awaiting inspection by Elddis. yet you are also telling us you want to pursue a refund. So this begs the question Who has asked Elddis to come and inspect?

 

[intransient1]

The dealership have involved elddis, past experience has shown me the manufactures don't deal with customers, if they did they might use the fed back to build better products.
I can only assume the dealership is not comfortable taking on this repair as it involves both the wall and floor, and having seen the way caravans come back from elddis it's not good.
I haven't had a chance to contact them today to find out what has happened so will do that tomorrow morning.
My only problem now is if I go for a refund what do I do to get a decent caravan?

 

[ProfJohnL]

The dealership have involved elddis, past experience has shown me the manufactures don't deal with customers, if they did they might use the fed back to build better products.
I can only assume the dealership is not comfortable taking on this repair as it involves both the wall and floor, and having seen the way caravans come back from elddis it's not good.
I haven't had a chance to contact them today to find out what has happened so will do that tomorrow morning.
My only problem now is if I go for a refund what do I do to get a decent caravan?

If you are successful in getting a refund, ( but in reality I suspect you will find that very difficult) you will have the cash and will be able to choose whatever caravan you want within your available budget. You are not tied to using the same dealer or manufacture.

No one it seems (and not even the continental offerings) can guarantee a fault free caravan, so its is always something of a lottery. Perhaps consider a relatively new but second hand model that enough history of being dry?