A lesson well learned!

[chrisphoto]

Hello.

I just wanted to share our nightmare experience of buying a used first caravan so others may avoid our mistake!

After several weeks of searching for a good quality used 4 berth van under £3,000 we finally stumbled across what appeared to be the perfect caravan - a 2000 Fleetwood Chatsworth EK. The dealer was extremely nice, state the van was dry and had absolutely no damp, offered a 3 month warranty on appliances only, included a gas bottle, stated the van would be fully serviced and safety checked, and agreed to repair a small crack in the shower tray. We agreed to purchase the caravan as, after all, he is a dealer and so what can go wrong?

We got the caravan home today and excitedly started to test everything, remove curtains to wash and so on. We opened the front centre window and then the nightmare started - the entire front of the caravan is rotten inside. Dry rotten wood fell out, the window almost fell out, our dream was shattered. So far the dealer has not replied to my phone calls, but hopefully we will get everything sorted out tomorrow. The invoice fortunately does not say 'sold as seen' or 'sold with damp' or anything like that and so we should have recourse for a refund under the Sale of Goods Act as it is not fit for purpose, but that does not help us go away in two weeks for my birthday. Hopefully we will not have to enter in to a legal battle to get our money back, but my bank have already said they will claim the money back if the dealer refuses a refund as I used a debit card to pay for it.

The moral is do not trust anyone when purchasing a caravan. Even reputable dealers can con buyers - I find it very hard to believe the very experienced and long established dealer was unaware of the problem.

Chris and Helen.

 

[SamandRose]

Unlucky. Hope you don't have too much trouble getting a refund and better luck next time!

 

[Gagakev]

Seems a bit suspect from the start...3 month warranty on appliances only??
Did you receive a copy of the service paperwork?
Not many peoples recommendation but I would be taking that van back tomorrow and requesting a full refund if that failed I would park it across his entrance until he refunds the full amount, con artist like this really wind me up!
Good luck and hope you sort it soon.

 

[Parksy]

I'm sorry to see that you appear to have been conned by a caravan dealer and I hope that you quickly get the full refund that you are due.
When thousands of pounds are involved for a used caravan it might pay to engage the services of an independent mobile caravan engineer to check the caravan before you part with a substantial sum of money.
It would be nice to think that a dealer would be trustworthy but sadly this is not always the case.

 

[saint-spoon]

My sympathies are with you and I sincerely hope that you get your money back.

 

[Thingy]

My sympathies too. But there is a lesson to be learned here, particularly in the caravan world as one of the biggest issues blighting us is that of damp.

Never, ever buy a caravan on somebody elses say so that it isnt damp. A small hand held damp meter costs peanuts, under a tenner, and I would never buy a caravan without doing my own checks as Im sure everyone else here will tell you.

Caravanning is a bit of a learning curve, especially in the used sector. I hope you get your money back without problems, and Im sure you wiil. The item sold is NOT FIT FOR PURPOSE and thats all you need to win this.

Good luck.

 

[ricky_s]

It may well be worth putting the dealers details on here if that is allowed, the quicker he is out of business the better.

 

[Raywood]

I take it you have demanded your money back. If the dealer delays or tries to fob you off just issue a small claims summons and do not waste time on the rogue. If he does not pay send in the bailiffs.
Citizens advice website has a lot of help.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

It may well be worth putting the dealers details on here if that is allowed, the quicker he is out of business the better.

Unfortunately not allowed - see Etiquette rules.

Rule 4. You may not transmit complaints about named companies or caravan parks. Such individual issues should be taken up with the company direct.

 

[ricky_s]

It may well be worth putting the dealers details on here if that is allowed, the quicker he is out of business the better.

Unfortunately not allowed - see Etiquette rules.

Rule 4. You may not transmit complaints about named companies or caravan parks. Such individual issues should be taken up with the company direct.

That's a shame but rules are rules.

 

[chrisphoto]

Hi everyone and thank you for the supportive messages. We have decided to let the dealer repair the damp and reseal the caravan rather than have our money back. The reasons for this are:

1. The van is in amazing condition inside other than the awful mess in the front panel.
2. We visited 2 other 'reputable' dealers yesterday to look at similarly priced and higher priced vans. Of the 10 or so we looked at, 7 were badly rotten in almost exactly the same place. Both dealers 'feigned' surprise and said they would be repaired if we agreed to buy.
3. Our next door neighbour has a 2 year old very expensive caravan that has to go for 6 weeks of rebuilding due to damp and rot in exactly the same place ours has.
4. The dealer is on the Cravan Club's list of approved repairers so should be able to carry out the work. He has agreed to let me inspect the repair before he puts the new internal wall boards on.

So overall I think the dealer was trying to get away with selling a damp caravan and hoping we would either not notice or would come back for repair at a later date, but it seems other dealers try to do exactly the same thing. If the repair isn't done properly I will definitely demand a refund though.

 

[Raywood]

Glad the dealer is putting it right and letting you check this. Yes I am afraid the industry is prone to turning out leaky caravans and I am afraid that when buying second hand an independent inspection might be your safest option particularly if you are a newcomer.

 

[Hutch]

I changed a Sterling Eccles Jewel, for a new Coachman, the dealer on hand over tried to tell me that I had a repair on the front, when I pointed out that there had not been a repair there and it was the gel coat cracked, and as I repaired Helicopter blades and knew what I was talking about he backed down, but got me on damp around the overhead window near the shower, got him down from £500 to a £100. , They are rouges, never trust them as with anyone selling used products, They want YOUR money. .

 

[JonnyG]

It may well be worth putting the dealers details on here if that is allowed, the quicker he is out of business the better.

Unfortunately not allowed - see Etiquette rules.

Rule 4. You may not transmit complaints about named companies or caravan parks. Such individual issues should be taken up with the company direct.

always a way around rules you merely follow them. so if you cannot name and shame you name and praise every single dealer in that area, except the rogue . :lol:

 

[Raywood]

I changed a Sterling Eccles Jewel, for a new Coachman, the dealer on hand over tried to tell me that I had a repair on the front, when I pointed out that there had not been a repair there and it was the gel coat cracked, and as I repaired Helicopter blades and knew what I was talking about he backed down, but got me on damp around the overhead window near the shower, got him down from £500 to a £100. , They are rouges, never trust them as with anyone selling used products, They want YOUR money. .

It is worth checking the caravan for damp yourself or having an engineer do this before taking it in for part exchange. If there is a problem then you are forwarned and if not you are ready for any false claims but having said that we have traded in five caravans and none have had found damp in them despite all being different dealers.
If a dealer allegedly finds damp and you are not happy with the new deal you can call the agreement frustrated and demand any deposit back.
If the dealer is local it is better if you can get them to check over your caravan before agreeing anything and you can then make your mind up on the whole deal.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I changed a Sterling Eccles Jewel, for a new Coachman, the dealer on hand over tried to tell me that I had a repair on the front, when I pointed out that there had not been a repair there and it was the gel coat cracked, and as I repaired Helicopter blades and knew what I was talking about he backed down, but got me on damp around the overhead window near the shower, got him down from £500 to a £100. , They are rouges, never trust them as with anyone selling used products, They want YOUR money. .

It is worth checking the caravan for damp yourself or having an engineer do this before taking it in for part exchange. If there is a problem then you are forwarned and if not you are ready for any false claims but having said that we have traded in five caravans and none have had found damp in them despite all being different dealers.
If a dealer allegedly finds damp and you are not happy with the new deal you can call the agreement frustrated and demand any deposit back.
If the dealer is local it is better if you can get them to check over your caravan before agreeing anything and you can then make your mind up on the whole deal.

Hello Ray
The few offers to px a caravan that I have seen have included a get out clause, ' subject to inspection' If your offer included that statement, and you accept the offer it is also deemed you have accepted the limiting statement and any reduction in value that might ensue.

The way round it is for you to insist on your caravan being inspected by the dealer before he makes an offer. That way they cannot change the offer later assuming no material damage or time lapse has arisen between offer and closure of deal.

 

[Raywood]

Hi Prof. I agree that where possible it is better to get the caravan inspected if possible before you agree but unfortunately this is not always possible. As you will be aware we have a Lunar but there is no Lunar dealer within fourty miles of us so we had to take a chance but we did have the caravan checked before trading it in so we knew where we stood.
I would have to disagree with you on the effect of the clause you refer to. the "subject to inspection" clause. This would have the effect of negating the contract if a problem is found as the contract would then be based on a fundamental misunderstanding and no longer enforceable. This means that either party can simply walk away and the deposit should be returned. To enforce the contract with a reduction in the part exchange the clause would have to specifically provide for that. It is however better to avoid that situation if possible.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi Prof. I agree that where possible it is better to get the caravan inspected if possible before you agree but unfortunately this is not always possible. As you will be aware we have a Lunar but there is no Lunar dealer within fourty miles of us so we had to take a chance but we did have the caravan checked before trading it in so we knew where we stood.
I would have to disagree with you on the effect of the clause you refer to. the "subject to inspection" clause. This would have the effect of negating the contract if a problem is found as the contract would then be based on a fundamental misunderstanding and no longer enforceable. This means that either party can simply walk away and the deposit should be returned. To enforce the contract with a reduction in the part exchange the clause would have to specifically provide for that. It is however better to avoid that situation if possible.

Yes I quite agree,

The problem is that in some cases the contract to purchase a new caravan is a separate legal contract to the PX, and granted the subject to inspection clause could cause the dealer to decline to px, yet still hold you to the new purchase, and you will have to find the additional funds. There was a case similar to this discussed some months ago, where because of a much reduced px offer on inspection , a customer did not have the funds to complete the new caravan purchase. They had to withdraw from the purchase and lost their considerable deposit.

So it pays to check the terms of the contract and if possible link them in such a way that the purchase deal is dependent on a minimum acceptable offer on the PX. and if the px offer is below the agreed amount, the customer has the right to a full withdrawal from contract and obligations.

 

[Raywood]

Hi Prof. I agree that where possible it is better to get the caravan inspected if possible before you agree but unfortunately this is not always possible. As you will be aware we have a Lunar but there is no Lunar dealer within fourty miles of us so we had to take a chance but we did have the caravan checked before trading it in so we knew where we stood.
I would have to disagree with you on the effect of the clause you refer to. the "subject to inspection" clause. This would have the effect of negating the contract if a problem is found as the contract would then be based on a fundamental misunderstanding and no longer enforceable. This means that either party can simply walk away and the deposit should be returned. To enforce the contract with a reduction in the part exchange the clause would have to specifically provide for that. It is however better to avoid that situation if possible.

Yes I quite agree,

The problem is that in some cases the contract to purchase a new caravan is a separate legal contract to the PX, and granted the subject to inspection clause could cause the dealer to decline to px, yet still hold you to the new purchase, and you will have to find the additional funds. There was a case similar to this discussed some months ago, where because of a much reduced px offer on inspection , a customer did not have the funds to complete the new caravan purchase. They had to withdraw from the purchase and lost their considerable deposit.

So it pays to check the terms of the contract and if possible link them in such a way that the purchase deal is dependent on a minimum acceptable offer on the PX. and if the px offer is below the agreed amount, the customer has the right to a full withdrawal from contract and obligations.

Hi Prof, I have not seen the separate contracts being used and if that happened I might not go ahead but I am far more used to watching the legal niceties than most. I do wonder if you could argue that the two contracts were interlinked and the cancellation of one allowed the cancellation of the other. I have seen a similar argument work on a completely different matter, but I think if it was me I would insist on adding something to this effect on the contract for the new caravan. It would be up to the dealer to reject that if he wished but I suspect most would go ahead with it added rather than lose a sale, but if not you may not want to go ahead.

 

[mealsonwheels]

Inform your local Trading Standards office about this dealer.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Inform your local Trading Standards office about this dealer.

Hello Mealsonwheels,
Your comment comes rather late in the proceedings

I'm not sure what Trading Standards could do about it. If the OP had been offered a cash sum for his old caravan as one contract, and maybe unwisely had agreed to purchase under a second contract, then both contracts stand independently. and the customer is responsible for any shortfall in the funds, and the seller can apply any sanctions as identified in the terms of the contract. It may be perceived as sharp practice, but looked at in isolation there is nothing wrong.

In all cases in England & Wales (Scottish law may be different) the buyer must take reasonable steps to ensure the contract is fully understood before agreeing to it.

To be able safely break the contract, the customer would have to be able to show that the traders intention was to defraud, or that the trader applied variations to contract after the contract had been agreed, or the terms of the contract were unfair as defined by the unfair contracts regulations.

I do not condone traders who set such large deposit requirements on what is essentially a standard item. But the customer should have taken the opportunity to fully read and understand the T&C of the contract before signing.

 

[pitpony]

Buying a caravan for the first time on your own then you are in the dealers hands and hopefully you don't get stuffed, but I'm afraid this does not only apply to used caravans but to brand spanking new ones like my neighbour down the road and this is with the new type build with no wooden timber frames involved, but in this case it comes down to British craftsmanship if that is the correct description to use, I wouldn't like to think that some spotty seventeen year old had been let loose with a drill and forgot to put certain grab handle holes in the right place which resulted in the locker box and the front end of the caravan wet through, this was not a one off case in fact the particular caravan manufacturer in question stopped production on Fridays just to do remedial work to this batch of caravans,