Battery/power issues

[donde_ayer]

Evening all, hoping for a bit of advise. Photos generally to show space I have. Caravan has been empty/out of use for 6 months. It's only a work home so it's an old 2002 (maybe) 2 berth. The external battery compartment is tiny (gives space for a battery max 33 x 18 x 23) I was looking at upgrading from the current 60ah. Add to this, that it charged for 12 hours yesterday and today wouldn't even give me a light on the 12v panel... I'm looking at what work would be involved (and is it safe) to add a battery to the under seat area inside. I'll find out after a 24h charge if it's a dead battery, me leaving something on, or a short somewhere.

If I have to replace it, I don't just want a like for like, but anything I can see over 100ah I don't think will fit in the external battery locker

 

[ProfJohnL]

Conventional Lead Acid (LA) batteries can splash acid, and release hydrogen based gasses which can produce a quite major explosion hazard unless they are managed correctly. It is therefore not a good idea to have an uncontained LA battery in a bed locker.

Outgassing will usually only occur if the battery is overcharged and as batteries wear out with usage and age.

The battery should be contained in an enclosure that creates a room weal with the caravans living space, but is ventilated with the outside to allow gasses to safely escape. Ideally the containment should also be resistant to sulfuric acid splashes.

It would also be worth reviewing the type of charger you caravan has, to ensure it is safe to use with the battery. If in doubt there are several very good multistage car battery chargers available which are specifically designed to adjust their charging currents and voltages to ensure the battery is well maintained and not over charged. These are safe to leave turned on 24/7 and ar sold as maintenance chargers for car enthusiasts.

 

[donde_ayer]

Conventional Lead Acid (LA) batteries can splash acid, and release hydrogen based gasses which can produce a quite major explosion hazard unless they are managed correctly. It is therefore not a good idea to have an uncontained LA battery in a bed locker.

Outgassing will usually only occur if the battery is overcharged and as batteries wear out with usage and age.

The battery should be contained in an enclosure that creates a room weal with the caravans living space, but is ventilated with the outside to allow gasses to safely escape. Ideally the containment should also be resistant to sulfuric acid splashes.

It would also be worth reviewing the type of charger you caravan has, to ensure it is safe to use with the battery. If in doubt there are several very good multistage car battery chargers available which are specifically designed to adjust their charging currents and voltages to ensure the battery is well maintained and not over charged. These are safe to leave turned on 24/7 and ar sold as maintenance chargers for car enthusiasts.

Thanks for your reply.

It's a 2002 Lunar Arriva GTS caravan, no idea what charger is fitter it's all built into the main unit in the photo. If I got a LIon battery (either under bed or in the battery drawer) would it be a straight swap? How do I know what type of charger I have?

 

[Buckman]

If the caravan is static and not moving, why can't it be connected up to the 240v supply?

 

[Mr Plodd]

Is the caravan permanently attached to the mains (EHU) when being used? If so, then providing the on board charger is working then you have no need for a higher capacity battery! In fact pretty much any old car battery, that can hold half a charge will suffice as basically its only needed to "smooth out" the 12v supply when the caravan is being used. A higher capacity battery would only really be needed if you have a motor mover or were off grid. I have assumed that this caravan in on your drive or similar and that is where it is being used so can be permanently hooked up to 230v
If you have allowed the battery to go utterly flat then it's probably, to quote Month Python, "An ex battery, it has ceased to be, it is dead mate"

 

[donde_ayer]

If the caravan is static and not moving, why can't it be connected up to the 240v supply?

The caravan hasn't been needed for a few months, as a rule it moves weekly, right now its at home and I plugged into mains to charge the battery ready for use, I don't leave it plugged in, I fear I've left it too long. The small bit of info missing is there is a radio and 12v supply retro fitted (not by me) that works wether the panel is on caravan or not, so there may be a small leach, which over 6 mo the could of easily killed the juice. I'm not sure just guessing and working It out. I dropped a ball just working out my best way of fixing and upgrading.

I try to get EHU but I do have the odd week off grid, and I have a motor mover (not needed for pitching, its small, but it's stored on a slope awkwardly parked on purpose, 100% can't get it out with a car from where I store it)

 

[donde_ayer]

Is the caravan permanently attached to the mains (EHU) when being used? If so, then providing the on board charger is working then you have no need for a higher capacity battery! In fact pretty much any old car battery, that can hold half a charge will suffice as basically its only needed to "smooth out" the 12v supply when the caravan is being used. A higher capacity battery would only really be needed if you have a motor mover or were off grid. I have assumed that this caravan in on your drive or similar and that is where it is being used so can be permanently hooked up to 230v
If you have allowed the battery to go utterly flat then it's probably, to quote Month Python, "An ex battery, it has ceased to be, it is dead mate"

The caravan hasn't been needed for a few months, as a rule it moves weekly, right now its at home and I plugged into mains to charge/top up the battery ready for use, I don't leave it plugged in, I fear I've left it too long.

The small bit of info missing is there is a radio and 12v supply retro fitted (not by me) that seemsto work wether the panel is on caravan or not, so there may be a small leach, which over 6 mo the could of easily killed the juice. I'm not sure just guessing and working It out. I dropped a ball just working out my best way of fixing and upgrading.

I try to get EHU but I do have the odd week off grid, at which point i will need phone and laptop charging facilities, thats about all it needs to do. and I have a motor mover (not needed for pitching, its small, but it's stored on a slope awkwardly parked on purpose, 100% can't get it out with a car from where I store it)

My caravan also doesn't have the cabling to charge the battery off the car, not sure if this is something I can add in but currently it's not, the 12v only charges when on mains.

 

[Buckman]

Apologies, but when you mentioned in the your first post, it was a work home I incorrectly assumed that it was being used as a workplace at home. Maybe an AGM or even a lithium battery would be more suitable if the caravan does not have a battery box?

 

[Mr Plodd]

Apologies, but when you mentioned in the your first post, it was a work home I incorrectly assumed that it was being used as a workplace at home. Maybe an AGM or even a lithium battery would be more suitable if the caravan does not have a battery box?

The same assumption I made.

 

[donde_ayer]

Apologies, but when you mentioned in the your first post, it was a work home I incorrectly assumed that it was being used as a workplace at home. Maybe an AGM or even a lithium battery would be more suitable if the caravan does not have a battery box?

@Mr Plodd apologies to you both for clumsy wording, I'll try to clarify both points. Not sleeping well so my brain is mush.

I work all over the country, I tow it with me to live in whilst away from home, and it's parked at the house when I'm working more local. I just mean it's a bit rough and ready, it's old and I don't expect too much from it, it's not a holiday caravan.

With regards to battery box, it does have one externally, which is where the current lead acid 60ah is, but the dimensions not allow for much movement on the width, I could just replace the battery like for like, but I was thinking of trying to upgrade to one that's safe to be under the bed (AGM or LIon?). By simply pulling the cabling through to inside and re terminating them. And still using the onboard "charger". Or am I looking at upgrading stuff to even do that? If I can find a higher capacity battery that fits in my battery box I'll just do that but it's tight.

 

[GUMPY]

Have you measured the battery box to confirm the max size of battery it can hold?
You may be surprised that it's bigger than you think🤔

 

[donde_ayer]

Have you measured the battery box to confirm the max size of battery it can hold?
You may be surprised that it's bigger than you think🤔

Height and depth have decent upgrade space, it's width. The box including "jut outs" allows for 350 absolute max (without removing the battery, I'll take it out tonight to check properly) without allowing for where the cables are going, the next size up in battery takes it to 353. Technically 3mm is nothing but I don't think I have the wiggle room on it. My thoughts are kinda if I can't get one that fits at least I have a plan.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Based on what you have told us, I am concerned about the radio which you tell us is permanently connected to the caravan battery, and that you don't have the wiring to charge the caravan battery from the tow vehicle. These are both modifications to what would have been the factory standard wiring when the caravan was built in 2002. It begs the question and concern that there may be other non standard modifications, which we can not know if they have been carried out to a safe standard.

I was under the impression all new UK caravans built in 2002 could accommodate a lead acid type leisure battery of about 100Ah capacity in the standard battery box.

From the picture you have added to your opening post, it seems you have a fairy typical 230Vac to 12Vdc power supply/charger that uses a Switched Mode converter. These produce a regulated 13.8Vdc which will run the caravans internal 12V items when you have and recharge an LA battery on good condition safely. As you have a caravan mover, and if you want to use it, you must have a battery to provide the current the mover needs.

You tell us you need 12Vdc off grid capability for a week. This posses more of a challenge, and you will definitely need a good battery, and skills at being economic with your 12V usage. Energy saving tips such as changing all the lights to LEDs, making sure you turn everything off when your finished with them, be wary of the things that continually sip power over longer periods, like lights, modern TVs, are much better than older ones, but they can eat a surprising amount of battery charge.

You might consider getting a 100W solar panel which over most days (even cloudy ones) can make a usefull contribution to the battery charge and extend the off grid capability by a few days.

Be warned, if you are off grid, the battery may be down on charge by the end of your stay, and it might not have the energy to run the mover.

 

[JTQ]

You have mentioned it has a retro fitted radio; if this is a "car" type radio it can have a very high continuous drain of power from the battery, unless it also has the equivalent of te original intended car ignition switch.
These unless installed correctly are not suitable for use in our caravan application. The powering feed that needs switching needs to be fed independently of the maintained feed that retains the channel selections. I even had a brand new caravan where the supplying dealer had installed one and incorrectly wired it up.

 

[Mr Plodd]

Noneed to apologise

Just get yourself a vented battery (the type where there is a singke vent point with a vent tube attached to it) and feed that pipe down through the floor. Job done

 

[donde_ayer]

Based on what you have told us, I am concerned about the radio which you tell us is permanently connected to the caravan battery, and that you don't have the wiring to charge the caravan battery from the tow vehicle. These are both modifications to what would have been the factory standard wiring when the caravan was built in 2002. It begs the question and concern that there may be other non standard modifications, which we can not know if they have been carried out to a safe standard.

I was under the impression all new UK caravans built in 2002 could accommodate a lead acid type leisure battery of about 100Ah capacity in the standard battery box.

From the picture you have added to your opening post, it seems you have a fairy typical 230Vac to 12Vdc power supply/charger that uses a Switched Mode converter. These produce a regulated 13.8Vdc which will run the caravans internal 12V items when you have and recharge an LA battery on good condition safely. As you have a caravan mover, and if you want to use it, you must have a battery to provide the current the mover needs.

You tell us you need 12Vdc off grid capability for a week. This posses more of a challenge, and you will definitely need a good battery, and skills at being economic with your 12V usage. Energy saving tips such as changing all the lights to LEDs, making sure you turn everything off when your finished with them, be wary of the things that continually sip power over longer periods, like lights, modern TVs, are much better than older ones, but they can eat a surprising amount of battery charge.

You might consider getting a 100W solar panel which over most days (even cloudy ones) can make a usefull contribution to the battery charge and extend the off grid capability by a few days.

Be warned, if you are off grid, the battery may be down on charge by the end of your stay, and it might not have the energy to run the mover.

I'll reply properly shortly, but quick one.

The grey feed from the caravan all the way to the car is 5 core not 7, no blue or brown (I think, 2 and 6 missing). It very much looks like the original cabling but obviously can't be sure.

 

[donde_ayer]

Noneed to apologise

Just get yourself a vented battery (the type where there is a singke vent point with a vent tube attached to it) and feed that pipe down through the floor. Job done

Not too many of them actually list wether vented or not 🙄 and if my current built in charger won't be suitable for agm or LIon not sure what my next step is

 

[donde_ayer]

You have mentioned it has a retro fitted radio; if this is a "car" type radio it can have a very high continuous drain of power from the battery, unless it also has the equivalent of te original intended car ignition switch.
These unless installed correctly are not suitable for use in our caravan application. The powering feed that needs switching needs to be fed independently of the maintained feed that retains the channel selections. I even had a brand new caravan where the supplying dealer had installed one and incorrectly wired it up.

That sounds way too technical to fix or even investigate myself, also sounds like an expensive thing to fault find for a cheaper old caravan 😒 the radio (I'm sure I remember correctly) will power up with the van control panel set to the middle (I.e
Not using van power) and not plugged to EHU, though recently that would turn on then go funny and turn off, so maybe I'm wrong and it's not drawing. Its definitely a more modern stereo than the van though, with speakers fitted to the front bulkhead and the factory speakers disconnected.

 

[donde_ayer]

Based on what you have told us, I am concerned about the radio which you tell us is permanently connected to the caravan battery, and that you don't have the wiring to charge the caravan battery from the tow vehicle. These are both modifications to what would have been the factory standard wiring when the caravan was built in 2002. It begs the question and concern that there may be other non standard modifications, which we can not know if they have been carried out to a safe standard.

I was under the impression all new UK caravans built in 2002 could accommodate a lead acid type leisure battery of about 100Ah capacity in the standard battery box.

From the picture you have added to your opening post, it seems you have a fairy typical 230Vac to 12Vdc power supply/charger that uses a Switched Mode converter. These produce a regulated 13.8Vdc which will run the caravans internal 12V items when you have and recharge an LA battery on good condition safely. As you have a caravan mover, and if you want to use it, you must have a battery to provide the current the mover needs.

You tell us you need 12Vdc off grid capability for a week. This posses more of a challenge, and you will definitely need a good battery, and skills at being economic with your 12V usage. Energy saving tips such as changing all the lights to LEDs, making sure you turn everything off when your finished with them, be wary of the things that continually sip power over longer periods, like lights, modern TVs, are much better than older ones, but they can eat a surprising amount of battery charge.

You might consider getting a 100W solar panel which over most days (even cloudy ones) can make a usefull contribution to the battery charge and extend the off grid capability by a few days.

Be warned, if you are off grid, the battery may be down on charge by the end of your stay, and it might not have the energy to run the mover.

Would the standard "built in" charging facility still be able to work with an AGM or Lithium? Or do I need to stick with lead batteries for the older van?

I will look into getting solar next, I'm apprehensive about spending too much if I end up upgrading the van, but I do want stuff to work, so trying to find a nice balance between "make do" and upgrade. I try to avoid off grid, but once or twice its been the only option, at that point its just phone and laptop, and lights, with the rest on gas. Having said that I don't have an inverter so laptop won't charge anyway. Off grid isn't the end of the world, but want to upgrade the battery if possible just to give me a chance.

I share your concerns about the electrics, but until having a dead battery, there was no alarm bells other than a socket with a constant feed (these may even be original, but the manual doesn't mention them from what I can see, and they just seem... out of place) I do however feel like the main feed cable from the car hookup is original, so the fact there is no battery charge from the car is a mystery to me and I assumed just something they decided not to include.

 

[Buckman]

Not too many of them actually list wether vented or not 🙄 and if my current built in charger won't be suitable for agm or LIon not sure what my next step is

I am fairly sure that there should be no issue with the AGM battery. The lithium may require a charger upgrade.

If you upgrade the caravan you can always transfer the battery. If solar panel is fixed on roof then it will need to stay there. Many later model caravans come with solar panels fitted either as standard or by previous owner.

 

[JTQ]

Do what we, or should I limit it to "I" did in the 70s, 80s & 90s, use an external battery in a weather proof but vented box.

One that we could place securely in the car boot and there recharge the previous night's drains whilst we drove out during the day time.

Use a lead acid battery as big a capacity as the box and heaving it about allowed.

 

[donde_ayer]

I am fairly sure that there should be no issue with the AGM battery. The lithium may require a charger upgrade.

If you upgrade the caravan you can always transfer the battery. If solar panel is fixed on roof then it will need to stay there. Many later model caravans come with solar panels fitted either as standard or by previous owner.

Just to make sure I'm not miss Reading. I could fit an AGM or LIon under the bench seat safely providing I upgrade the charger for the LIon?

 

[Buckman]

Just to make sure I'm not miss Reading. I could fit an AGM or LIon under the bench seat safely providing I upgrade the charger for the LIon?

The AGM will need to be vented to the outside and as mentioned a simple pipe, but an AGM battery should fit into the current locker. The lithium may require a change of charger due to age of the caravan. You will need professional advice on the latter. We had a 2004 Lunar with a 100ah battery.

 

[donde_ayer]

The AGM will need to be vented to the outside and as mentioned a simple pipe, but an AGM battery should fit into the current locker. The lithium may require a change of charger due to age of the caravan. You will need professional advice on the latter. We had a 2004 Lunar with a 100ah battery.

If all AGM have that vent available without me trawling the Internet, I'm fine venting it, that may be my easier option.

I was thinking about feeding a battery charger in using the 240v socket anyway, but I'm unsure about how to "disable" the caravans inbuilt charger so put that one on hold

 

[JTQ]

AGM batteries benefit from a special charging routine, that may not be an optional setting in the likely budget chargers often fitted in caravans.
Unless you know your charger has that option, it's a "dear" choice, therefore buying one is a near zero benefit battery choice.
Like many things its "horses for courses", well worth while if on the right course, a poor choice if not.