50% Damp at 8 months old

[woodsieboy]

Hello Intransient
I have been following this thread and waiting to see how it developed and as i suspected the dealer has involved the manufacturer,and as others have said your contract is with the supplying dealer and not the manufacturer,so it is really not your problem to get involved with the manufacturer,and a month waiting to be inspected does not seem reasonable to me.We found that by involving the Finance company they were very aware of their obligations and by pressing them,they put pressure on the supplying dealer. We eventually had our van fixed to our satisfaction and the Finance Company paid us a sum in compensation for lack of use, phone calls and inconvenience,

 

[RayS]

The general advice this thread seems to offer is that it may be worth using a finance company when you buy a new caravan, whether or not you need the loan. Their involvement seems to be easier to obtain and more effective than other consumer protection agencies. Stange world we live in.

 

[woodsieboy]

Indeed it does Ray,we try to finance about a quarter to a third of the value to ensure the 'protection' of the finance company,once you have paid more than half the value of the goods they are effectively yours anyway,should the goods be faulty at time of purchase,or become faulty during the lifetime of the agreement the finance company has a liability to you for the goods. In essence the finance company buys the goods from the dealer on your behalf an as such they have an interest in the quality of the goods.We have found that the company most dealers use, with a black horse logo, is very good at dealing with complaints, they tend to appoint a complaints handler who deals with everything between you and the dealer, the pressure comes because the complaints handler has a set time to respond to you, and is under pressure internally to resolve the complaint.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Indeed it does Ray,we try to finance about a quarter to a third of the value to ensure the 'protection' of the finance company,once you have paid more than half the value of the goods they are effectively yours anyway,..................

Hello Woodsieboy,

Check your finance package terms and conditions, and I think you will find that most finance houses will use wording to the effect that the goods in the agreement remain the property of the finance house until full and final payment has been made.

 

[woodsieboy]

Hi Prof
You are right in that most agreements will say something like'the goods will not become your property until you have made all the payments you must not sell them before then' My point was that an agreement will also include a clause relating to repossession such as ' if you have paid at least a third of the total amount payable under the agreement we may not take back the goods against your wishes unless we obtain a court order.In the real world many caravans are sold or traded before they are paid for and it is unlikely that the finance company would go for repossession until all other avenues had been exhausted.if we are talking about a caravan with faults that the buyer had stopped making payments towards for the reason that it was faulty.If the buyer only finances a third of the value then that clause will be effective from day 1 of the agreement as two thirds would already have been paid.

 

[intransient1]

Hi ProfJohnL,
I spoke to the dealership today and was advised that elddis had checked the van and decided that the problem is with the water inlet where it is fitted to the van.
They have authorised repair work to this area only and the damp to be dried out without removing any wallboard or insulation.
As they have admitted that there is a problem with the water inlet where it is fitted into the sidewall it was incorrectly fitted during assembly and therefore existed when I received the van at handover.
They will not give me a written report or specifications on how they will effect repairs.
I do not feel that their repair proposal as outlined by the dealers is adequate.
I value your opinion on this.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Intransient,

I'm sorry your expectations have not been met. Clearly what you have been offered is not what you wanted to hear, and you will still believe you have lost value as a result of a what appears to be manufacturing defect.

I need to think about the situation before I offer any further opinions and right now its quite late at night ( 1:25 AM) so I shall try to piece together some thoughts tomorrow (Saturday).

 

[woodsieboy]

Hello Intransient
When we had a situation where we were not happy with the dealers proposal,the finance company arranged an independent inspection at their cost,. A gentleman came to our house and looked at the van took quite a few photographs ans supplied a written report of his findings with the photographs to the finance company,they also supplied us with a copy of the report.,as you say you are not happy with the dealers suggestions in your case, perhaps you should seek a second opinion?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Good morning Intransient,

When cases like yours get to this sort of stage, I feel its improper to discuss fine details in open public debate.

In the past I have corresponded indirectly with the forum member using Parksy as a go between. This also helps to ensure that a third relatively impartial person observes what is going on, and it preserves our anonymity a feature, for reasons that Parksy is fully aware, I wish to preserve.

If you are amenable to this perhaps you would indicate by contacting Parksy.

 

[intransient1]

Hi ProfJohnL,
That would be fine with me, I will contact Parks.
Thank you.

 

[Parksy]

Glad to be able to help.
If you can both forward your your mutual correspondence to me via my own email address I'll see the email alerts and forward your emails with the usual privacy arrangements Prof.

 

[intransient1]

Hi ProfJohnL,
Just to let you know I will have to pick this up in 2 weeks as I have just been told that we are going to Egypt as a surprise.
Catch up when I get back.
Thanks

 

[RayS]

If the water inlet was leaking this should have been noticed during the PDI by the dealer, who should have tested all the systems before handover.

My opinion here is what I thnk should have happened. Others may feel that the dealer should not have had to go to this level of testing. I would not really quarrel with this view except you have probably paid the dealer more than £500 for the PDI. If not for this, then for what ?

I would want to know exactly where the leak occurred. The most likely point is on the back of the Whale pump socket, which should be fully visible as you need to see it to set up the pressure switch module. Another question for the dealer.

This whole thing mirrors my own unhappy experience so closely as to be beyond coincidence.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Ray,

It is certainly my opinion that if the manufacturer actually did their job correctly in the first instance, the dealer should not have to check ALL the systems are functional under stress. Particularly contained systems such as gas water and electrics, these are so simple to stress test there should be no excuse for them to fail at PDI or with the customer.

As you may have gathered I am in closed correspondence with Intransient on his particular circumstance, so my comment now is not directed to his case but as a general comment. It is of course perfectly possible that a system is installed in some defective way, such that the actual defect may only become apparent some time after assembly. It could conceivably perfectly functional and not leak at PDI, but it is only after time and motion through towing that the component weakens and starts to leak some time later.

If it is your contention that dealers should not just check the function at PDI but in some way also rapid age or stress test, where do you stop? What other items should you literally 'shake down'? Do you start dismantling things to see that they've been put together properly? - How long is a piece of string?

The fact is that these systems can be installed correctly, and they should be installed correctly BY THE MANUFACTURER. I know I am often critical of dealers and the way some will shirk their responsibilities, but the vast majority of caravan customer complaints can be readily traced back to poor design or assembly standards by the caravan manufacture.

Is a PDI necessary? There may well be transit dirt and covers to be removed, and customer special orders added to the basic caravan, but does that justify the high cost they itemise on their bills of sale? Well that is open to some debate.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

If the water inlet was leaking this should have been noticed during the PDI by the dealer, who should have tested all the systems before handover.

My opinion here is what I thnk should have happened. Others may feel that the dealer should not have had to go to this level of testing. I would not really quarrel with this view except you have probably paid the dealer more than £500 for the PDI. If not for this, then for what ?

I would want to know exactly where the leak occurred. The most likely point is on the back of the Whale pump socket, which should be fully visible as you need to see it to set up the pressure switch module. Another question for the dealer.

This whole thing mirrors my own unhappy experience so closely as to be beyond coincidence.

hi Ray, when we got our new bailey, as part of the deal. the supplying dealer included the first 3 years service.
and of course being me did my own service after that. unfortunatly during the spring water cleansing I over tightened the water filter. cracking the housing. so had to fit a new one. [on site with no water] as i had not realised it was cracked until filling the system. I put a new one on with the correct sealer supplied by a local dealer. and made sure there was a good bead all the way round, before fitting. job looked perfect a nice squeeze all way round .
good job perfect, totally waterproof for 2 years, except one night there was the most horrendous storm with driving rain down that side of the van. and yes water got in and soaked the floor just like the OP. a visual inspection showed nothing still looked perfect with no cracks or issues. but as there was nowhere else that could leak, I removed it and renewed the seal. in doing this noticed one small piece of old sealer [different colour] stuck to the top. preventing the housing from sticking to the van side,
now this was my own fault and not associated with a new build quality. issue but the principal was the same ie a visual inspection like on a pdi would not have shown it up. only when certain circumstances prevailed did it leak.
the OP's van showed these symptoms at 8 mths old. but may well have not done so for several years.

 

[RayS]

Hello Prof, your last question is the key. Is the PDI necessary? Unfortunately yes, but it shoud not be. Why should another party (obviously far less well equipped in this respect than the manufacturer) have to carry out what we know as 'final inspection' checks ? Why is this cost to the user incurred in the first place ?
How would it be if aircraft were sold in this way.

So we are in total agreement, but probably have to accept that the world is unlikely to change in this respect.

 

[Dustydog]

I don't recall ever paying the Dealer for a PDI although you gave us the delivery from the factory free.
The PDI we were given and indeed the hand over at point of collection did test and demonstrate all water , electrics and gas items.
The water was connected by an aquaroll rather thana mains dircet supply.
Whatever transpires between the Prof and Instransient I'd still like to hear both Elddis and the Dealers technical explanation of the failure together with a detailed job description of the required remedial works.
Further I'd want a written guarantee no long term water damage has been caused to the floor or any other panel or furniture.Go do your thing Prof :evil: B)

 

[intransient1]

Hi ProfJohnL,
greeting from egypt we arrived to 23C .
Also got good Wi fi so we don't have to wait 2 weeks.
How do I bring parksy up to speed on the issue?

 

[ProfJohnL]

At least whilst your in Egypt you'll learn how to keep your cool

I have sent a quite long reply to Parksy. He will forward it to your registered Email address. Simply reply to Parksy's address on his email and he will forward it to me.

Tell him if you want to have all your personal details removed (name and email address etc) before he sends it on to me.

Regards PJL

 

[intransient1]

Hi ProfJohnL,
thanks for that.
It's hot and sunny the beach is calling, just got to OH out of bed.
Regards, I

 

[intransient1]

Well back off holiday 2 weeks of sunshine did me the world of good.
Collected the van from the dealers and took it for an independent damp test, yes you guessed it still has damp showing up to 50% in the floor.
Sent them the new report, they were not happy, we aren't either.

 

[kayak1]

I am with you on this one..Caravans should not leak. period! Cars don't leak, boats etc. don't leak.. but caravans have been around for a while now so you would of thought the manufacturers would have got this major problem sorted by now, or are they hoping to make money on repairs after warranty. I think If I was going to build my own van it would be water prevention that would be top of the list, in the priority of the design..

 

[colin-yorkshire]

I am with you on this one..Caravans should not leak. period! Cars don't leak, boats etc. don't leak.. but caravans have been around for a while now so you would of thought the manufacturers would have got this major problem sorted by now, or are they hoping to make money on repairs after warranty. I think If I was going to build my own van it would be water prevention that would be top of the list, in the priority of the design..

if only it was that easy :woohoo: but it isn't. if it was I think they would have come up with a solution by now what is it 70 odd years. of touring vans. true it should be important but almost impossible to irradicate because of what they are.
yes cars dont leak ""well soft tops do"" and neither do boats. but both of these have solid bodies, in the case of cars they also have a wheel on each corner. touring vans however have the wheels in the centre with a large overhang either end this makes the body flex under tow, indeed this has to happen or the outer skin would tear apart sometimes this happens anyway and the reason for cracking around the windows and doors, this flexing has to be taken into account and the joints are allowed to flex a little and this is usually where the water gets in. yes the design is improving but the caravan buying public should be aware that the wish list for their new van could well increase the risk of leakage because we all want the biggest one we can get and want the most equipment on board. at the lightest weight this makes them more prone to flexing as all this extra weight is situated around the outside wall.
park homes and statics by enlarge. do not have the same degree of problems simply because they are not towed. and so dont flex as much.
my heart goes out to anyone who spends 20grand on a new van only to find it damp but if you really want a bone dry van for a long long time, buy a small one with a solid body, minimum equipment, and dont tow it anywhere.
that is if you can find one, but I doubt any are made as no one would want them.

 

[Dustydog]

Well back off holiday 2 weeks of sunshine did me the world of good.
Collected the van from the dealers and took it for an independent damp test, yes you guessed it still has damp showing up to 50% in the floor.
Sent them the new report, they were not happy, we aren't either.

Not good. Sorry to hear still not fixed.
I realise you and the Prof are working on this. so just wish you all the best in getting a final resolution with the dealer.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I am with you on this one..Caravans should not leak. period! Cars don't leak, boats etc. don't leak.. but caravans have been around for a while now so you would of thought the manufacturers would have got this major problem sorted by now, or are they hoping to make money on repairs after warranty. I think If I was going to build my own van it would be water prevention that would be top of the list, in the priority of the design..

if only it was that easy :woohoo: but it isn't. if it was I think they would have come up with a solution by now what is it 70 odd years. of touring vans. true it should be important but almost impossible to irradicate because of what they are.
yes cars dont leak ""well soft tops do"" and neither do boats. but both of these have solid bodies, in the case of cars they also have a wheel on each corner. touring vans however have the wheels in the centre with a large overhang either end this makes the body flex under tow, indeed this has to happen or the outer skin would tear apart sometimes this happens anyway and the reason for cracking around the windows and doors, this flexing has to be taken into account and the joints are allowed to flex a little and this is usually where the water gets in. yes the design is improving but the caravan buying public should be aware that the wish list for their new van could well increase the risk of leakage because we all want the biggest one we can get and want the most equipment on board. at the lightest weight this makes them more prone to flexing as all this extra weight is situated around the outside wall.
park homes and statics by enlarge. do not have the same degree of problems simply because they are not towed. and so dont flex as much.
my heart goes out to anyone who spends 20grand on a new van only to find it damp but if you really want a bone dry van for a long long time, buy a small one with a solid body, minimum equipment, and dont tow it anywhere.
that is if you can find one, but I doubt any are made as no one would want them.

Hello Colin,

Sorry to return to this thread, but I have to say a great post in general you make some excellent points, but I do have to disagree about the underlying theme that suggests we shouldn't be surprised if caravans leak!
The industry has had more than 70 years (actually closer to 100)to combat the problem, and its only in the last 5 or so they have started to roll out new construction techniques, with claims they should be more watertight. Data is difficult to establish, but I do get the impression that the new methods are beginning to show improved results - but we still get to hear about the worst cases.

I'm not dismissing them at all, the fact is that some caravans (and hopefully an increasing proportion) are proving to be watertight, so the technology can work. What always seems to let them down is the consistency of production. Why can one caravan be watertight, yet the next one of the production line leaks like a sieve? That's the issue, and in reality it always has been, as even with the previous construction methods some caravans were watertight so why not all?

We think we know one reason for it, and that is the production methods that seem to encourage operatives to produce quantity rather than quality. Until that imbalance is fully addressed, then as customers we will continue pay a premium for the privilege of buying potentially faulty goods.

It is quite correct to point to the size of the overhangs, and the content we expect caravans to have as being potential causes of stress related faults, but frankly caravan manufacturers should be more than aware of the these stresses and adapting engineering principles to accommodate them.

The size of overhangs is not disproportionate to those found in commercial vehicles, and the loads are certainly less, so there are solutions, and the manufacturers should be investing in bringing those solutions to their products.