Malc, all that and you still failed to close the window correctly!
We live in France and have a bolt hole and house in the UK and a winter home in Dubai UAE. We go to the UK at least 6 times a year.
Damian has asked for a halt and you are still carrying on with your nonsense, give it a rest please.
I ran a very successful Civil engineering and building partnership for many years, my wife and I also have our own property business that our daughter has taken over now. I've seen more than enough good and bad design of all sorts.
Caravan windows do the job they are intended for and that's it.
Peter
Thanks Sady. Humour restored. Madam needs no medals to assert her authority believe me! It's "our hero" that needs the medal as last man standing on this subject. Probably be awarded posthumously when vindicated.
Sorry again Malcolm, we have sixteen caravanners here in France and your posts have entertained us all.
Euro/Peter (my brother in-law) and my hubby are both engineers and this has become very very silly but you have helped a little to much wine go down. Sadie
euro
9 Jul 2009 00:18 AM Sorry again Malcolm, we have sixteen caravanners here in France and your posts have entertained us all.
Euro/Peter (my brother in-law) and my hubby are both engineers and this has become very very silly but you have helped a little to much wine go down. Sadie
euro/peter/sadie?
Sorry lost track of who's who here.
Which one of you is cris?
9 Jul 2009 00:18 AM Sorry again Malcolm, we have sixteen caravanners here in France and your posts have entertained us all.
Euro/Peter (my brother in-law) and my hubby are both engineers and this has become very very silly but you have helped a little to much wine go down. Sadie
euro/peter/sadie?
Sorry lost track of who's who here.
Which one of you is cris?
Damien
At the risk of alienating yourself and others I need to make a final post following fitment of the replacement stay to my window this morning.
It was quick and easy - two minutes at the outside.
The fully extended stay prevented rotation beyond about 5 - 10 deg below the horizontal, the same as the other 8 double stayed windows in the van. I confess I was surprised because I had anticipated the stay being a bit too long, thus allowing over rotation and decoupling in the wind as the primary cause.
So I shut the window and clamped the stay rod but to my surprise the window sprang gently open to about 30 deg and stayed there before I could close the 2 latches. Pushed it down, but up it came again. Very strange and I ensured I had assembled it correctly! The clamp worked ok but ,(and it's frustratingly difficult to describe in just words) due to the unusual geometry in positioning the stay there is a slight over-centre reaction at the very beginning of opening which means the clamped stay doesn't do anything for the first third of the travel but actually pushes the window gently outwards. Pretty naff design as you can't secure it in a given position within this range, but perhaps no big deal? But it certainly IS greatly different from the norm as I'm sure Dustydog and other s6 Wyoming owners can confirm.
I tried undoing all the latches on other windows but kept the stays clamped and they just wouldn't budge despite considerable force and probably explains why so few windows have come off to date as you all say. You'd have to be unlucky or very careless to fail to secure the more numerous latches as well as both stay clamps! So in this respect if no other, the configuration is significantly inferior to the vast majority of others in use over many years.
But the new window swings freely if unlatched, there being no secondary latch on the single stay itself (unlike all others). The clamped stay can't stop rotation until it is well out into the wind. It is then abruptly arrested; the side bracket and retaining pin is pulled sharply out of alignment putting a large bending force into the plastic rod at the pin hole - by far its weakest point. The rod is unable to bend over its length and absorb the stress because it is tightly clamped in the closed position very close to the end attachment (unlike all others).
The acrylic is unsupported at the outside edge (unlike all others) but much closer to the hinge, so the breaking force for a given window is much greater than the historic configuration. I estimate by a factor of 4 or 5 having measured it. A huge force for one tiny plastic rod end! And the complete assembly is extremely flimsy.
I can't say if a metal rod would be more likely to survive this trauma but it's got a better chance given the more progressive yielding of aluminium (once more- used everywhere else) against most rigid plastics which generally are brittle and don't take kindly to shock loads and point stresses.
But once it fails the window can rotate freely up with the stay assembly attached, and being unsupported on the leading edge (yet again unlike all others) will surely and quickly fly off. You may probably never see it!
Exactly the outcome I experienced with only the fixed part of the side frame bracket remaining.
My conclusion is, with every respect to those more experienced users and sales folk who say the design is well proven by historic statistics, that this window setup is so vastly different from the great majority that this information is completely invalid. You are not comparing the performance of like-for-like in any way shape or form and there are still an insignificant proportion of windows with this layout to have YET affected the figures.
It is significantly less secure in the first instance and much more likely to detach thereafter if (perhaps I should say when!) it does rotate. My prediction is that the loss rate for this configuration will be hugely greater and we shouldn't just wait and see.
The risks are obvious and my only advice to users is never to open this window at all. A second stay might improve matters somewhat but it's distinctly marginal.
One small correction to an earlier statement. You can't currently buy a LH version of the stay. See
http://www.miriad-products.com/catalogue page 83. But a LH version would use identical components with the clamp head reversed thro 180. I'm sure any big producer, and Bailey is the biggest, could have persuaded a supplier with whom it has enormous purchasing power to make this trivial change at no cost.
I trust this helps the massed ranks of my Francophile friends dispose of yet more of the wine lake, you lucky beggars!
At the risk of alienating yourself and others I need to make a final post following fitment of the replacement stay to my window this morning.
It was quick and easy - two minutes at the outside.
The fully extended stay prevented rotation beyond about 5 - 10 deg below the horizontal, the same as the other 8 double stayed windows in the van. I confess I was surprised because I had anticipated the stay being a bit too long, thus allowing over rotation and decoupling in the wind as the primary cause.
So I shut the window and clamped the stay rod but to my surprise the window sprang gently open to about 30 deg and stayed there before I could close the 2 latches. Pushed it down, but up it came again. Very strange and I ensured I had assembled it correctly! The clamp worked ok but ,(and it's frustratingly difficult to describe in just words) due to the unusual geometry in positioning the stay there is a slight over-centre reaction at the very beginning of opening which means the clamped stay doesn't do anything for the first third of the travel but actually pushes the window gently outwards. Pretty naff design as you can't secure it in a given position within this range, but perhaps no big deal? But it certainly IS greatly different from the norm as I'm sure Dustydog and other s6 Wyoming owners can confirm.
I tried undoing all the latches on other windows but kept the stays clamped and they just wouldn't budge despite considerable force and probably explains why so few windows have come off to date as you all say. You'd have to be unlucky or very careless to fail to secure the more numerous latches as well as both stay clamps! So in this respect if no other, the configuration is significantly inferior to the vast majority of others in use over many years.
But the new window swings freely if unlatched, there being no secondary latch on the single stay itself (unlike all others). The clamped stay can't stop rotation until it is well out into the wind. It is then abruptly arrested; the side bracket and retaining pin is pulled sharply out of alignment putting a large bending force into the plastic rod at the pin hole - by far its weakest point. The rod is unable to bend over its length and absorb the stress because it is tightly clamped in the closed position very close to the end attachment (unlike all others).
The acrylic is unsupported at the outside edge (unlike all others) but much closer to the hinge, so the breaking force for a given window is much greater than the historic configuration. I estimate by a factor of 4 or 5 having measured it. A huge force for one tiny plastic rod end! And the complete assembly is extremely flimsy.
I can't say if a metal rod would be more likely to survive this trauma but it's got a better chance given the more progressive yielding of aluminium (once more- used everywhere else) against most rigid plastics which generally are brittle and don't take kindly to shock loads and point stresses.
But once it fails the window can rotate freely up with the stay assembly attached, and being unsupported on the leading edge (yet again unlike all others) will surely and quickly fly off. You may probably never see it!
Exactly the outcome I experienced with only the fixed part of the side frame bracket remaining.
My conclusion is, with every respect to those more experienced users and sales folk who say the design is well proven by historic statistics, that this window setup is so vastly different from the great majority that this information is completely invalid. You are not comparing the performance of like-for-like in any way shape or form and there are still an insignificant proportion of windows with this layout to have YET affected the figures.
It is significantly less secure in the first instance and much more likely to detach thereafter if (perhaps I should say when!) it does rotate. My prediction is that the loss rate for this configuration will be hugely greater and we shouldn't just wait and see.
The risks are obvious and my only advice to users is never to open this window at all. A second stay might improve matters somewhat but it's distinctly marginal.
One small correction to an earlier statement. You can't currently buy a LH version of the stay. See
http://www.miriad-products.com/catalogue page 83. But a LH version would use identical components with the clamp head reversed thro 180. I'm sure any big producer, and Bailey is the biggest, could have persuaded a supplier with whom it has enormous purchasing power to make this trivial change at no cost.
I trust this helps the massed ranks of my Francophile friends dispose of yet more of the wine lake, you lucky beggars!
Malcolm, thanks for reply. My current van is a Sterling Eccles topaz 2009, and the previous model was an Abbey Vogue 495, hope this helps in your quest. Let me know if they are different it will be intersting
Kevin
Kevin
Damian
Moderator
Several posts have been removed as they were neither constructive or helpful, and in fact were confrontational.
This topic has now had enough forum space and before it degenerates any further it is now CLOSED.
This topic has now had enough forum space and before it degenerates any further it is now CLOSED.
Damien it's your site and you've every right to censor out destructive or other scurrilous contributions as you see fit. I'd guess I'm the likely target of much you refer to.
But to close this safety discussion for more rational debate seems a wholly unwarranted overreaction. Who cares if there are ten thousand comments. Isn't this site about an exchange of views from as many caravanners as possible which can only be to our common benefit?
I made my posts in good faith and want to hear from those who agree or think I'm off my rocker alike. And a bit of humour never killed anybody.
Please think again and don't stifle legitimate debate on such an important issue. What's a Forum for if not that?
But to close this safety discussion for more rational debate seems a wholly unwarranted overreaction. Who cares if there are ten thousand comments. Isn't this site about an exchange of views from as many caravanners as possible which can only be to our common benefit?
I made my posts in good faith and want to hear from those who agree or think I'm off my rocker alike. And a bit of humour never killed anybody.
Please think again and don't stifle legitimate debate on such an important issue. What's a Forum for if not that?
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