Had a look on the microsite of the Bailey Olympus series II last night and it gives a short list of suitable towcars for each of the new models, I was surprised to see a 2.0 Ford Focus estate listed as suitable for the new 5 berth model which has a MTPLM of 1450kg. I may be quite wrong, but this seems a bit heavy for that car to me, any thoughts?
A little surprised by recommended towcars - Bailey Olympus Microsite
- Thread starter Joann
- Start date
I made the same observations here
http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/towing-driving-and-safety/bailey-orion-promotional-advertising-material
with the Orion.
Mat
http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/towing-driving-and-safety/bailey-orion-promotional-advertising-material
with the Orion.
Mat
The information I have about the Focus estate 2.0 shows that the current model range only offers the 2.0 as TDCi diesel engine with outputs ranging from 138 to 163 bhp, there is no petrol version avilable.
In all versions of the model the unladen weight is 1460 to 1471Kg and in all cases the maximum towed weight is 1500Kg. This is entirely compatable with the Bailey claim, although the ratio is close but under 100%
Power totowing weight ratios arein excess of the 40bhp/tonne so it should have adequate power to tow.
In all versions of the model the unladen weight is 1460 to 1471Kg and in all cases the maximum towed weight is 1500Kg. This is entirely compatable with the Bailey claim, although the ratio is close but under 100%
Power totowing weight ratios arein excess of the 40bhp/tonne so it should have adequate power to tow.
Fair enough Prof, though for myself I would not want to be moving that kind of ratio uphill, in reverse on wet grass for example, I just don't have the experience.
Even with limited experience, 'that kind of ratio' is not going to be a problem going uphill or reversing. If at all it could be a problem on a motorway at 60mph on a windy day.
Even if the maximum towload is only 1400kg one would not be braking the law if the MTPLM is 1450kg because the towload is not the total weight of the caravan but only its axle load. The MTPLM is the sum of axle load and noseweight. Therefore, if the caravan were loaded to the full 1450kg total, unless the noseweight were less than 50kg (which would be illegal as the legal limit is 4% minimum which equates to 58kg), the combination would be marginal, but still legal.Surfer said:
Lutz said:
Lutz you seem to have this obssesion with the noseweight which in my opinion is wrong! If the caravan is removed from the car, you will be breaking the law as the Focus has a maximum braked tow weight of 1400kg. VOSA can request that you detach the trailer for purpose of weighing the trailer. Anyway the plated MAM of the trailer exceeds the maximum braked weight of the car therefore you can be prosecuted! Simples!
No it isn't that simple. If the caravan (in total) weighs not more than its plated 1450kg it is not braking the law.Surfer said:
The maximum braked weight that the car may tow is 1400kg and that is NOT the total weight of the caravan but its axle load. The caravan's brakes act only on the axle so the braked weight that the car is towing is only the load on the axle which is less than 1400kg, even if the MTPLM is 1450kg.
I'm in lutz's camp on this one,and it does keep coming up.PC is a caravan magazine surely it has a legal department that could look into this matter and clear it up once and for all. and i dont mean asking a so called expert,but a proper legal expert,as lutz's response makes perfect sense to me and yet to others it doesnt!
Just a short note for those who have difficulty in understanding:
Paragraph 2.6 of EU Directive 95/48/EC, as referenced in UK Construction & Use Regulations states, quote:
‘Towable mass' means the mass of the trailer towed excluding the
vertical load on the coupling point of the towing vehicle.
The 'vertical load on the coupling point of the towing vehicle' is clearly the noseweight.
Paragraph 2.6 of EU Directive 95/48/EC, as referenced in UK Construction & Use Regulations states, quote:
‘Towable mass' means the mass of the trailer towed excluding the
vertical load on the coupling point of the towing vehicle.
The 'vertical load on the coupling point of the towing vehicle' is clearly the noseweight.
Surely Vosa have to take the noseweight into consideration whether unhitched or not since once detatched your no longing towing the trailer and can therefore only prosecute on the towed weightsSurfer said:
In essence Lutz is saying that although my caravan is plated at MTPLM 1600kg and noseweight is 100kg legally the trailer can weigh in at 1700kg without me being prosecuted. Some how I don't think so regardless of any directives.
I dont think he is saying that Surfer.A MPTLM of 1600kg is a MPTLM of 1600kg,however,once you attach that van,if you then where to put scales under the wheels you would not get a reading of 1600kg
If you read my posts correctly you will note that I am not saying that at all. If the MTPLM is 1600kg then the caravan can weigh no more than 1600kg, full stop. However, if the noseweight is 100kg then this 1600kg caravan can be legally towed behind a car with a 1500kg maximum towload. That is what I am saying. 1700kg doesn't come into it at all. You can't keep adding noseweight. You've got to know when you have to subtract, too.Surfer said:
So an Insignia with a maximum braked towing weight of 1600kg can legally tow a caravan with plated MTPLM of 1700kg if the noseweight is 100kg?Lutz said:
In essence that is correct except that an Insignia has an 85kg noseweight allowance, not 100kg, so the maximum plated MTPLM that it could tow would be 1685kg.Surfer said:
Hello Surfer,
I'm not sure why you think that VOSA and the other authorities are not bound by the Directives and regulations. Granted they are quite complex, and you have to have your wits about you to sometimes see the methods and logic, but they generally are logical, and that can become clearer if you stop and think about what is actually happening when you couple a trailer to a tug.
I have recently made a mistake regarding the interpretation of Gross weight and towed weight, - probably a senior moment, but the regulations and directives are quite specific, and you do need to know the differences between what appear to be quite similar terms.
Lutz has been very consistent with his interpretation on the matter of nose loads, and it does make logical sense, which in this case may seem to counter intuitive.
Fortunately, if you choose to disbelieve the directive, then if you stick to a caravan with an MTPLM that does not exceed the cars max towed weight, then you are within the limit by the value of the nose weight - no harm done.
I'm not sure why you think that VOSA and the other authorities are not bound by the Directives and regulations. Granted they are quite complex, and you have to have your wits about you to sometimes see the methods and logic, but they generally are logical, and that can become clearer if you stop and think about what is actually happening when you couple a trailer to a tug.
I have recently made a mistake regarding the interpretation of Gross weight and towed weight, - probably a senior moment, but the regulations and directives are quite specific, and you do need to know the differences between what appear to be quite similar terms.
Lutz has been very consistent with his interpretation on the matter of nose loads, and it does make logical sense, which in this case may seem to counter intuitive.
Fortunately, if you choose to disbelieve the directive, then if you stick to a caravan with an MTPLM that does not exceed the cars max towed weight, then you are within the limit by the value of the nose weight - no harm done.
It was easier to use round figues as an example, but I get the point. As per John I prefer my interpretation as is probably the way that VOSA will interpret it. As for EU directives there are many that are not part of British law or regulations as British regulations may be superior, i.e. Sale of Goods Act.Lutz said:
Like it or not, EU Directives ARE part of British Law once they have been ratified by the UK government, as in the case here. This has been done by referencing the Directives in the respective UK Construction and Use Regulations.Surfer said:
Hello Surfer,
May I make it clear that I do not agree with your interpretation, it does no concure with the written directive or UK regulations.
I simply pointed out that your method of calulating your tow load would keep you well within the law but that does not make it the law or the methodoligy of the way the law operates.
Be under no doubt; the UK Law is set by the UK regulation which is based on the adopted UE directive that has been ratified.
You make a very seriuios allegation:-
"I prefer my interpretation as is probably the way that VOSA will interpret it"
What evidence do you have that VOSA will not follow the detail of the directive? If you have any you should point us to it.
May I make it clear that I do not agree with your interpretation, it does no concure with the written directive or UK regulations.
I simply pointed out that your method of calulating your tow load would keep you well within the law but that does not make it the law or the methodoligy of the way the law operates.
Be under no doubt; the UK Law is set by the UK regulation which is based on the adopted UE directive that has been ratified.
You make a very seriuios allegation:-
"I prefer my interpretation as is probably the way that VOSA will interpret it"
What evidence do you have that VOSA will not follow the detail of the directive? If you have any you should point us to it.
Do you even understand the word "allegation"? Seems not as I am still mystified by your use of this word with reference to my text unless you misunderstood my text. Do you have any evidence that VOSA will interpret the directive correctly? Are ypu prepared to take that chance? We all know that Britsh law is generally ratified through case law!Prof John L said:
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