Advice Please !

[Tina3]

I recently sold my caravan..it was advertised at a price with ALL equipment..or a price for just the caravan...when the purchasers came to view the caravan I was informed the buyers "had there own equipment " and therefore paid (less) than the advertised caravan only price.
I did however leave an expensive winterhoff stabiliser on.....and the battery.. out of goodwill .all which where MY expense when I bought the caravan...they came ...paid....took the van away.........
I am now getting phone calls ......to say I have not given them the water pump(cristal) (which was an EXTRA)bought my me and that this is a legal requiremement and I am obliged to give it to them ...I am quite confident this is not the case.....as it is external equipment..readily purchased anywhere.......and as far as I am concerned did NOT come with the van when I bought it so why should it when they.They paid alot less than the price I advertised for a lovely van As I needed a quick sale and I feel they are being a bit cheeky...as I have had offers for all my equipment as a job lot...
I am not being awkward....but instead of politely enquiring I am getting abrubt messages on my phone pretty much accusing me of "diddling " them !! !!! sold as seen ?????? does that still stand...or IS there a legal requirment to provide a pump ??? of which I doubt
thanks for any replies !!!
Tina xxxxxxxxx

 

[emmerson]

Tina, tell them, politely or otherwise, to go away!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Tina,

I assume from your posting that you have nothing to do with the caravan trade, and thus this was a private sale.

If you advertised the caravan sold as seen, then it is up to the purchaser to ask all the questions they want before the sale, and they must satisfy them selves of the adequacy of the caravan before handing over the money which is the transfer of title.

You had a duty to honestly answer any questions the prospective purchaser asked before the sale took place, and again from your description I sense you fulfilled those obligations.

It is a key point that in a private sale as soon as the sale has been made it is assumed that the purchaser has asked all the questions they need and are fully satisfied the product is what they want in the condition at the point of sale. Specifically if the caravan was “Sold as Seen” then the purchaser has no come back on the seller after the sale, unless the seller did not have title (own) to the caravan or that some other type of fraud was being perpetrated.

With specific regard to the pump, I assume the issue is about an outboard submersible type. Because if it had been an inboard fixed type – there would have been no argument would there?

Consider that when a caravan is new it would be sold with a pump so it might be assumed to be part of the caravan. If you showed the caravan with the pump, and no other mention was made about it, then the buyer could legitimately assume the pump was part of the sale. This does not however excuse obnoxious communications.

However if you showed the caravan without the pump or specifically indicated it was not part of the sale (before the sale took place) then the buyer has no right to it.

Is it worth that much? Do you really want or need an old pump?

How about passing the pump over to smooth the troubled waters.

 

[DeliDave_]

I'm no lawyer but unless you stated in the ad or verbally that there was a pump then its buyer beware and down to them to check before they bought it.It sounds like they did very well out of the deal and have saved enough to buy their own pump

 

[Tina3]

Hi
Thanks for your swift replies......the caravan was advertised with NO equipment ..this was re-iterated whilst they were vieving...I said I would leave the stabiliser and battery on...they asked if they could have waste pipe as theres wasnt long enough ...I gave them that....the water pump is an outside cristal unit....retail about £50 the issue of which was never brought up ...as they said they had there own waste/.water bottles etc...................
now if it had been mentioned......to keep peace...yes they could gladly have had it thrown in as I am not an awkard person....but it wasnt mentioned and the took the caravan away !.
however I am in training at mo for job....leaving at 0730 getting in at 6pm 5 days a week and have small children....to messages on my phone that " I am legally obliged to give it to them as it is a legal requirement of sale " .....which as I hope you would understand as I have took a low price already...given them extra's ....work like a horse and they are "still " phoning" ...is KINDA GETTING MY BACK UP !!! ha ha x ...
anyway the point was ...on a private sale...advertised with NO equipment...is it a legal obligation to give them an external waterpump (that I bought seperately ) !! xx
Thanks Guys x

 

[Gagakev]

Did you give them a receipt with "sold as seen" on it, which if you did tell them to go buy there own!!!
And as they keep leaving you messages the best time to phone them would be 03.30 hours

 

[Chris_Hyde_Cheshire.]

Tell them that you are willing to give them the pump if they return ALL the air from the tyres as you forgot it was in them and should of taken it out !!!

 

[Dustydog]

Tell them they renaging on the original deal. You categorically gave two prices. They opted for the "no equipment" deal.
If they persist in being bloody minded tell them they will have to pay for the stabiliser and the battery as it is they who are now trying to retrospectively change the deal and the spirit it was agreed in. So if they think they are right about the pump give it to them but only when they return the stabiliser and battery to you.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Tina

Perhaps my previous reply was not entirely helpful.

As you are adamant that you told your buyer the sale was with “no equipment”, then you are probably within your rights to hold onto the pump. However your moral position is weakened slightly by the items of equipment you did leave in the caravan, neither of which are classed as essential.

In private transactions there is basic tenant of law that expects the prospective purchaser to be certain of what they are buying before they complete the transaction. They have no legal right to challenge it after wards. This is the basis of Caveat Emptor – or Buyer Beware.

Unless you agreed to make the transaction conditional such as offering any sort of guarantee or agreeing to supply some other parts or service later, then as far as English law is concerned, as soon as goods and all the money have changed hands the deal is completed and there should be no secondary liabilities or actions.

Basically the buyer agreed to buy your caravan and they should have taken the time to check the caravan and questioned the missing pump before they handed over their money and took the caravan away. Once the point of sale has passed they have no legal call on you.

By all means tell your buyer about Caveat Emptor etc but if they persist in harassing you over this speak to your solicitor for further advice.

Being wise after the event, and especially with high value items it is always worth exchanging duplicate signed notes which clearly state; what was sold, its condition, who sold it, who bought it and the price paid, signed by both parties, including any conditional statements such a Sold as Seen etc.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi John
Another interesting issue arises here. .
Tina was very specific about "no equipment".
I think in Law that "no equipment" must be a caravan as originally delivered from the factory. Ironically all the new caravans I have purchased always came with a water pump either external or internal. The last two came with the Al-Ko stabiliser but no battery.
I'm not sure if Tina's stabiliser was an OME or added by her at a later date?

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Batteries aren't sold with caravans and these can cost up to £100. Tell him you want the battery and then he can have the pump.

 

[LMH]

He's messing with a scouser!

Lisa xxx

 

[Parksy]

I am now getting phone calls ......to say I have not given them the water pump(cristal) (which was an EXTRA)bought my me and that this is a legal requiremement and I am obliged to give it to them ...I am quite confident this is not the case.....as it is external equipment..readily purchased anywhere.......and as far as I am concerned did NOT come with the van when I bought it so why should it when they.They paid alot less than the price I advertised for a lovely van As I needed a quick sale and I feel they are being a bit cheeky...as I have had offers for all my equipment as a job lot...
I am not being awkward....but instead of politely enquiring I am getting abrubt messages on my phone pretty much accusing me of "diddling " them !! !!! sold as seen ?????? does that still stand...or IS there a legal requirment to provide a pump ??? of which I doubt
thanks for any replies !!!
Tina xxxxxxxxx

It looks very much to me as though the people who bought your caravan see you as vulnerable or as some sort of soft touch.
They have paid for the caravan and taken it away from your premises so in law they have agreed to buy the caravan as it was when they collected it. It was up to them to ask for any additional equipment that they felt that they were owed when they collected the caravan, that was when the sale was agreed and completed. Unless the pump was in the caravan when it was bought and paid for there is no legal requirement for you to provide the pump, they are making this up as they go along!
Don't enter into any discussion or negotiation with them, the only way that the terms of this sale can now be altered is by court order so tell them to go to court where they will lose.
If these people continue to leave telephone messages, abrupt or otherwise, tell them that unless they desist immediately you will inform the police because they are harassing you.

 

[Surfer]

Pumps come standard with caravan on purchase from any dealer. If I was not supplied witha pump I would walk away. Water & waste containers, battery ect are all extras. I think the buyer is correct here asking for the pump to be supplied as they rightly assumed that the pump was part of the caravan. Give him the pump and stop quibbbling about it as pumps are NOT reagrded as addiotnal equipment. Why don't you ask some dealers if they sell caravans without a water pump

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Dusty,

I alluded to that point in my first answer, but that is irrelevant if the sale was made as Sold as Seen - which means exactly what it says, faults, missing bits and all.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Uvongo,

Sadly as happens quite often with threads like this we do not have all the facts. with the reports we have available there is a diversity in the 'correct' line of action between the legal rights and the moral action.

What is not in doubt, though is the use of 'Sold as Seen' in a private sale, it is clear cut and if it was used then there is no doubt that the buyer has no legal right to expect the seller to supply any further goods after the sale was completed.

If "sold as seen" was not used, then the matter is not so clear cut, other details such as exact wording, and was the caravan demonstrated with or without the pump becomes more important.

Like you I do wonder if the hassle is worth the value of the pump, but that is a matter for the OP to decide.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi John
The "Sold as Seen" point remains unanswered by Tina so far. Her OP seems fairly clear but I suspect something that we don't know has got lost in the translation.
The real valid point for others on here too is to always take a signed form of receipt, preferably signed by both parties acknowledging the sale is " sold as seen" as you quite rightly say

 

[parker1158]

Without getting into a convoluted long answer and playing devil’s advocate I would have expected the pump to come with the van. When we traded our old van last year we were told by the dealer that when we came to swop the vans to bring our van with equipment that the new van will have, this basically came down to spare wheel and pump.

 

[Dustydog]

Without getting into a convoluted long answer and playing devil’s advocate I would have expected the pump to come with the van. When we traded our old van last year we were told by the dealer that when we came to swop the vans to bring our van with equipment that the new van will have, this basically came down to spare wheel and pump.

Absolutely Sir TB . That's how I see it.

 

[forestgump]

i was told to trade in my old van with pump and ehu not battery and i got new ones with new van from dealer i would expect that if it is a part off the gear to use the van as water is i would expect a pump but you cuold argue the fact ? But you let him have the other stuff so it was not sold for the no extras price i would give him the pump as a shut up but i would fill it with supper glue first.

 

[Tina3]

Hi dustydog thanks for your help..I bought the caravan second hand from a dealer...they gave me NOTHING with it...I bought stabiliser...battery hook-up AND pump from them while i was there as a seperate-add on price !!
??? does that make any difference
thanks
Tina x

 

[Tina3]

Hey gorgeous ..how the devil are you...long time no see !! ha ha ha
will catch you soon and pass email and moby !! xxxxx

 

[Tina3]

Hi..thanks for your reply....
I ma not being awkward.......I did buy the van second hand myself and got NOTHING with it not even water pump.........if they had left it a week...then rang...maybe I would have organised for them to get it.
but I am in a difficult traing course at work...leaving my family very early and getting home very late.....to a bobbardment of messages .....quite avrubt ones at that...basically taming the mick....thay HAVE had a £100 battery and A £200 winterhoff stabiliser thrown in...for LESS than the advertised NO EQUIPMENT price................whos to say the then wont come back demanding the hook up etc etc....its the abrubt tone of her voice and nature that is winding me up !!!!
But thanks anyway
Lisa will tell you I AM a nice reasonable person......usually !!! xx

 

[LMH]

Tina, I've bought two used vans from dealers in the past and got no extras (water pump, battery etc, etc).

The way I see it is you can:

1. Ignore their calls, simply delete messages as soon as you play back and hear their voice.
2. Give them the damn pump to shut them up.
3. Borrow my not so little gaylord and one of my gypsy friends and pay the annoying purchasers a visit with the pump which could be inserted somewhere where the sun don't shine.

Lisa x

 

[Tina3]

ha ha its so lovely to speak to you again....ahhh little gaylord....how is he ?????
Lol.....if she had left a lovely message I would of phoned her back and arranged her to have it...but from the first message...it was " wheres the pump ""? really abrupt....no appreciation of me leaving the battery and stabiliser in !!!!
she looked a right anal retentive one tho so am expecting if I dont give it her this wont be the last I hear.but hey you know me I like a fight !!!! ha haxxxxx