A tongue in cheek advantage of increasing the 85% to 90% or more !!!.

[Steve L]

While I agree the vin plates do show gross train weight (car & trailer) and gross weight (car fully loaded including roof rack load) and axle weights for the car, there is no clear description on most and furthermore no actual statement of towing capacity.

Now with mty HGV and extensive towing knowledge, I can work out with simple math, what size trailer I can tow. But there are a lot of caravanners out there who can not read a vin plate let alone understand it.

So that is why I would like to see a vin plate clearly placed on the car (not hiden in the door post between doors on a 4 door car), idealy it should be in the boot area of a car, as that is mostly where the dead weight goes and where you stand to hook on your trailer. Then the VIN plate should state what unbraked and what braked trailer weight can be towed, plus a defined hitch weight.

The hitch weight is even left to the towbar manufacturer to define and display.

I tow probably all the varieties of trailer available and it is a nightmare trying to explain or workout some axle weights. for instance, I got stopped while towing an empty twin horse trailer because the trailer was very nose down. The VOSA inspector was adament that the front axle wheel bearings on the box were clapped out as they were hotter than the rear ones. I took issue and explained that purely by construction a horse trailer is very nose heavy until a horse stands over the axles. So it is quite normal to expect that the majority of the trailer weight is born by the front axle when the trailer is empty. I had the policeman agreeing with me and the VOSA man throwing his dollies out of his pram. But the one that mattered could see the logic for once.

 

[Lutz]

Lutz, are you suffering with insomnia?

Allan.

Jetlag actually. Returned from New Zealand on Friday and haven't quite readjusted my biological clock yet.

Steve, the reason why the VIN plate is where it is (on the door post or ahead of the dash panel) is that those locations are least susceptible to major damage in the event of an accident and the police, insurance companies, etc. can readily identify the chassis number even if the car is severely damaged.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Does it really matter where the Vin plate is positioned, locate it read the information that it provides and load your vehicle accordingly, unless that is you are suffering with memory loss and you need it to hand every time you hitch up

. In the case of an HGV trailer you will not find it in the most convenient place where you would expect to find it, ie on the bulk head where you connect your Suzie's, I will let Steve tell us where we can locate that one, then you will appreciate how convenient and easy it is to locate and read a car Vin plate.

The hitch weight is not down to the tow bar maker to define, but the manufacturer of the car, the bar maker is duty bound by law to display the relevant weights on a plate clearly visible on the tow bar.
How can it be a nightmare trying to work out axle weights? if axle No 1 is designed to carry 2 tons, and axle No2 3 tons, then that is the maximum weight they are designed to carry,and you load to within that criteria. The only time I ever found it a nightmare was when HGV`s grossed at 32 tons on 4 axles, and with a fixed 5th wheel it was a struggle sometimes not to overload the front axle (tractor unit) normally achieved by placing the load further back from the bulkhead.
I'm no mechanic, but would be concerned if my wheel bearings alone were allowing the wheels to heat up. Towing an empty trailer of any description in my opinion should not heat up the wheels, only incorrectly adjusted brakes, or excessive braking would normally have that effect, and not normally an item "wheel tappers" would be looking for, unless they were excessively hot.

Allan.

 

[JonnyG]

"I had the policeman agreeing with me and the VOSA man throwing his dollies out of his pram. But the one that mattered could see the logic for once" !
having been served a notice stopping me from continuing my journey, until I produced driving sheets for 4 weeks! by VOSA [left them in my bag in the office, my own fault] Your statement makes me laugh. A VOSA guy can impound your vehicle regardless, if he thinks its a danger,until checked by a competent mechanic for roadworthy and a policeman, not being a competent mechanic, would not over ride what the VOSA guy thought, This is VOSA s territory now and not the police. In other words VOSA guy does matter, what he says goes....

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Spot on Jonny, the police are there in the first instance to initiate the " FOLLOW ME" then to enforce the VOSA findings, or as it used to be in my Day a GV9, not sure if that has changed or not, most probably got some PC wording for it now

Allan.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Steve, the reason why the VIN plate is where it is (on the door post or ahead of the dash panel) is that those locations are least susceptible to major damage in the event of an accident and the police, insurance companies, etc. can readily identify the chassis number even if the car is severely damaged.

Yes,and if God Forgive a fatality and the vehicle goes on fire and there is little or nothing to DNA or identify by reading personal papers etc;the Vin Plate can be cut out by the attending crew with their Swiss Army Knives,DVLA contacted and the Registered Keeper identified as a starting point. If the registration plates are intact the NPRC will flag up the same details to make progress from.

 

[Lutz]

Getting back to TravellingRooster's original proposal, it virtually amounts to working out weight ratios based on actual towcar weight rather than kerbweight (or MIRO, or Mass in Service, or unladen weight, or whatever). Somehow I just can't see everyone popping down to the local weighbridge first after packing to go away for the weekend to check what the actual weight is.

 

[Steve L]

Hi Cookie.
You have to look for the wieght plate on an artic trailer on the left hand main chassis rail. That is done because a variety of bodys can be fitted to a skeletal chassis. Generally the tractor unit used to have the plate mounted on or near the lefthand door. this was done to facilitate safe reading by roadside inspectors.
Now then Jonny. I can only quote what actually happened to me and in the case of the Horse box, it was the policman who overrode the VOSA chap. You cna get wheel bearings and brakes for that matter being warmer on the axle carying the most load.

As for siting the VIN plate I would of thought that one mounted near to the tow bar would be much easier to read, and if the level of detail I've suggested applied, it would be 99% undisputable if the driver has over loaded his vehicle.
Until there is some form of competency test for trailer tower's and harmonisation between vehicle and trailer manufacturers there is little point in relying upon mythical 85 or 90% of kerb weights to give suggestion of safer towing.
At present the loading guide in our mag is a good base point for people to follow for balancing their caravan and if people follow that together with using the correct nose weight and establishing from the tow car manufacturer just exactly what their car will tow, plus a trip to a local weigh bridge to check they are operating within the vin plate information. They are being about as responsible as they can be.
Now here's a couple of questions I would like everyone to answer. Have you ever yourself checked on a weigh bridge your car and caravan to see if your operating within the law? If so, when?

I check my van and car once a year just to make sure my load plan works and that we are legal. I use my local farmers merchant in Leominster. Cost £5. After that I check the nose weight before every journey to make sure we are balanced correctly.

 

[Parksy]

...........I check my van and car once a year just to make sure my load plan works and that we are legal. I use my local farmers merchant in Leominster. Cost £5. After that I check the nose weight before every journey to make sure we are balanced correctly.

I thought that you lived in your caravan permanently and only moved to a different pitch in the winter before going back to your seasonal summer pitch?

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Steveinleo, so we have now established that goods vehicle trailers whether they be skeletal, curtain sider, tipper, trombone, or whatever combination of body fitted do not place there weight plate in the most convenient of places, and these are designed to carry loads day in day out. In comparison to a private motor car just having to lift the bonnet up to read the vin plate is a dodle, i know what one I would rather read at 4 AM on a winters morning pouring down with rain. Does it matter where it is placed, why would you want to look at it every time you hook your trailer up, In my case most weekends winter and summer, we are in the 21st century information is redally available at your fingertips, and do not forget a private motor car is primarily designed to carry passengers, with only a small percentage being used to tow trailers, see how many tow bars you can spot the next time you are out.
　
You check your van and car once a year just to make sure your load plan works and that you are legal....................................................I check mine every time I take to the road.
　
"So it is quite normal to expect that the majority of the trailer weight is born by the front axle when the trailer is empty"
　
.You Can get wheel bearings and brakes for that matter being warmer on the axle carrying the most load.
Again I am no mechanic, but as previously stated I would be most concerned if any trailer I was towing unladen caused the wheels to run warm, I stand correcting if wrong, but if that was the case I would suspect a faulty wheel bearing, binding brakes, excessive braking caused by poor driving style.
　
Allan.

 

[seth1]

Personally i would say its harder to read the vin plate on a car than artic trailer.For instance on a car you have to raise the bonnet,that can be quite trickey to find the release inside.On a trailer its right there on the nearside most of the time next to the mot disc and plating certificate.But whats hard about either?Steve why is the horsebox trailer leaning down at the front anyway?

 

[Lutz]

For instance on a car you have to raise the bonnet,that can be quite trickey to find the release inside.

Seems like you never check the engine oil or full up the screenwasher fluid then?

 

[ProfJohnL]

I do think the vehicle manufactures of the regulators should look at standardising the definitions of vehicle masses, and whilst the current data plates do include GWM and GTM and maximum axle loads, I believe it should also should include the maximum permitted towed mass as part of a data plate. This would certainly keep the information with the specific vehicle to which it pertains.
Returning to the headline “A tongue in cheek advantage of increasing the 85% to 90% or more !!!”
We have established there are a variety of different ways of describing the tow vehicles weight or mass, and as a result using any calculation to produce a towing ratio is going to result in different final values.
Various people have reported significant differences between any published and real measured values and in some cases a variance of over 100Kg in a 1300Kg vehicle is more than 5%, and so an derived towing ratio will already be more than 5% in error, a consequence is the notional 85% figure is already unreliable. Any thought of producing a different target figure such as 90% will still suffer the same uncertainty and be equally misleading as it still gives the impression to some people it represents a ‘safety guarantee’ and still disregards the vehicle manufacturers proven technical data for the vehicle.
Very few of us leisure caravanners and domestic trailer towers actually check that we have not overloaded our cars and trailers, and I am fairly convinced that many caravans are actually overloaded when you see some families arrive on site, and a mountain of luggage bikes awnings chairs tables, BBQ’s magically appear from within the caravan.
Unfortunately we are discussing two systems the car mass specifications and the 85% guidance that despite years of discussion and banging our heads on brick walls the relevant industries still refuse to cooperate and are unlikely to do so unless forced by regulation.
Well we can all dream of utopia, can’t we?

 

[Lutz]

As long as the 85%, 90% or whatever is only a recommendation, variances in published data are not going cause any major problem, but what if the weight ratio were to be a legal requirement, as in Germany? One would certainly need to be more specific then. In Germany it is the figure quoted in the equivalent of the V5c certificate that counts and nothing else.

 

[Steve L]

...........I check my van and car once a year just to make sure my load plan works and that we are legal. I use my local farmers merchant in Leominster. Cost £5. After that I check the nose weight before every journey to make sure we are balanced correctly.

I thought that you lived in your caravan permanently and only moved to a different pitch in the winter before going back to your seasonal summer pitch?

I do live in the van permanently Parksy. I move the van on 7th Jan and 1st March annually. So therefore on the 7th I call in at the weigh bridge and on the 1st I just check the noseweight. Although I only move 20 miles between sites, I still check weights.
When I have been holidaying in the past, i check the van annually and nose weight before each run.

Blimy, having to justify every word I say is getting beyond a joke.

But at least I don't hide behind micro print like some folks.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Welcome home Lutz,

I do agree with your last post, however there is a legal aspect in respect of Cat B licence holders who are limited to 100% of the unladen weight.

 

[Lutz]

Welcome home Lutz,

I do agree with your last post, however there is a legal aspect in respect of Cat B licence holders who are limited to 100% of the unladen weight.

Thanks John.
It was exactly in connection with the Category B licence restrictions that I contacted the DfT, pointing out that 'unladen weight', to which the licence requirements refer, is not documented anywhere and so the powers-that-be would have difficulty in determining whether anyone was actually legal or not. Their reply was that they consider the V5c certificate figure, i.e. Mass in Service, to be decisive even though the definition of unladen weight is different to that of MIRO or Mass in Service, but they would leave final judgment for the courts to decide. A fat lot of good that does in clarifying the situation! Someone is going to have to be considered to have done something wrong before we know what is right.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

"But at least I don't hide behind micro print like some folks"

Obviously that remark was aimed at me, you post a lot of good information on here Steve, but in my opinion you also contradict yourself a lot as well. I would also be obliged if you could explain to me how you hide behind "micro print" the only thing I would admit to being guilty of is having a very good memory, especially when it involves individuals who are quick to pick up on other road users bad driving habits, but conveniently forgetting about there own, having previously posted on these forums about there own law breaking antics, and then excusing themselves, as they are trained to a higher level than the average motorist.

Allan.

 

[Steve L]

If the cap fit's Alan, then wear it with pride. At least with me I will say what I mean and stand by it. Also by the same token I do accept sensibly written comments. If your memory's so good then you'll know thta I don't always see eye to eye with the prof, but we don't waste time sniping.
Thats all I have to say on the subject.

 

[ProfAlGoogle]

Hi Steve, I wasn't aware of any sniping on my behalf, just offering a different point of view to yours, only to be greeted with "hiding behind micro print" and now an unexplained " if the cap fit wear it with pride" theres no need to be offensive, you really should read your foot note :

free speech is the heart of good debate.....................................................................Cake and eat it springs to mind!

Allan.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Welcome home Lutz,

I do agree with your last post, however there is a legal aspect in respect of Cat B licence holders who are limited to 100% of the unladen weight.

Thanks John.
It was exactly in connection with the Category B licence restrictions that I contacted the DfT, pointing out that 'unladen weight', to which the licence requirements refer, is not documented anywhere and so the powers-that-be would have difficulty in determining whether anyone was actually legal or not. Their reply was that they consider the V5c certificate figure, i.e. Mass in Service, to be decisive even though the definition of unladen weight is different to that of MIRO or Mass in Service, but they would leave final judgment for the courts to decide. A fat lot of good that does in clarifying the situation! Someone is going to have to be considered to have done something wrong before we know what is right.

Hi to you all out there.Yes the V5c document would now appear to rule!!. What happens if the V5c does not contain the detailed information that they say is on the V5c ?.
I have three V5c Documents,one is actually an original that was thought to be lost in the post a replacement was sent. Two are Blue,one is Red/Pink. none of them give a Mass in Service figure & none of them give a Revenue Weight. Any one of the vehicles could be bought by a Newbie/Novice Caravanner and put to use towing a caravan. Only for the fact that I have VOSA spec' certification for both vehicles I would be relying on figures from the Towsafe Data Base, HO HO.
Recently I had occasion to contact the DtF in relation to published details on their web site,I queried several aspects and raised seven points, of these seven points five were direct questions. The reply did not address any of my points/questions of issue. Indeed the reply was a typical politician style responce. I replied with a counter responce and the reply to that gave me the impression that I had engaged with an Apprentice Office Prevaracation Officer (most Civil Servants are now deemed as Officers). After a further four return E'mails I gave up, NO not because I had given up,it was to allow me more time to research a related item that was an about turn by the DtF.
The DtF has recentley issued a statement that in itself would appear to make murky waters murkier for all,but especially for total Newbies/Novice/Beginners to caravanning.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there. If there is anyone in doubt about the seriousness of the reality behind my Tongue in Cheek post that I posted way back at the beginning of what you are now reading;go to the post by the Newbie in July of last year:- Overturned Caravan.
Look also at the cases of insecure tow-bar/tow-balls,there is one currently referred to in the post that refers to a recent MoT failure that Tow-bars are now a part of it.
I REST MY CASE.

 

[Lutz]

An accident caused by a towbar that has come adrift is going to cause as much damage if the outfit had an 80% weight ratio as it would at 100% and the difference in weight ratio is not going to increase the risk. It's the vibration in service that causes failure and not so much the forces involved.