buying a write off - A close call

[JaneB1]

we went to collect our 92 sunbeam this afternoon. Having spoken to the seller in the week and asking for the criss number he gave us the chassis number instead. When we arrived we found the criss number for ourselves and called them, to discover our caravan was a write off.

We walked away immediately despite the sellers protests he would knock money off and there would be no implications to us in the future.

Obviously this seller is very dodgy indeed as one of the first questions we asked was "is it a write off" and he said not, he had purchased it to holiday in and changed his mind. Now he admits to buying it from a breakers!!!!

We had a close call and Im indebted to criss, but out of curiosity what are the implications of buying a written off van?

Jane

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

I'm not sure Jane but if it was me in your shoes I would seek advice from the police. You could save someone else a lot of grief.

 

[MONKEY1]

I'm not sure Jane but if it was me in your shoes I would seek advice from the police. You could save someone else a lot of grief.

This is one of the biggest problems caused by the lack of registration and MOT/annual testing of vans. The van was only registered with Cris as written off because the insurance companies engineer cited beyond a safe/economic repair and the insurance company passed on the details to Cris. However if the van is old it doesn't take much of a knock to be described as "un economic".

As for a declaration from the seller - if they lie and say it has been damaged and it's been repaired to their knowledge that's an offence. However it isn't a crime to sell a caravan that has been repaired and is safe for the road.

 

[MONKEY1]

sorry,

Imennt to reply rather than comment

This is one of the biggest problems caused by the lack of registration and MOT/annual testing of vans. The van was only registered with Cris as written off because the insurance companies engineer cited beyond a safe/economic repair and the insurance company passed on the details to Cris. However if the van is old it doesn't take much of a knock to be described as "un economic".

As for a declaration from the seller - if they lie and say it has been damaged and it's been repaired to their knowledge that's an offence. However it isn't a crime to sell a caravan that has been repaired and is safe for the road.

Regards Monkey's mate

 

[JaneB1]

who states that a van is now safe for the road though? Does it have to have some independant report done?

Also, if a van is repaired does its history stay with Cris? And does this have any effect on the new owners insurance? Will it mean that when the new ownerws come to sell in 2 or 3 years time that Cris flags up the same problems?

Im so angry about all of this, I have 2 very disappointed children and Ive missed out on a couple of other vans while I have been thinking I had found exactly what I wanted.

Jane

x

 

[MONKEY1]

Jane,

The engineer will usually have had some formal training a minimum of city and guilds and work in a NCC "National Caravan Council approved workshop". As in Cars the reason for the car/caravan being tagged; is that the insurance co has paid out on the van and usually would expect it to be broken. If it was damaged but repairable and economic to do so they usually insist on a repair or a lower settlement.

So one or two things applied here. Either the seller had it repaired properly and an engineers report complete with a limited time guarantee is presented to you or he did it him self or it was done on the cheap.

Most importantly you did the right think twice. Got a Cris report done and secondly didn't accept the pressure when the "history" came to light and the price suddenly comes down

Regards Monkeys husband

 

[CliveV]

Certainly contact the Police - tho' they may say it is not something they would deal with because of the lack of regulations - cars are a bit different.

You should consider a report to Trading Standards. Their offices will be in the phone book or do a search via Google or similar.

As said above - best to do something or some other poor person will get done.

 

[colin(bridgend)]

I am ay at bit of a loss on this topic. Monkey has stated that it is an offence to tell a prosepective purchaser that a caravan has been repaired and then sell it. I would have thought that if it was economical to repair a caravan and then sell it, informing the prospective purchaser that there has been a reapir carried out this would be within the lawas you would be honest. The reason I question this is that my caravan was involved in an accident on 9th. July and Friday 2nd. Sept. the insurance assesser inspected it. To date I have not heard any further. If my van is repairable how do I sell it afterwards as my wife is now frighrened to go in it, it turns her stomach just to look at it in the reapir workshop? Any comments would be appreciated.

 

[rayc]

Colin, There is no problem at all in having a caravan that has beeen damaged and then repaired it happens all the time and that is one of the reasons we have insurance. The problem is that in this instance the caravan has been subject to an insurance claim and it has been declared as a write off. The owner had been paid out and the van went to a broker who sold it on to the present seller. As Monkey said it may have been declared a write of for mechanical or cost reasons.

A point worth noting is that if the owner had not had insurance, or had and not made a claim, then we would be none the wiser.

I agree with Monkey's mate that a proper caravan registration system should be required, with a caravan having its own number as in France. It should also require an annual MOT for road worthiness.This would give you the same protection, limited maybe, that you have when buying a car. It could also perhaps shake up the caravan servicing world with independant garages getting involved.

As I said to Jane previously buying private it is buyer beware. I would want to know what the seller had used the van for, how long they had it etc to build up history. Jane did the right thing and found out its history at an early stage on first inspection. I would have asked a lot of questions on original telephone contact. I know its annoying for her but I am sure she will find the right one and put this behind her. Incedentally I live in Dorset and 25 stolen vans have been recovered by the Police at the Dorset Steam Fair. In many cases the people who had them had bought them in good faith and have now had them confiscated.

 

[MONKEY1]

I am ay at bit of a loss on this topic. Monkey has stated that it is an offence to tell a prosepective purchaser that a caravan has been repaired and then sell it. I would have thought that if it was economical to repair a caravan and then sell it, informing the prospective purchaser that there has been a reapir carried out this would be within the lawas you would be honest. The reason I question this is that my caravan was involved in an accident on 9th. July and Friday 2nd. Sept. the insurance assesser inspected it. To date I have not heard any further. If my van is repairable how do I sell it afterwards as my wife is now frighrened to go in it, it turns her stomach just to look at it in the reapir workshop? Any comments would be appreciated.

Colin,

Sorry if I didn't make it clear or that you misunderstood my point - If I was to sell a caravan to you knowing that it had been damaged/repaired and that you asked me "has it been repaired/involved in an accident" and I said no - then that is deception and as such I have committed an offence. However, if I say yes it has and the repair was made by my local swift agent for instance, and the insurance company paid for the repair then it is o.k. as the insuarnce company has sigend off the work to their satisfaction.

 

[JaneB1]

Colin, There is no problem at all in having a caravan that has beeen damaged and then repaired it happens all the time and that is one of the reasons we have insurance. The problem is that in this instance the caravan has been subject to an insurance claim and it has been declared as a write off. The owner had been paid out and the van went to a broker who sold it on to the present seller. As Monkey said it may have been declared a write of for mechanical or cost reasons.

A point worth noting is that if the owner had not had insurance, or had and not made a claim, then we would be none the wiser.

I agree with Monkey's mate that a proper caravan registration system should be required, with a caravan having its own number as in France. It should also require an annual MOT for road worthiness.This would give you the same protection, limited maybe, that you have when buying a car. It could also perhaps shake up the caravan servicing world with independant garages getting involved.

As I said to Jane previously buying private it is buyer beware. I would want to know what the seller had used the van for, how long they had it etc to build up history. Jane did the right thing and found out its history at an early stage on first inspection. I would have asked a lot of questions on original telephone contact. I know its annoying for her but I am sure she will find the right one and put this behind her. Incedentally I live in Dorset and 25 stolen vans have been recovered by the Police at the Dorset Steam Fair. In many cases the people who had them had bought them in good faith and have now had them confiscated.

Monkey, the seller runs a bodyshop and did the repairs himself, so no guarantee there!

He has mentioned getting an engineers report on the van in the hope we will still buy it, obviously we wont but Ill let him run around a bit as he messed me around for a week!

Jane

x

 

[JaneB1]

meant to reply rather than comment.....

Monkey, the seller runs a bodyshop and did the repairs himself, so no guarantee there!

He has mentioned getting an engineers report on the van in the hope we will still buy it, obviously we wont but Ill let him run around a bit as he messed me around for a week!

Jane

x

 

[JaneB1]

Having spent a restless night thinking about the situation we have made a few phone calls and done some checks.

We have established that the caravan can be re-registered with Cris providing we can produce a documented list of the repairs carried out. It would appear that as Monkey said it was written off because of age and value rather than damage as the only real damage to the van was the front roof panel. Looks like the last owner ran into a low barrier.

We then telephoned a caravan insurance company who assured us that this van is insurable for the same costs as any other providing the above list and re-register with cris.

We spent the day weighing up our options and figured that even if we keep this van for a couple of years the age of it means we are never going to make a profit so we may be better seeing it for what it could be, an increadibly cheap caravan that is dry, straight and clean and could give us a few very nice holidays.

We went back to the seller and asked him to be straight with us. It seems he genuinely didnt know it was a write off. he had no idea a caravan could be written off and wasnt too familiar with the Cris system either. Im inclined to belive he was a little "green". that in mind we made a ridiculously low offer which he accepted.

Watch this space.....

 

[Lord Braykewynde]

Good luck Jane, hope all goes well.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Jane and All,

Much has already been posted about Jane's concerns, and I think if you have any real doubts, it is better to walk away.

Just a few points though, Firstly there is no legal requiremt, for a caravan to be registerd with CRIS, however most insurance companies would recommend it.

An insurance write off fudamentally means they believe it is beyond economic repair - using normal commercial repairers and new components. It does not necessarily mean it is beyond mechanical repair.

A perfectly sound repair may be achieved using serviceable second hand components, and to keep the costs down, not charging for labour. Thus would be in the realm of a DIYer, or a repair shop with very low over heads.

Registration with CRIS is not a legal requirement, though most insurance companies would recommend it.

In a private sale, Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware) applies. As the purchaser you must ask all relavant question before the sale is concluded, as you have no automatic come back if you later discover something that you should have asked about earlier. The seller is obliged to answer all questions honestly, failure to do so could be construed as missleading, or as fraud.

As a trader, the law is different. The trader must disclose all relavant infromation (and a major repair would probably fall into this category). The trader cannot claim a "private sale", if the goods in question could be construed to be connecetd with thier trade. Trading Standards could legitimately take an interest if such an event took place.

As to the actual safety of the trailer, the effective requirement is that all road vehicles must be of a road worthy condition and not an inherent danger to other road users, pedestrians or property. How do check this? Ultimately it is down to the owner to decide, but efectievely you rely on the skill and competence of the person who services and maintains the trailer. The trailer manufactuire will certianly have identified some key points for the maintenance of the trailer, but in the event of a major repair, there is no formal procedure for domestic trailers.

Moving onto the idea of a caravan M.O.T. It would be unfair to burden cravans alone with this requirement, it would have to be all trailors.

Perhapse it is something that insurance companies could push, such that the certificate of insurance would not be providd until a valid trailer test was in force.