Buccaneer Commodore (2020) and Kia Sorento (2022) Noseweight Problems.

[BigTim]

The problem that we have found with our BOTH new to us Buccaneer Commodore and Kia Sorento. The Sorento replaced our previous Sorento Titan (2007) which we had had since new and had been a superb tow car in every way. The Commodore which we bought AFTER the car was on offer at a local dealer at a too-good-to-miss price and condition. We had put Buccaneers on our short list at the February Caravan Show at the NEC. We have been caravanning for nearly 30 years, all over the Continent, and UK and owned 2 single and one twin-axle caravans in that time so quite a bit of experience!!

However, on our first recent trip to Merseyside with the new combination we struggled to get the noseweight down to the towbar/Sorento noseweigh limit of 100Kg even after lightening the front end of the 'van, putting some heavier items just behind the axles and transferring a lot of caravan contents to the Sorento's boot. I realise that the van's MPTLM of 1954Kg is a heavy one considering the car's Kerb weight of 1954Kg and that the best achievable Noseweight is 5.11%. However, Sthe orento has a Gross Weight of 2,600 Kg and a Max Tow of 2,500Kg. This means that this combination IS LEGAL. I have checked with our car (Saga) and caravan insurers (Caravan Club) and neither have any restrictions on the 'van's MPTLM of 1957Kg exceeding 100% of the Sorento's Kerbweight of 1954Kg (a percentage of 100.2%)

On our return journey from Merseyside to Criccieth we experimented with changing the noseweigth on the towbar by rear-loading the 'van by putting a few heavier items over the 'van axles and leaving the internal water tank (under the rear bed) full with 50L of water and put most heavy equipment in the car. That was NOT a stable combination and we had to pull overASAP and drain the water tank. After that the caravan towed well on motorway and dual-carriageway for the 100 miles home to Criccieth, North Wales although I must confess I descended the infamous Rhuallt Hill at under 40mph

After a very demanding couple of years we now hope to resume our long-distance caravanning holidays all over the UK and into Continental Europe before old age overtakes us. (I'm 70 next month)

So now for the million dollar questions.

(1) Is this combination sensible or should we look for a heavier car?

(2) If the answer is that it IS sensible any tips on loading the car/van?

(3) If is NOT a SENSIBLE combination what car would people recommend - we don't want any type of electric vehicle as we do not yet think they are suitable for our towing needs. We would want a new/newish (up to 2 years old) car with 7 seats and good model reliability (so sorry NOT anything from the Landrover "stable") We are in the fortunate position of cost not really being an issue.

We will be VERY GRATEFUL for:

(a) Any specific answers to the above questions

(b) Particularly comments from anyone who tows a similar size 'van with a similar car, especially a Sorento.

Thanks in anticipatio

 

[otherclive]

It does sound as if the combination is borderline and having a 100 kg limit on the cars noseweight isn’t ideal. You have tried a number of combinations to get a stable confident tow.

My own thoughts are a heavier towcar would improve the towing capability. The likely options are probably well known to you. Some members of the Forum love their Touareg’s and one with a heavy TA Buccaneer is now on his second Jeep. But it’s really your choice.

 

[woodsieboy]

For me the key phrase in your question is 'after that the caravan towed well' so i would be inclined to attempt to replicate that set up when you next go away. We only ever had a stability problem once, and that was when I was persuaded to play about with noseweight, after never having a problem. Since then I have never checked noseweight, our Santa Fe has 150 limit on towbar and we tow single axle with no problems. I would be inclined to change the van rather than the car but thats because I don't trust Eldiss group products, personal opinion.

 

[Buckman]

Wise move emptying the water tank which I thought was only 40L. The vehicle is too light for the Commodore which is sad as otherwise it is an excellent tow car and very capable to towing the Buccaneer however the nose weight is an issue as on average nose weight is about 140kg plus of course the kerbweight. Some insurance companies will invalidate the insurance if one exceeds 95% of the kerbweight.

Ours is at 145kg when I measure it about 2 weeks ago so we have a leeway fo 50kg. At 145kg we have a very stable tow. Remember that as the caravan bounces along our roads the nose weight could fluctuate between zero and 200 or more kgs.

On the FB Buccaneer forum there are some who tried the Kia Sorento, but then change the vehicle for something more suitable to prevent the caravan taking control in an emergency. I think you may need to decide which to keep, the car or the caravan. If the car then you could upgrade the caravan to maximum MTPLM of 2000kg increasing the user payload.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The outfit you have is seriously on the large side, and the conventional advice from the UK caravan industry would be that your weight ratio is just over the top of what they would say is acceptable, but that is based on a very poor metric which fails to take into account the technical prowess of modern vehicles, and the advice can often seem to ignore legal requirements, but provided the total measured weight of trailer and car weight does not exceed the GTW and the measured weight of the tow vehicle does not exceed its GVW or axle load limits it is as you say legal.

Just becasue it's legal does not automatically mean it sensible, especially considering the size of caravans and how susceptible they are to aerodynamic windage. and as you have described it has been difficult to achieve what you consider to be a stable outfit. Clearly you are working right at the edge of its operating window. What you don't know is if there is any relatively normal road condition which might disturb the outfit to the point you might lose control.

I agree you need to reconsider either the car or the caravan.

Whilst I don't believe the industries advice is based on verifiable evidence, I do subscribe to the concept of keeping caravans as small and lightweight as possible.

 

[Paullus1959]

This is purely an observation but, I have never seen any Buccaneer caravan being towed by anything smaller than a Land Rover Discovery.
I have a KIA Sorento GT Line S and it pulls my caravan with an MTPLM of 1615kg effortlessly but, I wouldn't even entertain putting a Buccaneer on the back, even if it is legal.
Putting additional weight at the rear of the caravan to lessen the noseweight is going to increase the pendulum effect and risk of snaking.
I would ask yourself a simple question, are you ever going to be happy and confident towing the Buccaneer with the KIA? I would suggest that you are going to be stressed to the eyeballs worrying about it, not a happy thought if as you say, you are planning to resume long-distance caravanning.
My opinion, for what it's worth is to get a heavier towcar or a lighter caravan.

 

[RogerL]

Your post says "That was NOT a stable combination and we had to pull overASAP" and is the biggest possible clue that your car and caravan are mismatched.

Like any caravan forum, we could debate weights and ratios ad nauseum but those debates are almost always by caravanners with stable outfits.

Almost as an aside, towing with a full water tank should be a big no-no, at least in Europe, because there's no point or value ferrying water from home to a campsite - different if you were outbacking in Australia.

 

[Buckman]

Someone on another forum was asking the same question about the same combination and was given similar advice?

 

[Beachball]

Some friends of mine tow with a BMW X5 M50d and Buccaneer Cruiser and they have no problems

 

[Hutch]

Someone on another forum was asking the same question about the same combination and was given similar advice?

OMG, fancy two people having the same problem. 🤔

 

[Buckman]

Some friends of mine tow with a BMW X5 M50d and Buccaneer Cruiser and they have no problems

That car is a lot heavier than the Kia so not really a comparison?

 

[Beachball]

OMG, fancy two people having the same problem. 🤔

After a nap found the same question on Uk campsite

 

[Dustydog]

Sadly moving from the Titan beast of a Sorento to the later version you have lost the brilliant 140/150 kg nose load and body weight.
I can only echo the other Forumites comments. Clearly like most, you are a well seasoned caravanner and I suspect in your heart of hearts you already know the answer.
Your own expert experience has shown you that ,as mentioned by Roger.
I am afraid Tim something has to change. Car wise look to Germany or the US .Or downsize the caravan.Your current Sorie will easily cope with the Swift / Bailey TA,s most of which hover around the 1700 kgs.
How many miles pa do you do in the tug?

 

[Lutz]

I would question the stated kerbweight of 1954kg for the Sorento. Where does that figure come from? I strongly suspect that the kerbweight is higher.

 

[RogerL]

I would question the stated kerbweight of 1954kg for the Sorento. Where does that figure come from? I strongly suspect that the kerbweight is higher.

Kia's website gives that figure https://www.kia.com/uk/new-cars/sorento/specification/

 

[Lutz]

Kia's website gives that figure https://www.kia.com/uk/new-cars/sorento/specification/

That would only be a rough guide. The actual kerbweight can only be determined by putting the car on a weighbridge and that weight will probably be higher. Published kerbweight can never be anything more than an approximate value.

 

[BigTim]

Your post says "That was NOT a stable combination and we had to pull overASAP" and is the biggest possible clue that your car and caravan are mismatched.

Like any caravan forum, we could debate weights and ratios ad nauseum but those debates are almost always by caravanners with stable outfits.

Almost as an aside, towing with a full water tank should be a big no-no, at least in Europe, because there's no point or value ferrying water from home to a campsite - different if you were outbacking in Australia.

I had only left the water in the tank to see what effect would be. Obviously it was an extreme experiment and not something that I was planning on doing on a regular basis.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Based on Big Tims own description of how things worked out with/ without 50L (50Kg) water etc, under the rear bed. If that amount of loading almost at the rear extreme of a TA caravan causes an outfit to become unstable, it raises the real concern that even without the water, the outfit must be on the very edge of inherent instability. It clearly needs a more appropriate tow vehicle, or a smaller caravan to increase the outfits margin of stability.

 

[ProfJohnL]

. ..Some insurance companies will invalidate the insurance if one exceeds 95% of the kerbweight...

Please clarify, as this is confusing for those that do not know.

 

[Lutz]

. ..Some insurance companies will invalidate the insurance if one exceeds 95% of the kerbweight.

Please clarify, as this is confusing for those that do not know.

Any condition that an insurance company may place to that effect is pretty meaningless because kerbweight isn't documented anywhere, so it is impossible to provide any evidence.

 

[RogerL]

Any condition that an insurance company may place to that effect is pretty meaningless because kerbweight isn't documented anywhere, so it is impossible to provide any evidence.

Kerbweight is published by many manufacturers in their sales brochures and on their websites - the fact that it's generic and may not reflect a specific vehicle as built wouldn't stop the insurer using it as evidence of kerbweight - it would then be up to the owner to demonstrate that some other figure should be used instead, but that would be difficult without the manufacturer's backing.

 

[Buckman]

Any condition that an insurance company may place to that effect is pretty meaningless because kerbweight isn't documented anywhere, so it is impossible to provide any evidence.

I think you may be incorrect as isn't kerbweight on the V5 however and insurance company can impose any restriction that they deem may be unsafe. The CAMC may have restrictions regarding using the caravan although it may not be a legal requirement. You do not have to accept their offer.

 

[otherclive]

I think you may be incorrect as isn't kerbweight on the V5 however and insurance company can impose any restriction that they deem may be unsafe. The CAMC may have restrictions regarding using the caravan although it may not be a legal requirement. You do not have to accept their offer.

There’s a lot of “may” in your post, do you have any specific examples. Kerbweight on the V5 cannot be taken as accurate as different model specifications vary including dealer fit items.

 

[Buckman]

There’s a lot of “may” in your post, do you have any specific examples. Kerbweight on the V5 cannot be taken as accurate as different model specifications vary including dealer fit items.

When I am unsure, like many others the word "may" is used hoping that someone will clarify and make it crystal clear. What examples would you like that you cannot Google as unfortunately I have never worked for an insurance company so have no idea how they would impose that condition relating to kerbweight or how they would obtain any figures for kerbweight? Why not phone and insurance company with that restriction and ask? You could start with phoning Towergate and asking.

 

[Lutz]

Kerbweight is published by many manufacturers in their sales brochures and on their websites - the fact that it's generic and may not reflect a specific vehicle as built wouldn't stop the insurer using it as evidence of kerbweight - it would then be up to the owner to demonstrate that some other figure should be used instead, but that would be difficult without the manufacturer's backing.

A sales brochure can hardly be described as a document. Kerbweight is specific to each and every vehicle and is not unalterable. Retrofitting a towbar, for instance, changes the kerbweight. Whilst that may not be that much in the way of weight, it could be decisive if one is close to the limit and there is a case of dispute.

I think you may be incorrect as isn't kerbweight on the V5 however and insurance company can impose any restriction that they deem may be unsafe. The CAMC may have restrictions regarding using the caravan although it may not be a legal requirement. You do not have to accept their offer.

The V5 quotes mass in service, also known as mass in running order, which is also a generic value, but it doesn't give details of the kerbweight. The closest value to kerbweight which is actually required to be documented is "actual mass of the vehicle", but one will only find that under item 13.2 in the type approval certificate issued with every vehicle. However, even that can't take into account any changes after the vehicle left the factory. These could be quite substantial, for instance in the case of a panel van which is later converted to a campervan.

In the case of my BMW, for example, there's 150kg difference between the documented actual weight and its mass in service.