The object of my reply was only to point out that one can be overloaded without exceeding the 85% weight recommendation (or whatever percentage you care to name) just as much as exceed the 85% weight ratio recommendation without being overloaded.
The object of my reply was only to point out that one can be overloaded without exceeding the 85% weight recommendation (or whatever percentage you care to name) just as much as exceed the 85% weight ratio recommendation without being overloaded.
There is no evidence-just a figure that errs on the safe side and is plucked out of the air from experience -my experience-just like the 85% of kerbweight rubbish. Trouble is people are led to believe this is law-and if you read the practical caravan guide at the back -this is how you are led to believe it is-no mention of the car towing limit or far too little imo.
Why don't caravanners just load up their caravans knowing what they can load legally it's not rocket science you are working with one axle, can this subject be barred I'm sick of reading about it more than likely I will be heavier than I should be when I throw two mountain bikes in the caravan, am I bothered no, If I get pulled with the DVSA that's just hard luck it's very easy to do just refer to this site about the confusing info about loading a caravan
You are not obliged to read or reply to the postings in this thread, just feel free to ignore it, others may have questions or points they want to raise.
While I agree that the 85% figure is not backed by any modern scientific research we have a problem of having to advise newcomers on ratios. No figure is right for everybody and personally I feel it is a bit low with modern cars and caravan chassis but you have to give some idea as to what is reasonable. Perhaps a broader guide, say 85to 90%, would be better but we have to come up with a figure if we are going to help those needing it.
Personally I would not be happy telling a newcomer to exceed 90% until they are used to towing a caravan.
Personally I would not be happy telling a newcomer to exceed 90% until they are used to towing a caravan.
Prof, this thread is a good starting point if you are pulled by DVLA and it turns out the caravan is over loaded, then they will be confused,
Don’t understand why DVLA should be confused if they weigh a caravan and it’s overloaded I have been escorted to a weighbridge by a police motorcycle officer. The VOSA (as were) were extremely thorough in weighing caravan and car and also checking for road worthiness too. Cannot believe that they would have been confused if either had been overloaded as both vehicles have plated maxima.
What did they checkyour nose weight with because I'm still confused with this procedure did they use a milenco nose weight gauge or bathroom scales,
I am not seeing that "we have a problem of having to advise newcomers on ratios".
For the novice to the hobby the onus IMO is on the caravan seller to do the cross checking.
Countless times I make the point determining towing stability predictions is not as crude as looking up a mass ratio, even if that data is actually accurately known to do so.
There are other fundamental vehicle characteristics that play a role weighting the ratio one should consider, one way or the other.
It is not too demanding given the finite number of vehicles that potential buyers would likely own, for say the NCC to credit them with a suggested maximum caravan weight, so van's over this ought not to be considered.
This assessment to credit a caravan towing weight can largely be done as a paper exercise , just a few moments looking at the vehicle, or even its brochure immediately gives the leaders to it being good or poor, then armed with a trustworthy kerb weight you can determine the listed caravan recommended upper towing value for that vehicle.
Should any vehicle builder question that judgement, they fund a basic "elk" like test towing the weight caravan they would like credited to their vehicle.
Looking back 40 years ago no one on line, didn’t exist, advised me . I remember reading En Route and following the Club’s s advice. Most was about sensible loading and not exceeding the towing vehicles GVW..
Has anything changed
Has anything changed
Your confusing me!
Its strange that in your last post, you implied your fed up with thread, yet you have responded again.
But following on from your most recent post, Who will be confused? And confused about what?
Confucius says “ He who learns but does not think, is lost! He who thinks but does not learn is in great danger”.
Can‘t cope with all this confusion
Can‘t cope with all this confusion
Hello JTQ
As I think you probably know, I'm not a fan of the present advice, and it seems we agree there should be a better way to provide meaningful advice about car and caravan matching.
I'm also certain it should make use of some of the technical information that is now automatically published about both cars and caravans rather than reliance on highly variable and unreliable information like kerbweight.
However, I don't believe the NCC would or could undertake to rate vehicles in the way you suggest, there are far too many makes and models, and to be effective it would also have to be retrospective.
It might make more sense for the NCC to look at caravans as that is their prime reason for existence and perhaps suggest the minimum ULW of car that should be used, but that is in essence what the present advice consists of, and we believe that is too simplistic.
I believe it should be a process that the prospective caravanner can use. To some extent some of the matching sites already do this, but most of them continue to use the industry guidance as guillotine if a match exceeds it.
As I think you probably know, I'm not a fan of the present advice, and it seems we agree there should be a better way to provide meaningful advice about car and caravan matching.
I'm also certain it should make use of some of the technical information that is now automatically published about both cars and caravans rather than reliance on highly variable and unreliable information like kerbweight.
However, I don't believe the NCC would or could undertake to rate vehicles in the way you suggest, there are far too many makes and models, and to be effective it would also have to be retrospective.
It might make more sense for the NCC to look at caravans as that is their prime reason for existence and perhaps suggest the minimum ULW of car that should be used, but that is in essence what the present advice consists of, and we believe that is too simplistic.
I believe it should be a process that the prospective caravanner can use. To some extent some of the matching sites already do this, but most of them continue to use the industry guidance as guillotine if a match exceeds it.
I don't share the view that the range of vehicles prospective novice caravanners would probably own or want to consider is that extensive. First a whole number would be totally unsuitable by virtue of not even meeting a 100% mass match, to tow mainstream UK van's.
Then it is down to considering twenty to thirty popular models IMO at the most. I don't think there is a need for going back to historic models much further than say 7 or 8 years. Those buying into the NCC's products, new or nearly new will IMO not typically be the ultra budget motorist to be even considering buying.
There is no real issue with variations of "trim" within a model, power would not affect my target issue, stability, hence safety, nor would the quality or quantity of the opulence. Stability drivers like overhang, acceptable noseweight, wheelbase, track, Cof G vertical & longitudinally, rear suspension lateral stiffness & mass, would not vary widely across a makers particular model.
Integrating at least a consideration of these in cross comparing vehicle to vehicle, together with the present mass ratio to a towed caravan, would make for a more meaningful selector.
The NCC is the one with the real vested interest. We see this already in their offering quite stupidly low payloads and leaving out the battery and mover from the MIRO, all to yield the lowest possible [or is that better described as impossible] MTPLM. Based I suggest solely on seeking a greater market.
Therefore, identifying those cars offering better towing characteristics than everything being boxed into the 85% ratio, surely would be a welcomed goal for them.
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Don't think there is any more confusion than we had already-people need to know that 85% of kerbweight is not a rule and has no legal standing. That the cars rated towing limit plus driving licence regs limit what you can actually tow but that this may or may not be safe. Conservative and sound advice therefore would perhaps be to go for 85% kerbweight if you can but not to think you are breaking any laws should this not be feasible for any reason and initially therefore stay legal and load and drive with great caution until you get a feel of how the outfit handles; think most people do this. And if you aren't happy adjust accordingly-load, caravan or car change till you are!
I just marvel at how I survived as a Tugger. My first attempt to enter the hobby was to try and buy a caravan from a recently bereaved widow. It was a lovely looking caravan a Cosalt, but she explained that my Marina estate might not be heavy enough to tow it. So after a bit more research without the benefit of internet I came across a Haynes Caravan Manual and some literature from the CC. I worked on it from there. But one funny was when I bought a caravan from a dealer he said nothing about what tow car I had. Although when he looked at my car after signing the contract he did ask whether you could get a towbar fitted to a Skoda Estelle. We had used the run about to view potential caravans.
I really can’t recall when I first became aware of the 85% guidance. But it was after we first started caravanning. But through my discussions with our widowed neighbour I became aware of the basics such as stay within the tow weight of the car, don’t exceed the vans weight, keep car heavy and van light, and drive carefully especially in winds or overtaking. After that it was just a steady learning curve supplemented by a CC course and an ever increasing knowledge base through publications and forums.
I am aware that as more and more advice and information become available I am finding it harder to make decisions ( my wife says) or perhaps it’s an age thing.
We had used the run about to view potential caravans.I really can’t recall when I first became aware of the 85% guidance. But it was after we first started caravanning. But through my discussions with our widowed neighbour I became aware of the basics such as stay within the tow weight of the car, don’t exceed the vans weight, keep car heavy and van light, and drive carefully especially in winds or overtaking. After that it was just a steady learning curve supplemented by a CC course and an ever increasing knowledge base through publications and forums.
I am aware that as more and more advice and information become available I am finding it harder to make decisions ( my wife says) or perhaps it’s an age thing.
Has the test to gain the "+E" to the standard B driving license not got any theoretical element re towing weights and their relevance to caravans?
I realise that the sub 3500kgs GTW of the basic "B" entitlement allows some to slip through, but even that might tend towards limiting people going too far wrong. Then I expect some don't even know that, unless a caravan dealer raises the point.
I realise that the sub 3500kgs GTW of the basic "B" entitlement allows some to slip through, but even that might tend towards limiting people going too far wrong. Then I expect some don't even know that, unless a caravan dealer raises the point.
The problem here is that new comers need advice on weights, so they have to be given something to go on. I accept that 85% has no modern scientific basis and the advice needs looking at again. My feeling is that a figure of 85 to 90% is sensible and gives people a bit of leeway, which with ever lighter cars they are starting to need. If you do not go with the 85% advice, you need to give some guidance, and I would be interested to know how you would do this.
Hello Jezzer,
The 85% advice has become so confused, partly because people continually use words both verbally and in print that reinforce the misconceptions even when they are trying disconnect the linkage. The use of the r... word should in my view be avoided if at all possible in the same sentence or even paragraph to prevent the improper reinforcement.
I believe we should never use any other adjective that imbues it with authority and only quote it positively as "advice" or "guidance" This will help to break the linkages.
We have had a few people posting on the forum, and the distinct inference is they religiously aim to get an 85% ratio with a total disregard for other criteria, becasue that's what they've been told do. These are prime examples of how the industry advice has become over emphasised and taken out of context.
I think, and I hope, people do adapt both loading strategies and driving habits, but its those poor souls who want to do it right that have to dabble with vagaries of the present advice when they should have access to a more refined process that will ensure compliance with the law, and hopefully start them on the right road to happy and safer caravanning.
I totally agree in every way-just check out the 'how do I make sure my outfit is legal on the page just in front of the new caravan listings to see how wrong and confused the advice is. Well said Prof-you have my fullest support. I have posted in the past my dislike of the 85%thing, and have experienced worry about my outfit which handled brilliantly and seen our neighbour whittle and worry about it to the point that he weighed every item in his van and changed the caravan he really wanted to buy. It may be a good starting point but to use any other word than recommendation is 'legally' wrong! You have my full support and will never associate it with the r word again. Conscious misinformation springs to mind! People need to know the facts as they stand.
Parksy
Moderator
We on this forum are not the Grammar Police and anyone who attempts to correct the spelling or grammar of a fellow forum member would be in breach of forum etiquette.
I'm not quite sure what is meant by the phrase 'the r word' Prof.
The 85% figure is a recommendation from both clubs, most motoring organisations and indeed by Practical Caravan Magazine.
This recommendation is aimed at those who are new to caravan towing and it should be taken with other safety techniques which are recommended along with the 85% figure.
There is no evidence to suggest that the 85% car / caravan ratio gives any guarantee or assurance of safety and stability, but there is no evidence to suggest that the 85% figure is likely to endanger novice caravanners either.
As for the colloquial term 85% rule, any casual browser of this forum should be able to discern that the 85% recommendation has no legal basis.
If a novice caravanner does no prior research before choosing and loading their caravan there's nothing that we can do about it.
Might I respectfully suggest that anyone becoming hot under the collar about the recommendation being described as 'the 85% rule' should write to the editor of Practical Caravan Magazine?
Every month in the Caravan Basics section of the magazine aimed at potential and novice caravanners, theres a sectioned box with the heading ' What does the 85% rule mean?'
This section goes on to say that
'In line with the major caravanning clubs, Practical Caravan recommends using the 85% rule when calculating a suitable car and caravan match'
Berating members of this forum about what you think that they should or shouldn't write is eventually going to bring you into conflict with forum rules Prof.
We get that you dislike the term 85% rule.
We know why you dislike it.
Have a look at the Caravan Basics section of Practical Caravan Magazine and let them know, but remember to take your blood pressure tablets before you read the magazine! 🤬
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Whatever you think about the figure you have to give some guidance. JezzerB has got away with an outfit that should be inherantly unstable, but that does not mean others will. You have to advise newcomers to watch the weight and give them some sort of figure. Even after 35 years plus of towing I still look at weights first when looking at caravans and probably second to the engine on cars.
I do object to the 'got away with what should be unstable'. I chose the caravan to be under the legal towing weight of the car and chose to ignore the 85% kerbweight advice -a lot of beginners would do this and it's only those who do lots of research which many many people don't who would have worried about the outfit. We decided to try it and then buy a new car if needed. I took it steadily but actually the outfit handled far far better than the much lighter van we'd had (1150kg as opposed to 1450kg) before, and that had ATC. My point is you expect it to be unstable but where is the proof-my practical proof is that it is not unstable in anyway and as I keep repeating we did 30k miles towing with this outfit in a variety of coniditions. We didn't just get away with it. The Dacia Duster did get rave reviews for its towing ability I have to add! Until experience proves otherwise I will continue to think that 85% kerbweight is flawed. Likewise I don't go with the argument of how unusual our slab sided caravans are. Plenty of very very slab sided cattle trailers towed by plenty of half cab type vehicles and weird combos with what must be severely worse aerodynamics . Thing is people who don't do the research probably won;t read forums like this so there seem to be very few of us able to refute the argument that 100% +of kerbweight is unstable-it quite clearly wasn't in our case.
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