Caravans who don't care

[Surfer]

Please quote the regulation that states you should be able to see the rear corners on both sides of the trailer when towing in a straight line as I am of the opinion that the law states "adequate vision". Thanks.

BTW as 2.55m caravans are allowed on the road, seeing both rear corners of the trailer is an impossiblity unless you break the law and have the mirrors extending past the legal limit.

The field of view requirements are included in EU Directive 2003/97/EC which is referenced in the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations. Those that apply to cars, including those towing trailers, will be found in Figure 8 on page 38.

I think you will need to look at figure 8 again as that does not include a trailer. Neither John nort yourself can point to legislation in the UK concerning towing mirrors and field of vision. Are you making it up as you go along?

BTW I do use 2 mirrors!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello surfer

The entire document relates to the design and placement and use of rear view mirrors. It is designed to improve safety.

I cannot imagine why anyone should wish to suggest an interpretation that is less safe when it is so easy to maximise vision around large vehicles.

All the diagrams and relevant information clearly show that the field of view includes the parallel sides of the vehicle behind the driver. That by definition means the rear corners of the vehicle must be included in the field of view.

In the terms of the regulations a vehicle may be rigid or articulated which includes cars with trailers.

I can only respond for my self, but I do not seek to pervert the essence of regulations or laws, and I certainly do not casually make it up as I go along as you try to jokingly imply. To do so would be irresponsible and unprofessional.

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

Hi all.
intresting thread but a couple of anomalies spring to mind,
surely if you can see down both sides of the van with standard mirrors, then extra towing mirrors should not be required,
and when towing a trailer with a width smaller than the towing vehicle you cannot see the sides anyway?? true you can see an area wider than the sides but not the sides themselves, and definitly not the rear corners.
I tow a small garden trailer and when attached to the car it dissapeares does this mean it is not legal to tow?
just a thought.

 

[Lutz]

The regulations apply to the complete outfit. This is clearer in Figure 9 which shows an articulated semi-trailer unit as an example. My interpretation of the sketches is that the inside boundary line field of view requirement is parallel to the widest point of the complete outfit. Therefore, if you are towing a trailer which is narrower than the car, you do not have to see the rear corner of the trailer. but that's only my understanding.

 

[AbbeyOwner]

I dont want a 60 quid fine and three points.

 

[Parksy]

Click Here to see the regulations for towing a caravan or trailer.
If your towing mirrors are the rubber strap type when they are fitted to your vehicle mirrors pull the back of the strap down to tighten it with one hand and pull the end through the slot with the other hand to prevent excessive vibration. You could also try crossing the straps at the back of the vehicle mirror like this : X

 

[AbbeyOwner]

Click Here to see the regulations for towing a caravan or trailer.
If your towing mirrors are the rubber strap type when they are fitted to your vehicle mirrors pull the back of the strap down to tighten it with one hand and pull the end through the slot with the other hand to prevent excessive vibration. You could also try crossing the straps at the back of the vehicle mirror like this : X

Yes them are the ones i have

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Colin,

In essence the requirement is that once the mirrors are set before the journey you must be able to see the required field of view without further adjustment. If that can be achieved without additional mirrors then the regulations has been satisfied.

But the vast majority of caravans are significantly wider than the tow car and so the cars standard mirrors will simply not have the width to encompass the parallel sides of the caravan so additional wider mirrors are usually essential.

 

[Parksy]

I think you will need to look at figure 8 again as that does not include a trailer. Neither John nort yourself can point to legislation in the UK concerning towing mirrors and field of vision. Are you making it up as you go along?

BTW I do use 2 mirrors!

The the Directgov website clearly states that 'If your caravan or trailer is wider than the rear of the towing vehicle, you must by law fit suitable towing mirrors. These mirrors are usually 'E-marked' (mirrors with this mark meet EU requirements).
If you're towing blind (without towing mirrors) or using unsuitable mirrors, you can be:

• prosecuted by the police
• given three points on your licence
• fined up to £1,000 '

The website doesn't actually mention the field of vision but it's clear enough for most responsible caravan owners.
Pointless argument and accusations of people 'making it up as they go along' along with demands to see which piece of legislation applies is wrong and misleading to newbies.
Unless you want to risk a fine and penalty points, fit towing mirrors when towing the caravan - end of story!

 

[Surfer]

I think you will need to look at figure 8 again as that does not include a trailer. Neither John nort yourself can point to legislation in the UK concerning towing mirrors and field of vision. Are you making it up as you go along?

BTW I do use 2 mirrors!

The the Directgov website clearly states that 'If your caravan or trailer is wider than the rear of the towing vehicle, you must by law fit suitable towing mirrors. These mirrors are usually 'E-marked' (mirrors with this mark meet EU requirements).
If you're towing blind (without towing mirrors) or using unsuitable mirrors, you can be:

• prosecuted by the police
• given three points on your licence
• fined up to £1,000 '

The website doesn't actually mention the field of vision but it's clear enough for most responsible caravan owners.
Pointless argument and accusations of people 'making it up as they go along' along with demands to see which piece of legislation applies is wrong and misleading to newbies.
Unless you want to risk a fine and penalty points, fit towing mirrors when towing the caravan - end of story!

No one is arguing about fitting mirrors, the argument is about field of vision and the "must" see both rear corners of caravan. I disagree on this aspect and nowhere is it defined in law. It states adequate vision. End of!

 

[Gafferbill]

Why not ask a Police traffic officer how he/she would apply this law ?
You could then argue your case and let us know the outcome!!

 

[Parksy]

No one is arguing about fitting mirrors, the argument is about field of vision and the "must" see both rear corners of caravan. I disagree on this aspect and nowhere is it defined in law. It states adequate vision. End of!

Are you trying to tell us that you'd position your towing mirrors in such a way that you couldn't see the rear corners of your caravan?
Who cares what the legal definition states, use your sense man!

 

[Lutz]

No one is arguing about fitting mirrors, the argument is about field of vision and the "must" see both rear corners of caravan. I disagree on this aspect and nowhere is it defined in law. It states adequate vision. End of!

Why are you continuing to ignore the field of view requirement as laid down in the Construction and Use Regulations? There wouldn't be any point in requiring 'adequate rear vision' without quantified values against which it is possible to check. One can't leave something like that open to personal interpetation.

 

[Gafferbill]

.........the old adage comes to mind!

If you cannot see the mirrors of the vehicle in front of you, then its driver cannot see you ..........and that’s even supposing its driver is looking in his mirrors in the first place !!

 

[Surfer]

No one is arguing about fitting mirrors, the argument is about field of vision and the "must" see both rear corners of caravan. I disagree on this aspect and nowhere is it defined in law. It states adequate vision. End of!

Why are you continuing to ignore the field of view requirement as laid down in the Construction and Use Regulations? There wouldn't be any point in requiring 'adequate rear vision' without quantified values against which it is possible to check. One can't leave something like that open to personal interpetation.

Dream on as you are NOT pulling my caravan using my vehicle with my mirrors so you don't knlow what you are talking about. No one can see the left rear corner of their caravan when in a straight line using caravan extension mirrors. The LAW states adequate vision and not some fictional mythical number that you have thought up. Until I see that in writing in a law book I maintain my stance about adequate vision which has never been tested in a court of law.

 

[xtrailman]

I use extension mirrors, very large ones, and always set them up to see passing traffic.
But i don't think i can see the rear corners.

 

[RogerL]

No one can see the left rear corner of their caravan when in a straight line using caravan extension mirrors.

I can !!
That's the whole point of fitting towing mirrors which give an adquate field of vision - this requires mounting the towing mirrors so that they project outside the width of the caravan - which makes it EASY to see both rear corners of the caravan when in a straight line - that way the blind spot is limited to the width of the caravan, rather than an increasing cone of blindness - you can't get more adequate than that.

 

[airsiggy]

When I was at a large caravan dealers several weeks ago I mentioned nose weights and the salesman replied to my amazement that "people don't seem to bother with that now". My comment was that was probably why we hear on the news about caravans overturning !

As regards speed what is illegal at towing at over 60 mph in the UK is legal in France up to 82mph whilst in Germany the legal towing limit is 50mph. So which speed limit is safe or which is abitrary. You might break a speed limit but is doesn't mean you are dangerous, e.g. if you tow faster than the German 50mph are you dangerous towing at 60mph in the UK.

 

[Lutz]

As regards speed what is illegal at towing at over 60 mph in the UK is legal in France up to 82mph whilst in Germany the legal towing limit is 50mph. So which speed limit is safe or which is abitrary. You might break a speed limit but is doesn't mean you are dangerous, e.g. if you tow faster than the German 50mph are you dangerous towing at 60mph in the UK.

Actually, if your outfit fulfils certain conditions, you can obtain permission to tow at 100km/h in Germany. If the car has ABS braking, the caravan an approved stabiliser and shock absorbers and the weight ratio does not exceed 100% (120% in the case of other trailers) you can obtain a 100km/h sticker to allow you to tow at that speed. The conditions were determined on the basis of tests and accident data and are in accordance with research conducted by the University of Bath which concluded that caravan outfits have a critical speed of between 50 and 60mph above which stability cannot be regained without active intervention.

 

[Lutz]

No one can see the left rear corner of their caravan when in a straight line using caravan extension mirrors.

I can !!

So can I (however, the right hand corner in my case as the car is left hand drive).

 

[Parksy]

No one is arguing about fitting mirrors, the argument is about field of vision and the "must" see both rear corners of caravan. I disagree on this aspect and nowhere is it defined in law. It states adequate vision. End of!

Why are you continuing to ignore the field of view requirement as laid down in the Construction and Use Regulations? There wouldn't be any point in requiring 'adequate rear vision' without quantified values against which it is possible to check. One can't leave something like that open to personal interpetation.

Dream on as you are NOT pulling my caravan using my vehicle with my mirrors so you don't knlow what you are talking about. No one can see the left rear corner of their caravan when in a straight line using caravan extension mirrors. The LAW states adequate vision and not some fictional mythical number that you have thought up. Until I see that in writing in a law book I maintain my stance about adequate vision which has never been tested in a court of law.

As it happens when I used the old rubber strap mirrors I couldn't really see the rear nearside corner of my caravan but with the set of Millencos that I bought last year I can see along both sides to both rear corners and beyond.
I think that owing to the hostilty that appears to be developing it's time to agree to disagree, do as you think fit and unless there is anything constructive which doesn't add to the confusion, leave forum members to make up their own minds.

 

[RogerL]

I don't think this is an issue to "agree to disagree" - it's a matter of common-sense and legal requirement.

 

[Parksy]

I don't think this is an issue to "agree to disagree" - it's a matter of common-sense and legal requirement.

Most of us recognise that it's a legal requirement Roger.
There comes a point when debates about the finer points of caravanning and the legalities thus encompassed begin to become crusade like and personal.
Experience has taught me, as a forum moderator, that these personal off topic arguments can drag on for forum page after forum page and the end result is that other forum members and casual browsers become bored and confused and end up none the wiser.
There are enough comments on this topic to allow most of us to make up our own minds which is the correct thing to do regarding towing mirrors, we don't really care much about links to EC legislation so we use our judgement and sense to stay within the law in as much as common sense dictates.
If individuals wish to continue to post off topic comments they should open a separate topic, preferably on a different caravan forum because the stubborn nit picking and hostility adds precisely nothing of value to Practical Caravan forum.
This topic is now closed.

 

[xtrailman]

I use some old strap on mirrors, magnum i think they are.

I have considered changing them for a E rated type, but I'm put off by the method of attachment, the screw type clamping, doesn't this mark the mirror, or put excess pressure over a small area??

 

[Parksy]

The clamps fasten on to the mirror surround and do not touch the glass and the pads at the end of the clamps are sufficiently large enough to distribute the pressure over a wider area.
They are much better than the strap mirrors.