Another MAM/towing limits question...GTW Vs MAM

[goofygol]

Hi, I did search the forum to see if this had already been answered, but my particular variant of this query hasn't! I've just joined because after scouring about 10 different sources + gov website, it's still not clear to me what is legal, so i thought i'd ask the experts on here.
I passed my test after 1997, and i'm aware that I should have B+E automatically added to my licence. What isn't clear to me at all is whether the 3500kg limit is Just the MAM Of the trailer, or the Trailer + Car combined MAM, or in other words, the Gross train weight.

I'm not towing a caravan...it's a car trailer. The trailer has an MAM of 2000kg, according to the chassis VIN plate.
On my car's VIN sticker, it's MAM is 2075kg, and the number underneath is 3850kg, which i assume is the gross train weight. I know my car has a towing capacity of 1700kg, this is in the manual + on the V5. The additional 75kg must be the towball downweight which is added on to give 1775kg (3850 - 2075).

Therefore, my total MAM of car and trailer is 2000 + 2075 = 4075kg. Either:
- it's illegal, because the limit is 3500kg combined, or
- it's illegal, because i'm above my car's stated gross train weight, 4075kg VS 3850kg.
- i'm legal, because my actual weight of trailer+load combined is well short of it's 2000kg MAM (more like 1300kg), and therefore 1300+2075 = 3375kg which is < 3850kg.
- i'm legal, because my actual weight of trailer+load is ~1300kg, and my actual car +load will be also no where near it's 2075kg limit, and more like 1800kg, and therefore 1800 + 1300 = 3100kg, which again is well short of the 3850kg GTW.

or i'm still wrong somewhere?!
i need to clarify all this because i want to buy a cheap 2nd car purely for towing and so the choice may depend on how the legislation applies...

 

[RogerL]

The 3500 kg limit applies to the trailer - but subject to it's own maximum weight (2000 kg in your case) AND subject to the car's maximum towing weight (1775 kg in your case)

HOWEVER if the trailer isn't fully loaded it may still come within the 1775 kg and be legal

In addition if the car isn't fully loaded then then as long as the sum of the actual laden weights don't exceed 3850 kg then that would be legal too.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Unfortunately you have chosen a topic which is rather complicated. I hope the following may be helpfull.

You have to approach this topic from two directions. the first is as a driver which is defined by your licence entitlements - which tells you what you are allowed to drive. Then secondly from the tow vehicles perspective which determines what the vehicle is legally allowed to tow.

From your licences perspective, it tells you the maximum masses (=maximum Weights) of tow vehicle and trailer you are entitled to drive. These are absolute limits with no upward tolerances,

In practice with a post 1997 licence (it is different for licences issued before 1997) you can drive any normal domestic car, provided its Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM = GVM) does not exceed 3500kg (or 4250kg where an unbraked trailer not exceeding 750kg is used) . That encompasses all normal domestic cars.

With the now assumed BE licence you are also allowed to drive a a towed outfit of combined MAM not exceeding 7000kg . There is no tolerance on the upper commuted figure even a 1Kg over 7000 top limit and it is clearly illegal . The values used are vehicle specific and derived from the VIN plate data on the vehicles, so its a paper exercise to establish if you are complaint or not. If you are non compliant the offence is driving without a licence.

From the tow vehicles perspective, you are legally obliged to conform to the mass limits defined on the vehicles data plates. The Tow vehicles VIN plate carries four load limits,

1. The solo vehicles MAM in kg (Gross Vehicle Mass)
2. The tow vehicles and trailers combined MAM in Kg (Gross Train Mass)
3. The tow vehicles front axle maximum load limit
4. The tow vehicles rear axle maximum load limit

Vehicles with a tow bar fitted will also have another data plate on the towbar which defines the maximum permitted static vertical trailer nose load, ("S" value) and the maximum mass of the trailer that can be towed. Strictly the towed mass is only the load on the trailers road wheels. it ignores the vertical load of on the coupling. The towed load is not the MAM (or MTPLM) of the trailer.

Modern trailers should also have their own VIN plates near the front of the trailer which define the Trailers MAM (Also known as MTPLM) This is the maximum permitted mass/weight of the entire uncoupled trailer - including the nose load at the coupling couplings "S" value

It will also list the maximum permitted load each of the road axles

It should also also list the maximum "S" value which is the static vertical vertical nose load you may trim the trailer to create.

At no time solo or coupled should any of these limits be exceeded. For a specific examples. The tow vehicles combined maximum axle limits may exceed the vehicles stated MAM - this means you cannot load both axles to their maximum value at the same time, one or both must be reduced to bring the whole vehicle mass in line with the MAM limit. Also you may a difference in the tow vehicle and the trailers "S" values. You must always consider the lowest "S" value to be the working limit.

Most tow vehicles specify a maximum towed mass it can successfully pull, legally the towed mass is only the load supported by the trailers road wheels - the nose load arising at the coupling is supported by the towbar and thus is carried by the tow vehicle, and must be accounted as part of the load in the tow vehicle. As this value varies depending on how the trailer is loaded, it cannot be assumed to have a known value unless it is specifically measured.

The UK and UE regulations assume every trailer will be loaded to produce a minimum nose load value of 25Kg or 4% of its load mass. and for simplicity UK caravan organisations recommend aiming for between 5 and 7% of the trailers MTPLM provided that does not exceed the tow vehicles tow bar "S" value.

Just being legally and technically compliant is no guarantee of safety. it requires sensible attention to the maintenance of all vehicles, and good driving habits.

I recommend checking you have a good match of tow vehicle and trailer that offers reasonable margins of capacity. It is sensible to choose a tow vehicle and trailer where the trailers MTPLM does not exceed the tow vehicles stated maximum towed weight limit

 

[goofygol]

so from what you've both said, basically, it sounds like the Actual values are what matters, not theoretical. My worry was, PC plod would stop me, add up the MAM of my car and trailer together, and go "this is illegal because your total MAM is greater than your car's GTW limit". (4075kg VS 3850kg)

In reality, i'm operating well under the MAM limits of both car and trailer individually, and when added together give a combined weight of around 3100kg which is well below the car's 3850kg limit.
Therefore it's all good - my 4th option in the original post is the right one.
phew.

it's a shame that gov.uk doesn't actually explain it properly at all, other than to say in the drivers licences section that B+E = 3500 + 3500.
There's no detail anywhere on the section on towing and limits about how the legislation is applied when it comes to vehicle limits. Presumably this is embedded somewhere else and that there's some sentences around complying with the car's specified gross train weight/towing capacity, which to be fair, is listed on the V5 document.

 

[Woodentop]

Plod won't stop you it is the DVSA.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Plod won't stop you it is the DVSA.

The police have the powers to stop a driver if they suspect an offence has been committed. The DVSA orchestrate road side inspections, but I think they have to use a police officer to stop and divert traffic to the inspection site.

 

[Lutz]

You must differentiate between driving licence entitlement requirements and legal technical limits.
For driving licence purposes it's plated limits that count, but actual weights determine whether one is within the technical limits. Note that the MAM of the towing vehicle includes the noseweight of the trailer.

 

[ProfJohnL]

so from what you've both said, basically, it sounds like the Actual values are what matters, not theoretical. My worry was, PC plod would stop me, add up the MAM of my car and trailer together, and go "this is illegal because your total MAM is greater than your car's GTW limit". (4075kg VS 3850kg)

In reality, i'm operating well under the MAM limits of both car and trailer individually, and when added together give a combined weight of around 3100kg which is well below the car's 3850kg limit.
Therefore it's all good - my 4th option in the original post is the right one.
phew.

it's a shame that gov.uk doesn't actually explain it properly at all, other than to say in the drivers licences section that B+E = 3500 + 3500.
There's no detail anywhere on the section on towing and limits about how the legislation is applied when it comes to vehicle limits. Presumably this is embedded somewhere else and that there's some sentences around complying with the car's specified gross train weight/towing capacity, which to be fair, is listed on the V5 document.

In essence that is correct, The Gov' website is often assumed to the "Law" unfortunately it's not. The Acts of Parliament and adopted regulations are the law and they are far more detailed than the precis given in the website.

There have been some past mistakes in the website, one of which was the mix up of a measured weight and a weight limit. if had been followed by drivers it would have made their outfits illegal. Whether a prosecution could have been avoided by quoting the web sites description was as far as I know never tested, but I brought the error to the attention of the Webmaster and the page was amended. But without going through every page with a fine tooth comb I cannot say the web site is 100% accurate on such matters.

For what its worth, the actual regulations do follow sound engineering and scientific principles, but historically there have been many different approaches often by individual companies, so there are many instances where the same criteria can have different names or acronyms but also the same acronyms may appear in different regimes with different definitions. This is why it can be so confusing, especially for novices in the subject.

 

[tanis8472]

I've just found this interesting bit of info which I'm a bit confused about. The 7m Maximum length. Now, technically a caravan is a trailer isn't it?

Category B+E (BE)​

'Be aware that further changes to the towing entitlements for category B+E came in to force on December 16th 2021'

Category B+E is a vehicle up to 3500kgs MAM with up to 8 passenger seats combined with a heavy trailer.

For those drivers who passed their category B+E Practical Test on or after 19th January 2013 there is an upper trailer weight limit of 3500kgs MAM. For those drivers who passed their B+E Practical Test prior to this date there is no defined trailer weight under category B+E except that which is governed by the towing capacity of the towing vehicle. For all category B+E licence-holders there is a maximum trailer length of 7.0 metres and a maximum trailer width of 2.55 metres.

Drivers who passed their car test before 1 January 1997 normally will also have category B+E entitlement.

Drivers who passed their car test after 1 January 1997would normally have had PROVISIONAL category B+E entitlement. To gain full B+E entitlement they had to pass a Category B+E Practical Driving Test. Supervising drivers accompanying provisional B+E licence holders must have held a full B+E licence for at least 3 years.

An additional legislative change came in on 16th December 2021 which means that drivers with B (Car) entitlement will automatically have B+E (Car & Trailer) entitlement without the need to take a B+E test. This allows drivers to tow a trailer up to 3,500kg Maximum Authorised Mass (MAM). These changes will not be immediately reflected on a current driving licence, or on any of DVLA's online services. There is no need to contact DVLA regarding this change, the driver's photocard driving licence will be updated the next time they transact with DVLA.

 

[otherclive]

What is the source reference to your post. Normally I thought a caravans length for regulation is the body lengthy not shipping length. IE one includes A frame the other does not.

 

[Lutz]

What is the source reference to your post. Normally I thought a caravans length for regulation is the body lengthy not shipping length. IE one includes A frame the other does not.

Yes, you are right. It is the body length of the caravan that counts, not the overall length. By the way, the requirement has nothing to do with driving licence entitlement. It is a UK Construction and Use regulation.
When travelling abroad, the BE category must be entered on the driving licence. It is not sufficient to claim that BE is automatic in the UK now, even though it hasn’t yet been added to an existing licence.

 

[tanis8472]

Driving Licence Information

www.drivex.co.uk

Towing with a car

Towing trailers, caravans and horseboxes with a car, including the weight and size limits, and what licence you need to have

www.gov.uk

Yes without a frame

 

[ProfJohnL]

I've just found this interesting bit of info which I'm a bit confused about. The 7m Maximum length. Now, technically a caravan is a trailer isn't it?

A touring caravan is indeed a trailer, and as others have pointed out the length measurement in the context of towing regulations excludes the towing A frame. However be aware that commercial organisations such as ferries do have to account for th e length of the whole caravan including the A frame when allocating space on ferries or channel tunnel trains.

The remainder of your post concerning the changes to the way licence entitlements in the UK are now 3 year's old, and have bee previously discussed extensively on the forum, and especially how they might impact caravanners.

Whilst the DVLA do not require you to physically get your licence renewed to reflect the changes, there may be a problem if you were to attempt towing abroad, as other countries may require you to have a human readable licence that accurately reflects your UK entitlement's, as they cannot automatically interrogate the UK DVLA records. I advise if you are anticipating towing abroad, get your licence renewed to show all your legal entitlements.

 

[Lutz]

Whilst the DVLA do not require you to physically get your licence renewed to reflect the changes, there may be a problem if you were to attempt towing abroad, as other countries may require you to have a human readable licence that accurately reflects your UK entitlement's, as they cannot automatically interrogate the UK DVLA records. I advise if you are anticipating towing abroad, get your licence renewed to show all your legal entitlements.

It's not up to the foreign authorities to check whether the driver has an appropriate driving licence. It's the duty of the driver to prove that he or she is covered.

 

[Mr Plodd]

Going back a few posts I can categorically state that a Police Officer I uniform can indeed stop any vehicle on a road and require it to be taken to a weighbridge to ascertain if any weight offences have been committed AND commence proceedings/issue a fixed penalty notice if appropriate AND either require the weights be corrected to be legal before the vehicle continues it's journey OR issue a prohibition notice to prevent it use.
I have done exactly the above on numerous occasions.

DVSA do usually work in conjunction with the police when it comes to organised weight check points. It saves a lot of argument if a police officer is present and is the one directing the vehicle to the weighbridge.

P.s. Lutz is spot on, it's up to tge driver to show they have a valid licence for whatever class of vehicle they are driving. If you have a licence that currently shows just Category B, and plan on towing abroad it is vital to get your licence updated to show B+E or you could find yourself I all sorts of grief if stopped whilst abroad whilst towing.