85% rule guideline too stringent?

[michael_5066480]

I tow a Sterling Elite Trekker MRO 1446KG. My car is a BMW 530 Touring diesel. On a weighbridge without anything in it I'm at exactly 1760KG.

With four passengers in the car and all the other kit I must tip the scales at over 2000KG

Admittedly I need to add to the van weight gas, clothes, food etc.

If I look at all towing guidelines my outfit on paper looks a nightmare. In my experience and we've only used it three times

the car tows like a dream and the outfit feels rock solid.

Comments please?

 

[VIP2006]

Michael - Ignore the rule at your peril.

 

[WatsonJohnG]

The Caravan Club on page 604 of the handbook (so it must be true) say that up to 85% is OK ,equal MAYBE ,over 100% NO

The phrase I have seen often quoted is experienced drivers may go to 100%.Obviously the bigger the difference between car and caravan the better but it is only a guide that leaves room for common sense to prevail.

 

[Steve L]

The 85% "guide" is there to try to give the inexperienced tower a safety margin. the tow car should still be in control of the van.

You can legally tow upto the maximum tow capacity of your car which in most cases is nearer the 100% and in the case of the big 4x4 it is well over. For instance a Landrover County LWB can pull 4500kgs.

I tow at 100% of my Renault Laguna's tow limit (1350Kgs) by towing a twenty foot twin axle van (1360Kgs max gross max weight). It tows very well and is certainly well within the capability of the 2Ltr fuel injected tow car. The stability of the unit and the ability to stop quickly are all very good. Sure at a total of 38feet long it is quite big and I have been checked by the boy's in blue who thought they had a field day comming when they saw the size of the van, but all they could say was "it looked too big for the car". They did confirm that it was legal however, after two hours of pawing over every nut and bolt etc.

 

[mike_5041102]

I wouldn't say the 85% guideline is too stringent, more that is aimed at providing a safe limit for the totally inexperienced. The method often used in much of Europe is a 75% ratio of the caravan plus load to the car plus load. This is superior to the simplistic English 85% as it adds to safety by encouraging the carrying of heavy items in the car. So you should be ok once you have crossed the channel.

 

[michael_5066480]

The 85% "guide" is there to try to give the inexperienced tower a safety margin. the tow car should still be in control of the van.

You can legally tow upto the maximum tow capacity of your car which in most cases is nearer the 100% and in the case of the big 4x4 it is well over. For instance a Landrover County LWB can pull 4500kgs.

I tow at 100% of my Renault Laguna's tow limit (1350Kgs) by towing a twenty foot twin axle van (1360Kgs max gross max weight). It tows very well and is certainly well within the capability of the 2Ltr fuel injected tow car. The stability of the unit and the ability to stop quickly are all very good. Sure at a total of 38feet long it is quite big and I have been checked by the boy's in blue who thought they had a field day comming when they saw the size of the van, but all they could say was "it looked too big for the car". They did confirm that it was legal however, after two hours of pawing over every nut and bolt etc.

Were you put on a weighbridge?

Were the police specifcly targettig caravans?

 

[Lutz]

Currently, an 80% limit applies in Germany if you want to tow at 100kph instead of the general speed limit of 80kph when towing. This limit is, however, in the process of being raised to 100% subject to other conditions being met (the towcar must have ABS, the caravan hydraulic shock absorbers and, of course, appropriate tyre equipment).

 

[gareth_5040398]

it's not all about the weight of the car to caravan ratio is it. there are other factors to consider:

how much overhang is there from the rear wheel to the towball,

how much towing experience you have

how much the suspension deflects

the centre of gravity

etc

I think that to ignore the 85% rule is folly, how many 'vans have we seen on their sides at the bottom of moderate declines or hold us all up on moderate inclines?

 

[mike_5041102]

Currently, an 80% limit applies in Germany if you want to tow at 100kph instead of the general speed limit of 80kph when towing. This limit is, however, in the process of being raised to 100% subject to other conditions being met (the towcar must have ABS, the caravan hydraulic shock absorbers and, of course, appropriate tyre equipment).

Lutz, Can you expand on the increase to 100% a little ? I would like to know where that information comes from.

 

[parker1158]

Hi All

It would seem to me ignoring the well documented advice on towing weights is much like pointing a gun at your head with only one bullit in a chamber or giving your children matches to play with, you may be lucky most of the time but if your luck was to run out..................?

 

[ProfJohnL]

To Michael, Shiraz, & Gareth,

I agree that the 85% figure it is a sensible figure to aim at but is only a Guide, it is not enshrined in any UK law and so it is not a rule.

The stability of an outfit is dependant on many factors, weight ratio is one but by no means the only significant one, weight distribution, tyre pressures and of course the ability of the drive to control the outfit amongst many.

The caravans Gareth sees at the road side are more likely to be on thier sides as a result of excesive speed (for the conditions and the outfit) than simply a higher weight ratio than 85%.

 

[Redragon]

The 85% "guide" is there to try to give the inexperienced tower a safety margin. the tow car should still be in control of the van.

You can legally tow upto the maximum tow capacity of your car which in most cases is nearer the 100% and in the case of the big 4x4 it is well over. For instance a Landrover County LWB can pull 4500kgs.

I tow at 100% of my Renault Laguna's tow limit (1350Kgs) by towing a twenty foot twin axle van (1360Kgs max gross max weight). It tows very well and is certainly well within the capability of the 2Ltr fuel injected tow car. The stability of the unit and the ability to stop quickly are all very good. Sure at a total of 38feet long it is quite big and I have been checked by the boy's in blue who thought they had a field day comming when they saw the size of the van, but all they could say was "it looked too big for the car". They did confirm that it was legal however, after two hours of pawing over every nut and bolt etc.

Hurrah!! Another Renault Laguna used as a tow car!! I've got the 2L estate version and tow a 23ft Avondale Dart 556/6, and it tows wonderfully!!!

 

[tjambarker]

I've often wondered whether a civil action could be bought against someone who was significantly over the guideline figure. What I'm saying is that if you ignore the accepted safety guidelines for something and it can be proved that you knowingly did so then surely you're guilty of something!

 

[Viking1]

LGNORE THIS RULE CUD COST YOU YORU LIFF AND SO ONEELSER AS WELL. AND YOU MIT NOT BE INSHRON AS WE .

 

[Steve L]

Were you put on a weighbridge?

Were the police specifcly targettig caravans?

I was put over a weigh bridge and was under the gross train by 150Kgs. The police were not realy targeting anyone they just passed by turned round and had a look, as they are perfectly entitled to.

 

[Steve L]

Hurrah!! Another Renault Laguna used as a tow car!! I've got the 2L estate version and tow a 23ft Avondale Dart 556/6, and it tows wonderfully!!!

Mine's a 2 ltr RT estate and I tow a LINK 575. I've had Renaults since 1984 and quite frankly they blow the opposition away from a point of both quality and running costs. I rarely spend over

 

[VIP2006]

To John L - I stated that you ignore the 85% rule (recommendation) at your peril.

I could have stated that having had the experience of snaking and writing off a caravan, I would also add the following things you should ensure you do when towing.

1 - Ensure that the towcar tyres are at the pressure for towing

2 - Load the caravan so that the the recommended noseweight is acheived, but not exceeding the noseweight allowed for the car.

3 - Get good mirrors and use them constantly whilst towing so that you know when the big lorries are approaching

4 - when going downhill do not under any circumstances go faster than 50mph and have the car control the van at all times.

there are many other aspects that contribute to good towing and safety and as I stated before ignore the 85% rule at your peril.

When my incident occurred around 1990 I decided to tow with the heaviest car I could find (very few 4X4's in those days) i could afford. and following the CC guidelines I feel a more confident caravan tower. IMHO

 

[PaulA3]

It is against the law to tow a caravan with a laden weight greater than the unladen weight of the towing vehcicle if you passed your driving test after 1 JANUARY 1997 with out taking a further towing driving test.

for further information see here http://www.dvla.gov.uk/drivers/dl_towing_trailers.htm

 

[Lutz]

Currently, an 80% limit applies in Germany if you want to tow at 100kph instead of the general speed limit of 80kph when towing. This limit is, however, in the process of being raised to 100% subject to other conditions being met (the towcar must have ABS, the caravan hydraulic shock absorbers and, of course, appropriate tyre equipment).

I don't know of any website in English with more information about the prospective 100% limit but there are, of course, lots in German. In short, the caravan has to have tyres of the correct speed and (of course) weight rating and hydraulic shock absorbers and the towcar must be fitted with ABS. If all conditions are fulfilled, you (currently) have to take the outfit to the German equivalent of the MOT, who confirm that everything is technically OK. Armed with this paperwork, you go to the local office of the Vehicle Registration Dept. who will supply you with the necessary 100kph sticker to display on the back of the caravan. That's how it works at the moment but I believe they are planning to simplify the process when the limit will be raised from 80% to 100% and you will then no longer have to take the outfit to the German MOT any more.

 

[Lutz]

I've often wondered whether a civil action could be bought against someone who was significantly over the guideline figure. What I'm saying is that if you ignore the accepted safety guidelines for something and it can be proved that you knowingly did so then surely you're guilty of something!

Like so many others have written, the 85% guideline has no legal bearing so you cannot be guilty of not observing it. It's just sensible to do so. The only legal restrictions are what the manufacturers specify regarding towload, gross train weight, noseweight, axle loads, etc. and, of course, what your driving licence allows you to tow.

 

[tjambarker]

Like so many others have written, the 85% guideline has no legal bearing so you cannot be guilty of not observing it. It's just sensible to do so. The only legal restrictions are what the manufacturers specify regarding towload, gross train weight, noseweight, axle loads, etc. and, of course, what your driving licence allows you to tow.

I'm not suggesting the 85% guidance has any legality. What I'm saying is if you had an accident and there was no grounds for a police procecution. There is no reason why someone couldn't take a civil action against you for causing damage to them or their property. The courts would then have to decide whether you had done something outside of the accepted norm!

 

[ProfJohnL]

I'm not suggesting the 85% guidance has any legality. What I'm saying is if you had an accident and there was no grounds for a police procecution. There is no reason why someone couldn't take a civil action against you for causing damage to them or their property. The courts would then have to decide whether you had done something outside of the accepted norm!

Tim

I think I understand where you are coming from, but if somebody damages any of your property whether it be deliberate or accidental I don't think would change the courts view, the fact that damages was done by the defendant and how much it costs to repair to the condition prior to the event would be the issue

 

[RayS]

Unfortunately, the so-called 85% rule is a compromise desigen for popular consumption.

As any engineer will tell you ( including me) there is a tolerance about any figure of this nature and there can be any number of one-off exceptions.

This is like saying the "average" body temperature is 98.4F (old money) when we all know many perfectly healthy people whose temperature is either side of this figure.

The 85% rule is still the best general guidance available - particularly for beginners - and may incorporate a small margin of safety - I don't know (see motorway speed limit - who sticks exactly to 70 indicated ?)

Unfortunately we are an increasingly innumerate population and I find it very depressing that even so-called professionsals (doctors etc. ) do not understand the difference between average, mean and median, or standard deviation or Gauss distribution. This may not matter much when towing, but scares many people silly when applied to their blood pressure, cholesterol level etc. So please take the 85% rule for what it was intended to be - guidance, based on some theory and much experience.

 

[Lutz]

Quite right, Ray but the problem is that while many people accept the fact that the 85% figure is not written in stone, they are unsure of the margin of leeway within the constraints set by legal restrictions, i.e. do things get genuinely unsafe at 90%?, at 95%, at 100% or even beyond that, always assuming that the maximum permissible towload allows higher values. Unfortunately, nobody can give a clear-cut answer to that question because the answer depends on so many variables, like technical equipment, one's own driving style, the weather, etc. It should be worth pointing out, though, that the maximum permissible towloads specified by the car manufacturers are just that and make no allowance whether you are towing, for example, a relatively critical slab-sided caravan or an inherently much more stable low-loader trailer. This makes for a relatively large grey area between what one would call safe without reservation and what should be avoided at all costs but I would say that anything over 100% (where allowed) should be treated with great respect and not in conjunction with any high-sided trailer such as caravans, regardless of how experienced you are.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Well said Lutz,

I would amplify your last sentence to include all journeys on the roads - with or without trailers should be trated with great respect - sadly there are a few idots who do not.