85% rule - advice please

[john_374312808]

I have outlined something below that I appreciate any comments on from the experienced caravanners out there .......................

Car kerbweight 1500kg

therefore 85% is 1275kg

caravan is MTPLM of 1400kg therefore too heavy

but what if............!

MTPLM is 1400kg

Payload is 200kg

MIRO is 1200kg

Of the payload essential habitation equipment is 50kg

So if you put the rest of the payload in the car (150kg)van and payload comes to 1250kg, just less than 85%.

Would the above be a safe way to proceed ?

Please help before I go out and buy a 4 x 4 !!!

Thanks

Regards, John

 

[Tim_5120839]

John,

My problem is more or less the same....see comments below your topic.It would seem 100% is o.k if you are experienced,my Van is going to be within 100 kg of the kerb weight of my Freelander.

I am going to go for it, see if I can keep the weight down in the Van and load the car up a bit.Kerb weight is also less your tow bar and you and your passengers.

Good luck Tim

 

[Lutz]

The 85% recommendation ALWAYS compares the fully laden weight of the caravan (MTPLM) with the kerbweight of the car. It therefore represents a worst case condition. Obviously, if you don't load the caravan fully and you put most of the heavy stuff in the car the actual ratio will be much more favourable, but the actual ratio is rather meaningless because it's not comparable with anything else.

 

[Lutz]

John,

My problem is more or less the same....see comments below your topic.It would seem 100% is o.k if you are experienced,my Van is going to be within 100 kg of the kerb weight of my Freelander.

I am going to go for it, see if I can keep the weight down in the Van and load the car up a bit.Kerb weight is also less your tow bar and you and your passengers.

Good luck Tim

Kerbweight includes the towbar and (according to EU standards)75kg for the driver but no passengers. It also includes, by the way, a 90% full fuel tank.

Kerbweight includes all permanent fittings such as towbars, whether factory-fitted or subsequently fitted. It is therefore neither a published figure nor is it necessarily the ex-works weight.

 

[wombat1]

The caravan club recommendations refer to the caravan MIRO plus the stuff you stick in it.

I had the same dilemna when I purchased my car/van combo.

Recommendations to use the van MTPLM in the calculation rather than what the vans loaded weight will actually be covers the arse of the person giving the advice.

Use your common sense.

 

[Meister]

and ............ there is also the matter of Maximum Axle Weight (load) for the towing vehicle and Gross Train Weight to consider but you have probably done that already.

Steve

 

[Lutz]

All databases (Whattowcar, Towsafe, etc.) base their calculations on the MTPLM of the caravan, Dadio. If they didn't, nothing would be comparable.

 

[Tim_5120839]

Kerbweight includes the towbar and (according to EU standards)75kg for the driver but no passengers. It also includes, by the way, a 90% full fuel tank.

Kerbweight includes all permanent fittings such as towbars, whether factory-fitted or subsequently fitted. It is therefore neither a published figure nor is it necessarily the ex-works weight.

Lutz,

The Kerb weight in my Freelander owners book says the Kerb weight is the vehicle with all levels, full fuel tank and NO people in the vehicle....and certainly no mention of a tow bar.

Thanks Tim

 

[Lutz]

Kerbweight includes the towbar and (according to EU standards)75kg for the driver but no passengers. It also includes, by the way, a 90% full fuel tank.

Kerbweight includes all permanent fittings such as towbars, whether factory-fitted or subsequently fitted. It is therefore neither a published figure nor is it necessarily the ex-works weight.

If Land Rover specify kerbweight without the driver, then this is not according to EU Standards.

The following is the definition of kerbweight according to the ECE TRANS/WP.29/78/Rev.1/Amend.2:

Paragraph 2.5.4. "Mass of a vehicle in running order" means the mass of an unladen vehicle with bodywork, and with coupling device in the case of a towing vehicle, or the mass of the chassis with cab if the manufacturer does not fit the bodywork and/or coupling device, including coolant, oils, 90 per cent of fuel, 100 per cent of other liquids except used waters, tools, spare wheel, driver (75 kg) and, for buses and coaches, the mass of the crew member (75 kg) if there is a crew seat in the vehicle.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello,

One reason why the MPTLM is used rather than the actual loaded weight for conformance with the legal limits, is that no one really knows what their caravan weighs, unless they take the time trouble and expense of having it weighed on each trip. Also it allows the road side authorities to assess an outfit without having to take every thing to a weighbridge.

This of course does not legislate for those who over load, but it is likely that well trained officer could suspect an overloaded outfit and could then arrange to have it properly assessed at a weighbridge.

Equally it does not prevent unsafe outfits, although an outfit can be compliant with the weight limits, it can be unsafe for other reasons such as loading, poor maintenance or simply bad driving.

This can be a complex subject and it would be unwise to simply rely on "common sense" as common sense seems to get it wrong quite often.

 

[Tim_5120839]

If Land Rover specify kerbweight without the driver, then this is not according to EU Standards.

The following is the definition of kerbweight according to the ECE TRANS/WP.29/78/Rev.1/Amend.2:

Paragraph 2.5.4. "Mass of a vehicle in running order" means the mass of an unladen vehicle with bodywork, and with coupling device in the case of a towing vehicle, or the mass of the chassis with cab if the manufacturer does not fit the bodywork and/or coupling device, including coolant, oils, 90 per cent of fuel, 100 per cent of other liquids except used waters, tools, spare wheel, driver (75 kg) and, for buses and coaches, the mass of the crew member (75 kg) if there is a crew seat in the vehicle.

Lutz,

My information was taken from Technical info in the Caravan Club Directory and Handbook, it states in there that the Kerb weight is normally

. With a full tank of fuel

. With an adequate supply of other liquids incidental to the vehicles propulsion.

. Without driver or passenger.

. Without any load except loose tools and equipment with which the vehicle is normally provided.

. Without any towing bracket.

If this is wrong then they need informing, because there are a lot of people running with incorrect information.

Thanks Tim

 

[Steve L]

First of all again I'll say, the 85% of kerbside weight of the car is a guide line figure and not the law.

What you have to find out is what your car is specified to tow by the manufacturer. As Meister has said you have to take "Gross train weight" into account. This is normally the highest figure quoted on the vehicle identification plate (VIN plate).

One of the best ways to get the info is by going to your HGV (lorry) testing station and having a chat with them. They are not only enforcers of legislation but human beings like us, and relish the challenge to give you friendly advice.

If like me you are towing right at the maximum tow capacity of your car and the caravan gross weight is say 50Kgs higher than you can legally tow, then reduce your luggage in the van accordingly but do not exceed the gross train weight.

I'll probably get shot down in flames for suggesting that, but it is a way round the law.

However I will say that you must be cautious when towing to the max. Anyway, how do people gain experience if they don't try.

Steve L

 

[Robert_374242026]

The kerbweight on our car is 1500klg our caravan is 1350, so we have to get it down to 1324klg, now all our clobber comes to 1400klg if in the caravan so we just put the rest in the car which is about same as if we were carrying two passengers with luggage. The noseweight check is carried out and off we go ,no problem ,it seems that many people are going overboard with this question , If after 20,000 miles and you have not had problems then it must be ok , just enjoy yourselves stop getting bogged down with all this.

 

[Lutz]

Why bother trying to get the weight of the caravan down from 1350kg to 1324kg unless there is a need to because you would otherwise be exceeding the MTPLM? The difference is only 26kg - hardly worth considering and you certainly won't detect any difference in the stability of the outfit.

 

[wombat1]

As I said above Lutz, use your common sense, down get bogged down with the 85% absolute max ratio, there abouts is probably OK. It is certainly legal.

As you said before all databases use the MTPLM as a guideline comparison, but it is not impossible to obtain a guidleine figure yourself for the loaded weight of your van - I did it.An example is given in the CC members handbook.

 

[Lutz]

85% is not necessarily legal. If the towload limit specified by the manufacturer is less than 85% it won't be.

In most cases, the actual weight ratio will be more favourable than whatever Whattowcar, Towsafe or any of the other databases come up with so I can't quite see the point of working out the actual figure. If you are already below 85% according to their data, what's the advantage of knowing your outfit is actually at, say, 75%? Conversely, if they calculate a figure over 85% it's just an indication of what the worst case would be that you would be faced with, assuming it's still legal to spec. It's just to make you aware, that's all. The actual number is pretty meaningless.

 

[wombat1]

85% is not necessarily legal. If the towload limit specified by the manufacturer is less than 85% it won't be.

In most cases, the actual weight ratio will be more favourable than whatever Whattowcar, Towsafe or any of the other databases come up with so I can't quite see the point of working out the actual figure. If you are already below 85% according to their data, what's the advantage of knowing your outfit is actually at, say, 75%? Conversely, if they calculate a figure over 85% it's just an indication of what the worst case would be that you would be faced with, assuming it's still legal to spec. It's just to make you aware, that's all. The actual number is pretty meaningless.

I wasn't expecting this to become too big a thing but...

As I said common sense, obviously, someone who has it, will also be aware of, the maximum legal limit their car can tow and the max towball weight.

When I first started looking at possible towcars for my dream van, I looked at this site for advice, and Towsafe and was disheartened to be led to believe that my target vehicle of Galaxy/Sharan/Alhambra couldn't cut the mustard for the 1550kg mtplm of my dream van. So I spoke to my next door neighbour, who had been towing for donkeys years, and he gave me the practical advice that seemed sensible to me, e.g. the car don't drive itself, and if I don't load 200kg of stuff in the van I will achieve a legal and sensible ratio for a complete newbie.

1000 touring miles behind me now since May, and I think I've made a good choice.

From what I've seen in terms of advice on this forum, it tends to be a bit academic and not practical enough for those who are new to this towing thing.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dadio and Robert,

"Common sense" is not good sense - a mistake that many people make.

If the law requires that you must keep your weights within a certain limit then that is what you must do, or potentially suffer the consequences of being detected. If by using "common sense" you ignore the law, and claiming common sense is not a defence in law,

Common sense is characterised by the fact that for any given situation there may be more than one opinion on the best or proper way to proceed. There may be a majority in favour of one solution, but regardless of the majority at least one and possibly all suggested solutions will be wrong. Therefore relying on "common sense" is always suspect.

The use of "good sense" means the factors are properly weighed and a balanced approach is the correct solution.

Robert - Simply claiming that 20,000 miles proves that your outfit is OK does not make it legal. Conversely a legally acceptable outfit may be horrible to tow.

Don't guess at loading regulations find out and do it properly.

 

[wombat1]

I've got a good un goin on ere!

Common sense , good sense by someone elses definition, whoever suggested going outside of the law?

When I posted my comment to Johns query, it was to suggest we focus on giving practical advice, not the words taken from a text book.

We should at least make the assumption that the forum users who post requests for advice, are able to educate/inform themselves with some direction provided by the replies to their query.

 

[Robert_374242026]

Re, my comments about our outfit ,caravan max'is 1350 klg but car although is 1400klg towing, because its kerbweight is 1500 klg and we use common/good sence we bring the caravan down to 1324 klg, now as i mentioned and Lutz overlooked my remark our "clobber" if in the caravan would come to 1400 klg so the balance goes in the car.As for doing all the checks i have put on Forum several threads i observed on uneven ground regarding towbar weights which was aired quite good with answers from Lutz,JohnL and others.

 

[Lutz]

Surely, if the maximum permissible weight (MTPLM) of the caravan is 1350kg then that (not forgetting also the max. towload of the car and gross train weight) is all you need to watch. I don't understand where the 1324kg comes from. Perhaps you can explain.

 

[Robert_374242026]

Surely, if the maximum permissible weight (MTPLM) of the caravan is 1350kg then that (not forgetting also the max. towload of the car and gross train weight) is all you need to watch. I don't understand where the 1324kg comes from. Perhaps you can explain.

Hello Lutz.I made a error on the car kerb weight, i quoted the basic model which is 1500klg but ours has dsg box and other extras which brings it up to 1560klg so using the 85% guide line it makes our caravan weight 1326 klg and as i said if we put all the usual things in the caravan it would have brought it to 1400 klg. So we put the 74 klg in the car . Am i right?.

 

[Robert_374242026]

Surely, if the maximum permissible weight (MTPLM) of the caravan is 1350kg then that (not forgetting also the max. towload of the car and gross train weight) is all you need to watch. I don't understand where the 1324kg comes from. Perhaps you can explain.

PS have taken our Pastish 460/2 twice to the weigh bridge the first time it weighed 1400 klg so i took everything out and it came to 1298 klg which made a mockery of Coachman unladen weight.

 

[Lutz]

I must admit I'm impressed by your fastidiousness to achieve a 85% weight ratio but to be honest, I don't quite see the point of working with such accuracy. After all, if you were to load the caravan right up to its MTPLM of 1350kg, your weight ratio would only increase to 86.5% and I challenge anyone to be able to detect any affect on stability of the outfit with such a small change.

 

[Robert_374242026]

I must admit I'm impressed by your fastidiousness to achieve a 85% weight ratio but to be honest, I don't quite see the point of working with such accuracy. After all, if you were to load the caravan right up to its MTPLM of 1350kg, your weight ratio would only increase to 86.5% and I challenge anyone to be able to detect any affect on stability of the outfit with such a small change.

Thank you Lutz, i have never worked out the percentage and am surprised at the little differance it makes, however even when we towed to Cornwall and back on the very first trip it was only the fuel consumption that made me aware something was wrong as it towed without any problems with the 1400 klg aboard instead of 1350 klg.This was because i was taking Coachmans unladen weights and me not adding the Mover weight.Hence me taking it to the weigh bridge.