Approved Workshop approval.

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi to you all out there.
A subject that has somewhat puzzled me for some time and who better to ask but "The Experts".
No - this is not some cynical or even sarcastic jab at any of the membership,it is a simple enough question.
I will not put any pre-conceived notions or suggestions out there,I am simply asking because I am confused as to the legitimacy of the 'recognition of and by whom.

 

[Dustydog]

http://www.approvedworkshops.co.uk/approved-touring-caravan-motorhome-servicing
And that's the answer. A joint venture between the National Caravan Council , The Camping and Caravan Club and The Caravan Club.

 

[RogerL]

A joint venture between the National Caravan Council , The Camping and Caravan Club and The Caravan Club.

Which is an anomaly in itself - since both the CC and C&CC are members of the NCC - I guess that means they get two votes each?

 

[Dustydog]

A joint venture between the National Caravan Council , The Camping and Caravan Club and The Caravan Club.

Which is an anomaly in itself - since both the CC and C&CC are members of the NCC - I guess that means they get two votes each?

Only when acting for Scottish Members

 

[RogerL]

A joint venture between the National Caravan Council , The Camping and Caravan Club and The Caravan Club.

Which is an anomaly in itself - since both the CC and C&CC are members of the NCC - I guess that means they get two votes each?

Only when acting for Scottish Members

That's over my head.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

http://www.approvedworkshops.co.uk/approved-touring-caravan-motorhome-servicing

And that's the answer. A joint venture between the National Caravan Council , The Camping and Caravan Club and The Caravan Club.

Hi Dustydog. What the hell has The National Caravan Council, The Camping & Caravanning Club and The Caravan Club got to do with knowing how to repair and service caravans to a/the required standards.
I would have thought that the caravan manufacturers - each and every one of them would have had 'First Say' in the matter. After-all,car manufacturers put their 'Approved Workshops' through rigorous training and continual retraining courses in order that their original standards of build and quality are maintained at the highest possible level.
That is as good and twisted as the Police conducting enquiries about their own and we all know where that lead to - don't we just?

 

[paws]

Further information on the NCC available from here:
http://www.thencc.org.uk/

 

[RogerL]

The National Caravan Council (NCC) is simply the trade body for the UK caravan industry - including manufacturers, dealers and sites.

Caravanners aren't represented on the NCC as the CC and C&CC are there to represent their interests as site operators, not as members clubs.

 

[Raywood]

The approved workshop scheme is the best we have at the moment and the manufacturers are represented through it but it should have independent members in the board overseeing it as otherwise it is open to the critcism shown here. Not sure how dealers who are not members can be agents of manufacturers who are though.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello TR

The approved Workshop Scheme has no legal legitimacy - in other words there is no legal requirement for workshops to be members of the scheme.

The AWS is simply a trade scheme administered by the NCC that claims to monitor the performance of its approved members. It has no legal teeth to bring transgressors to book. And it has no mandate to take up customers complaints and act on their behalf.

All that being said, there are some other reasons why the AWS has some value.

AWS business have to subscribe to the scheme. They will do this because having the approval will increase the number of customers they may get for service and repair works.

It is a requirement by most manufacturers for their caravans to have periodic inspections and services to keep the manufactures guarantee active. In recognition of the mobility of caravans, manufactures have in general agreed to allow services by AWS members to meet their guarantee requirement. This simplifies the process for many owners who may live a considerable distance from their nearest dealer for their make of van.

This doesn't change the customer or sellers relationship under SoGA.

In theory at least, members of the AWS should operate service operations consistently, and have acceptable (to the trade) protocols for dealing with customers.

The NCC has a number of technical documents available to members concerning construction and safety of caravans, these are basis of the standards the AWS and the Caravan Industry Training Organisatio (CITO) work to.

I understand the AWS employ a contracted organisation to carry out audits of scheme members on its behalf.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi TR
I can only echo the Prof's words of wisdom.
The AWS sponsored by the NCC and others is better than nothing.
Caravans are not cheap.
The caravan industry still uses piece work as a wages basis.
What we have with a number of reputable dealers and repairers is a "body" we can hopefully trust like the people you have just used.
Not perfect but there again it is an attempt to have a standard

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hello TR

The approved Workshop Scheme has no legal legitimacy - in other words there is no legal requirement for workshops to be members of the scheme.

The AWS is simply a trade scheme administered by the NCC that claims to monitor the performance of its approved members. It has no legal teeth to bring transgressors to book. And it has no mandate to take up customers complaints and act on their behalf.

All that being said, there are some other reasons why the AWS has some value.

AWS business have to subscribe to the scheme. They will do this because having the approval will increase the number of customers they may get for service and repair works.

It is a requirement by most manufacturers for their caravans to have periodic inspections and services to keep the manufactures guarantee active. In recognition of the mobility of caravans, manufactures have in general agreed to allow services by AWS members to meet their guarantee requirement. This simplifies the process for many owners who may live a considerable distance from their nearest dealer for their make of van.

This doesn't change the customer or sellers relationship under SoGA.

In theory at least, members of the AWS should operate service operations consistently, and have acceptable (to the trade) protocols for dealing with customers.

The NCC has a number of technical documents available to members concerning construction and safety of caravans, these are basis of the standards the AWS and the Caravan Industry Training Organisatio (CITO) work to.

I understand the AWS employ a contracted organisation to carry out audits of scheme members on its behalf.

Hi ProfJohnL. As I understand it the whole thing about AWS and who does what and plays which role is a little different from your explanation.
Firstly - The NCC is one in the same as was/is The Association of Master Upholsterers (AMU). They are 'Clubs' for people/businesses that want to pay for the privilege of recognition by subscription.
They allow people to 'Fly Their Flag' (Badge) in return for an annual fee and possibly even a Joining Fee.
The AMU then started running out of joining members because of the watered down standards in the industry,those standards were essentially around traditional upholstery methods and principles.
They then started letting manufacturers and contract furnishers in and then any old 'rag-tacker' that would cough-up the necessary.
Back to the AWS :- The manufacturer is the one that first and foremost decides who becomes 'An Approved Workshop' member. If the workshop in question is approved by the manufacturer and they meet certain required standards of work,equipment and so forth then they are also approved to carry out Warranty Work.
The approval is effectively a double edged sword because approval is gained for warranty works and service schedules and for service work only.
The NCC oversees the Approved Service Workshops and the manufacturer looks after the Approved Warranty Operatives workshops and conducts regular inspections to ascertain the standards are upheld.
I could be wrong here but all dealerships get automatic approval and the recognition to carry-out manufacturers warranty work.
The mobile workshops by definition can only carry out general/regular service work. It might now be extended to cover easily conducted manufacturers warranty work.
The main difference between dealer and approved service workshops is the availability of parts direct from the caravan manufacturer and the facility for goods on account.

 

[intransient1]

Most trade associations are set up in this way and have been since the guilds in the olden days.
The difference I have found using an approved workshop is the cost, the one I use is on average £100 cheaper than the dealers as they don't have to subsidise the showroom.
I have also found that the service is better and if a problem is found I get a call to let me know what it is and what it will cost.
I have also met many other owners who use the same one and they all speak highly of the service.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hi ProfJohnL. As I understand it the whole thing about AWS and who does what and plays which role is a little different from your explanation.
Firstly - The NCC is one in the same as was/is The Association of Master Upholsterers (AMU). They are 'Clubs' for people/businesses that want to pay for the privilege of recognition by subscription.
They allow people to 'Fly Their Flag' (Badge) in return for an annual fee and possibly even a Joining Fee.
The AMU then started running out of joining members because of the watered down standards in the industry,those standards were essentially around traditional upholstery methods and principles.
They then started letting manufacturers and contract furnishers in and then any old 'rag-tacker' that would cough-up the necessary.

I'm not sure whether you have noticed, but the forum relates to caravans not upholsterers so comparisons with the AMU cannot be confirmed. As you say the NCC is a 'club' for businesses related to the caravanning industry and there are levies made by the NCC on associated businesses to cover its running costs.

The AWS is a relatively recent device, and I believe has probably come about because of a number of instances where automotive customers challenged the manufacturers guarantee requiring service work to be carried out by the manufacturers own dealers. This was challenged under unfair contracts, and the courts found in favour of the customers essentially requiring the manufacturers to accept service stamps from non franchised workshops.

Where the AWS has been adopted the associated workshops should be capable of carrying out the basic service on any make of caravan to all manufacturers satisfaction.

Back to the AWS :- The manufacturer is the one that first and foremost decides who becomes 'An Approved Workshop' member. If the workshop in question is approved by the manufacturer and they meet certain required standards of work,equipment and so forth then they are also approved to carry out Warranty Work.
The approval is effectively a double edged sword because approval is gained for warranty works and service schedules and for service work only.

Contrary to your comment, any workshop that was originally part of a single manufacturers scheme is not automatically eligible to be an associate of the AWS. They have to be assessed for membership. However it is unlikely any competent service centre would be refused membership.

The NCC oversees the Approved Service Workshops and the manufacturer looks after the Approved Warranty Operatives workshops and conducts regular inspections to ascertain the standards are upheld.

You are correct regards the oversight of the AWS by the NCC for service work, and it has and always will be the case that individual manufacturers will make their own arrangements regards warranty repairs.

I could be wrong here but all dealerships get automatic approval and the recognition to carry-out manufacturers warranty work.
The mobile workshops by definition can only carry out general/regular service work. It might now be extended to cover easily conducted manufacturers warranty work.

When a manufacture appoints a dealership for their products, part of that contract will cover the dealers responsibilities regards the manufactures warranty obligations, But that is restricted to the manufacturer concerned, No manufacturer can tell a dealer to undertake warranty for another manufacture, unless there is a mutual agreement in place. It is generally the case that you need to seek prior approval by the manufacture to have warranty repairs carried out by a non franchised workshop, and this is still the case. The difference is the manufacture has confidence to allow works to be carried out by an AWS member, because the AWS is effectively a quality approval.

The main difference between dealer and approved service workshops is the availability of parts direct from the caravan manufacturer and the facility for goods on account. The main difference between dealer and approved service workshops is the availability of parts direct from the caravan manufacturer and the facility for goods on account.

There is nothing to stop a mobile workshop from being approved to carry out repairs or even warranty work, that is in the gift of the manufacturer if they so choose.

In these days of lean manufacturing, holding stock is always an expensive way of tying up capitol, so most keen businesses try to hold as little stock as possible. The key to such operations is easy fast access to spares from manufacturers, who either manufacture to order or may carry a small service stock.

As such both manufactures main dealers and non franchised workshops can obtain spares rapidly provided they have accounts with the manufacturers.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi ProfJohnL. Whilst there is a great deal of fact in your post ref :- #389268 there are also a few aspects that differ from my own findings. In complete honesty I have only this morning consulted with Customer Services at Elddis.
My findings are as follows :-
1) Warranty work can only be carried out by an Approved Dealer.

2) Approved dealers can/will and do carry out service work but are not obliged to work on Elddis caravans that were purchased from another dealer.

3) Only approved dealerships can purchase service items and replacement parts from Elddis.

4) Approved Service Workshops can only purchase service items from an Elddis Approved Dealership.

5) Elddis do not recognise mobile service agents/mechanics/technicians.

6) Some dealerships will have a mobile service provision and or recognise Approved Mobile Service Technicians but they are only approved through The NCC.

7) Mobile service agents/mechanics/technicians must seek their own approval/accreditation from The NCC.

8) I am told that Approved Workshops do not get approval to carry out warranty work however simple that may be and furthermore it is only Approved Dealerships that carry out warranty work.

My direct reference to The Association of Master Upholsterers was in a manner of showing a parallel 'outfit' or 'Boys and Girls trade club' - but in a totally different industry.
Like many similar 'outfits' they survive by subscription and the need by individuals and or companies/businesses to be seen to have been approved/accepted as being a good investment prospect for ones monies.

Of course I know that this is a caravan forum and indeed albeit not totally about caravans as we know them to-be.
The clue is in the name that takes a central position on the Home Page and indeed is the title of my Desktop Shortcut.

 

[ProfJohnL]

There are some very important differences between service work and warranty work, a point I have recognised in my replies. consequently all the points you make in your last post are not contrary to my summary.

You will see I did state that warranty arrangements (as different to service) are at the behest of the manufacturer. and as such it is in the gift of the manufacture to allow any workshop (mobile or static) to carry it out on their behalf. Just because Elddiss choose not to allow non franchised dealers does not preclude others from allowing it. It most certainly has happened in the past where mobile workshops have done warranty work - They may have been directly instructed by a manufacturer or subcontracting to a franchised dealer.

The other aspect of warranty work in caravans is that the vast majority of systems that need spares are OEM items, and as such the warranty work is on behalf of the appliance manufacturer rather than the caravan manufacture. (e.g Alko, Dometic, Truma. Whale etc)

For non warranty repairs, virtually any registered business will be able to obtain spares for warranty or service/repair from the manufacturer irf they have an account or from their main stockists.

 

[Damian]

Quote " 1) Warranty work can only be carried out by an Approved Dealer.

Not precisely true, depending on what item is being repaired. If it is any of the equipment such as fires, cookers etc then any item manufacturer approved engineer can do it. Body repairs are only by caravan manufacturers authorised repair centres.]

2) Approved dealers can/will and do carry out service work but are not obliged to work on Elddis caravans that were purchased from another dealer.

Not only applicable to Elddis,the same is true of ALL caravan makes.

3) Only approved dealerships can purchase service items and replacement parts from Elddis.

Wrong,,,,,,,, all recognised Engineers can purchase spares as long as they have an account.

4) Approved Service Workshops can only purchase service items from an Elddis Approved Dealership.

Wrong,,,,,,AWS engineers purchase items from wherever they need to from the relevant manufactures

5) Elddis do not recognise mobile service agents/mechanics/technicians.

Wrong,,,,,,,Elddis DO recognise mobile engineers who are AWS members

6) Some dealerships will have a mobile service provision and or recognise Approved Mobile Service Technicians but they are only approved through The NCC.

That is stating the obvious , but are also approved by the manufacturers who support the AWS scheme.

7) Mobile service agents/mechanics/technicians must seek their own approval/accreditation from The NCC.

Yes, mobile engineers must apply for inclusion in the AWS scheme, and jump through numerous hoops to prove their qualifications and ability to carry out work safely and correctly and it costs each engineer a LOT of money in mandatory courses and qualifications.]

8) I am told that Approved Workshops do not get approval to carry out warranty work however simple that may be and furthermore it is only Approved Dealerships that carry out warranty work.

Wrong,,,,,many mobile engineers carry out all kinds of warranty work, including body repairs if they have the ability to do them .

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Hi Damian. Further to your rather comprehensive post ref :- #389313 that appears to be having a dig at me and at what I had posted earlier. I did state quite clearly that I had consulted with Customer Services at Elddis.
Furthermore I made no reference to nor did I infer anything of any other manufacturer and their practices,preferences or hoops that they as individual others may impose or expect of those that wish to be associated with them.

 

[Damian]

Elddis are just one of the many Manufacturers who are supporters of the AWS, therefore they DO recognise mobile engineers and DO allow warranty work to be done by them.

Most warranty work however falls to the individual appliance manufacturer and their own approved engineers, who the majority of are AWS members, as most faults are with fitted items and not with the actual fabric of the van.

Some of what you have written is simply misleading and not the actual truth.

 

[TheTravellingRooster]

Elddis are just one of the many Manufacturers who are supporters of the AWS, therefore they DO recognise mobile engineers and DO allow warranty work to be done by them.

Most warranty work however falls to the individual appliance manufacturer and their own approved engineers, who the majority of are AWS members, as most faults are with fitted items and not with the actual fabric of the van.

Some of what you have written is simply misleading and not the actual truth.

Hi again Damian. I am simply saying what I was told this afternoon by a Customer Service Representative from Elddis. I did however get conflicting and contradictory information from a an ealier conversation with a female colleague of hers the day before. I rang back today for confirmation and clarification of the conversation the day before with her colleague.
Based upon what I was told and took notes of I believe that I have not been at-all misleading and all is the truth as per what I was told.
However - that said, I could ring again on another day and possibly get a totally different version to exactly the same questions that I asked.
I asked very specific questions today as I did the day before and got different responses,indeed I had to reiterate on several occasions the first time of asking.

 

[Damian]

And I am simply stating what ACTUALLY happens as an Approved Workshop for over 10 years and know exactly what does and does not happen and what is and what is not allowed.

Contrary to popular belief, Customer Service Reps do not always know the ins and outs of everything.
Just as an example, Renault Customer Service reps know absolutely NOTHING about the products they advise customers about, just what is on their "crib" sheet.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again TR,
I think you have now received chapter and verse about the status and function of the AWS.

Now having been given the ammunition, what do you intend to do with it?