As I said, why over complicate a simple task and get involved in technicalities? Your long rambling posts on all the technicalities and possible scenarios are enough to scare any one away from using a caravan. Are you capable of writing a post with useful information that is less than 5 lines and doesn't scare the living daylights out of a caravanner, new or old? LoL!
Hi i just want to say been looking at nose weight readers on Ebay and there is actually a part on there which say there is a 3% tollarence so really you could use one and know your going to be safe. I understand the argument side of these devices but if they have a 3% tollarence then you are knowing the manufactures have taken the different heights and weights into account!
Hello Mr.Bell,
I'm sorry but no they havent taken heights into account. Any guage that changes its length when different loads are applied cannot off er an accurate measurement of the nose load as required by the Regulations.
The 3% accuracy claim may be true in so far that it will give a reading within 3% of the applied load, but if it fails to support the hitch at the towing height its inaccuracy will be increased (by an unknown amount) for the task it is being used for.
You cannot get away from the necesity to know the nose weight at the towing height. and none of the units I have seen to-day on Ebay achieve that.
But as I have explained, once you know yournose weight is correct by using the best method, you can then use one of the available commercial types to see wht it reads, the as long as you always use the same guage and go for the same reading, then you will be very close to your chosen nose weight.
I'm sorry but no they havent taken heights into account. Any guage that changes its length when different loads are applied cannot off er an accurate measurement of the nose load as required by the Regulations.
The 3% accuracy claim may be true in so far that it will give a reading within 3% of the applied load, but if it fails to support the hitch at the towing height its inaccuracy will be increased (by an unknown amount) for the task it is being used for.
You cannot get away from the necesity to know the nose weight at the towing height. and none of the units I have seen to-day on Ebay achieve that.
But as I have explained, once you know yournose weight is correct by using the best method, you can then use one of the available commercial types to see wht it reads, the as long as you always use the same guage and go for the same reading, then you will be very close to your chosen nose weight.
Hello Surfer,
I have in the past offered less detail, but then I get challenged by other contributers to validate the information. With technical matters it is often necessary to provide background information to demonstrated the point I am making is not just a whimsicle thought but is in fact has a sound technical basis.
It is particulary pertinent when other contributors make a statement that I know to be wrong and it needs to be shown why it is wrong, for example where a suggested practice is actually dangerous or contrary to regulations or law.
I appologies if you find my ramblings over complicated but you also have to remember that some readers will not have your knowledge on the subject and as such they need more information to be able to make an informed decision.
You are not obliged to read my postings, so you can choose to ignore them.
Is that any better 8 lines?
I have in the past offered less detail, but then I get challenged by other contributers to validate the information. With technical matters it is often necessary to provide background information to demonstrated the point I am making is not just a whimsicle thought but is in fact has a sound technical basis.
It is particulary pertinent when other contributors make a statement that I know to be wrong and it needs to be shown why it is wrong, for example where a suggested practice is actually dangerous or contrary to regulations or law.
I appologies if you find my ramblings over complicated but you also have to remember that some readers will not have your knowledge on the subject and as such they need more information to be able to make an informed decision.
You are not obliged to read my postings, so you can choose to ignore them.
Is that any better 8 lines?
Prof John L said:
No on my 17" monitor it is 13, an error of 62.5%
I thought this was all about accuacy; you have not taken the varing displays into account
I have taken the trouble to calculate the (theoretical) change in noseweight by raising the hitch 100mm, based on the following arbitrary, but, I think, nevertheless realistic, assumptions, just as an example:
1. Dimension measured horizontally from hitch to centre of axle: 4m
2. Dimension measured vertically from centre of axle to centre of mass: 1m
3. Mass of caravan: 1200kg
4. Hitch nominally at same height as the centreline of the axle
5. Nominal noseweight 75kg
If you use these figures then, by raising the hitch 100mm, the noseweight would drop from 75kg to a calculated value of 67.5kg. (The shorter and/or the heavier the caravan, the bigger the change)
I leave it to others to comment on the result.
1. Dimension measured horizontally from hitch to centre of axle: 4m
2. Dimension measured vertically from centre of axle to centre of mass: 1m
3. Mass of caravan: 1200kg
4. Hitch nominally at same height as the centreline of the axle
5. Nominal noseweight 75kg
If you use these figures then, by raising the hitch 100mm, the noseweight would drop from 75kg to a calculated value of 67.5kg. (The shorter and/or the heavier the caravan, the bigger the change)
I leave it to others to comment on the result.
JTQ
Gained in translation!!!!
the composing window is wider than the posting window
Lutz,
Thanks for the example, It should be pointed out that that is for a single axle caravan, If the same test were carried out on a twin axle, the results would be even more dramatic due to the interaction of the suspension of both axles.
Gained in translation!!!!
Lutz,
Thanks for the example, It should be pointed out that that is for a single axle caravan, If the same test were carried out on a twin axle, the results would be even more dramatic due to the interaction of the suspension of both axles.
And what methods/equipment does VOSA use to measure nose weight? Doubt very much it will be a broom stick and a set of scales from the £1 shop...........................................................................
Has anyone ever known VOSA to measure noseweight? I would have thought that they only bother if it is fairly obvious just by looking at the outfit that it's way over the limit anyway.cookieones said:
A couple of years ago Hampshire police were carrying out caravan checks at fleet services, pulling units off the motorway for “routine checks”. They had a section of the HGV parking area coned off where they directed all caravans. VOSA were in attendance and any unit that looked a bit heavy was directed over a dynamic axle weigh pad. In my case, because the unit looked (and indeed was) safe and legal they just checked the tyres, breakaway cable and did a CRIS check. I saw no sign of even the apparently overloaded units, with the tug’s suspension all but bottomed out, having the nose weight checked.
For yours & mr Bells infomation.Ihave had 3 different noseweight gauges every one of them has been up to 10kg out .
I like my Bell have a great deal of trouble loading my van & keeping the Van noseweight within the limits of my car.
The only reliable way I have found is to load the car measure the height of the towball assemble bathroom scales ,spreader plate , broomstick so that their combined height is the same as the cars towball.then take the reading
using spring loaded noseweight gauges is not as simple as you seem to think even if they were acurate. the average height of the guage is less than the height of the car towball AND then even lower once the thing has compressed to say 70kg with the caravan on it.so it must be set on a block so that when the required reading is shown the hitch is the same height as the car tow ball.1or 2 inches higher or lower can make a diference of + or minus 5-10 kg which when working to close tolerances like myself & mr Bell is a lot
I have indeed made up a block for my telescopic n/w guage so that my required reading would show at the correct height & I have marked the scale on the guage to show the correct position of 70kg and it differes from the scale reading by 15 kg
I like my Bell have a great deal of trouble loading my van & keeping the Van noseweight within the limits of my car.
The only reliable way I have found is to load the car measure the height of the towball assemble bathroom scales ,spreader plate , broomstick so that their combined height is the same as the cars towball.then take the reading
using spring loaded noseweight gauges is not as simple as you seem to think even if they were acurate. the average height of the guage is less than the height of the car towball AND then even lower once the thing has compressed to say 70kg with the caravan on it.so it must be set on a block so that when the required reading is shown the hitch is the same height as the car tow ball.1or 2 inches higher or lower can make a diference of + or minus 5-10 kg which when working to close tolerances like myself & mr Bell is a lot
I have indeed made up a block for my telescopic n/w guage so that my required reading would show at the correct height & I have marked the scale on the guage to show the correct position of 70kg and it differes from the scale reading by 15 kg
My cheapo red nose guage was only out a few kgs so nothing critical. PIA using bathroom scales and broom sticks. You only need to use bathroom scales once to determine if your noseweight guage is not calibrated correctly and then afterwards compensate for the difference on the cheapo. Easy peasy!
Yes that right Surfer,
Though you can only assume it is correct at exactly the same reading, and it is still important to do the reading on horizontal ground, as any slope will currupt the reading.
Though you can only assume it is correct at exactly the same reading, and it is still important to do the reading on horizontal ground, as any slope will currupt the reading.
I have a 50 kg test weight as used for testing kone cranes/ morris material handling/ cranes. given it some 5 years ago, In that time have had 3 bathroom scales,none have been "that" accurate, although i could at least adjust them so at 50kg they were reading correct,at that moment in time.
Surely this topic has got far too technical? and if not then surely some more key issues have be missed from the equation?Liked the idea of having the car fully laden before checking towball weight,but can anybody tell me if thats the Legal way to do it,or not?after all there will be variants,even if it is a mere kilo or two between fully laden and with full tank and unladen,and then chuck in you standard bathroom scales and their possible inaccuracies ,and with all the good intension's in the world you could be 5 or 6 kilo's out!
I have mentioned on another thread about VOSA new powers and indeed that they are checking more trailers/caravans than before,On this thread some have been critical about in accuracies of certain devices and their legality. OK thats all fine,but without knowing how VOSA would do such checks, laden unladen and using what sort of device,surely all we can do is try to be pretty accurate with our measurements without having to have a 2.1 in physics!
Surely this topic has got far too technical? and if not then surely some more key issues have be missed from the equation?Liked the idea of having the car fully laden before checking towball weight,but can anybody tell me if thats the Legal way to do it,or not?after all there will be variants,even if it is a mere kilo or two between fully laden and with full tank and unladen,and then chuck in you standard bathroom scales and their possible inaccuracies ,and with all the good intension's in the world you could be 5 or 6 kilo's out!
I have mentioned on another thread about VOSA new powers and indeed that they are checking more trailers/caravans than before,On this thread some have been critical about in accuracies of certain devices and their legality. OK thats all fine,but without knowing how VOSA would do such checks, laden unladen and using what sort of device,surely all we can do is try to be pretty accurate with our measurements without having to have a 2.1 in physics!
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I calculated that the noseweight of a typical outfit would change from 75kg to 67.5kg by raising the hitch 100mm. It's easy enough to find out what the actual change is for your particular outfit simply by measuring the noseweight at different heights.
One would have to have a very soft suspension on the towcar for the ride height to change by 100mm depending on whether it is fully laden or not (at least, so long as you don't overload the car). I therefore think we are getting a bit too concerned about the subject issue. The changes in noseweight will normally not be that dramatic, so if you leave yourself a reasonable margin below the specified limit, you shouldn't get into any problems with VOSA or anyone else.
It really would be very unrealistic to stop every now and again during a longer journey simply to readjust the noseweight as the contents of the fuel tank are being used up.
One would have to have a very soft suspension on the towcar for the ride height to change by 100mm depending on whether it is fully laden or not (at least, so long as you don't overload the car). I therefore think we are getting a bit too concerned about the subject issue. The changes in noseweight will normally not be that dramatic, so if you leave yourself a reasonable margin below the specified limit, you shouldn't get into any problems with VOSA or anyone else.
It really would be very unrealistic to stop every now and again during a longer journey simply to readjust the noseweight as the contents of the fuel tank are being used up.
JonnyG said:
you are right as how do you know that the bathroom scales are going to be as acurate as any other devices. Surley as long as the outfit you have isnt overloaded and its not swaying around and you pack the caravan correctly then i would say you should be ok. Fair enough yes check your nose weight every so often BUT how many people do actually check the nose weight!?? There should be a calculater built into the caravan which tells you what the weight of the caravan is and also have some sort of device which tells you what the nose weight is!! im sure so someone out there will make a device which will be accurate.
Hello Mr. Bell,
You make some good points, let me take them in reverse order, I completely agree that a properly engineered solution could be designed and incorporated into the hitch design - or into the tow ball mount, however one of the reasons this hasn't happened is the need for such a device to be able to be calibrated.
This brings us onto the accuracy of bathroom scales. You are right to sceptical about them, as very few are calibrated in the scientific sense. However it is possible to check you bathroom scales fairly easily, and certainly to a degree of accuracy close to 1%. A litre of water weights 1Kg, so by using a large container (a caravan water carrier for example) you can readily check the linearity of the scales, and work back to establish the zero or tare.
The other big advantage of bathroom scales is the resolution of the graduations. Most mechanical ones will display 1Kg or 2lb graduations, and digital ones will display 0.5Kg or 1lb steps. This is much finer than any telescopic nose weight guage I have seen. Consequently you can have a much greater confidence in the bathroom scale method.
I personally think this thread has run its course. and to summarise:-
You make some good points, let me take them in reverse order, I completely agree that a properly engineered solution could be designed and incorporated into the hitch design - or into the tow ball mount, however one of the reasons this hasn't happened is the need for such a device to be able to be calibrated.
This brings us onto the accuracy of bathroom scales. You are right to sceptical about them, as very few are calibrated in the scientific sense. However it is possible to check you bathroom scales fairly easily, and certainly to a degree of accuracy close to 1%. A litre of water weights 1Kg, so by using a large container (a caravan water carrier for example) you can readily check the linearity of the scales, and work back to establish the zero or tare.
The other big advantage of bathroom scales is the resolution of the graduations. Most mechanical ones will display 1Kg or 2lb graduations, and digital ones will display 0.5Kg or 1lb steps. This is much finer than any telescopic nose weight guage I have seen. Consequently you can have a much greater confidence in the bathroom scale method.
I personally think this thread has run its course. and to summarise:-
- The regulations are there in black and white and thus are enforceable.
- the imposed nose weight is dependant on the height of the hitch.
- The regulations require nose weight to be measured at towing height.
- The nose weight limits are just that, limits not targets with tolerance.
- No telescopic gauge can provide a range of nose weight measurements in accordance with the regulations.
- Poor nose weight measurement practice is rife.
- There is considerable inertia to the concept of ensuring correct nose weights.
Hopefully the OP has bougt a nice cheapo nose weight gauge and is using common sense like most people when loading a caravan.
Prof John L said:
I guess that includes you as you have to be so particular and fastidious about everything. LOL!
In know I can't lift more than the 80kg limit specified for my car, so if I can just about hold the hitch at towball height, that's good enough for me.
Surfer
This thread is not about me, it is about the regulations and safe practice of nose weight measurment.
The attitude of "thats about right" seems to be indemic and has long been whats wrong with much of Britain, and its why we have lost our way in so many areas when others have been "so particular and fastidious about everything" they have gained as we have lost. a prime example was the Britsh Car Indusrty in the 60 through to the mid 90's.
Look at the aerosace industry, if "thats about right" were the approach to design and maintaneance would you be happy to fly?
Look at the criminal justice system, would such a lax approach be tollerated by either prosecution or defence?
Look at the construction industry - how many projects are spoilt because the job was slip shod.
There is everything right in being "particular and fastidious" and I will continue to do so. When I spot a caravanning practice that is wrong, or that can lead a reader into an illegal situation I will continue to point it out and explain why. readers can then at least make an informed choice and be aware of the possible consequences.
Ultimately it is down to personal choice which processes you follow, but equally you have to accept the possible consquences if the methods give you the wrong output.
This thread is not about me, it is about the regulations and safe practice of nose weight measurment.
The attitude of "thats about right" seems to be indemic and has long been whats wrong with much of Britain, and its why we have lost our way in so many areas when others have been "so particular and fastidious about everything" they have gained as we have lost. a prime example was the Britsh Car Indusrty in the 60 through to the mid 90's.
Look at the aerosace industry, if "thats about right" were the approach to design and maintaneance would you be happy to fly?
Look at the criminal justice system, would such a lax approach be tollerated by either prosecution or defence?
Look at the construction industry - how many projects are spoilt because the job was slip shod.
There is everything right in being "particular and fastidious" and I will continue to do so. When I spot a caravanning practice that is wrong, or that can lead a reader into an illegal situation I will continue to point it out and explain why. readers can then at least make an informed choice and be aware of the possible consequences.
Ultimately it is down to personal choice which processes you follow, but equally you have to accept the possible consquences if the methods give you the wrong output.
I would like to qualify my previous reply in this thread in case someone thinks that I'm acting a bit irresponsibly. As I said, I can't lift 80kg which is the limit for my car - well not easily, anyway. However, I have 'calibrated' my own lifting capability. Straddling the hitch I can hold around 70kg for at least 10 seconds. That's about the time I need to hitch caravan to car and 70kg gives me an outfit that is stable. The only variable is my age. As I'm getting older I need to check now and again whether lifting 70kg is still no problem.
I would add, however, that maybe other outfits are more sensitive to noseweight changes and my simple method wouldn't necessarily be appropriate in such circumstances.
I would add, however, that maybe other outfits are more sensitive to noseweight changes and my simple method wouldn't necessarily be appropriate in such circumstances.
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