Coachman Showers

[redleader]

Hi, I'm new to the forum, but been caravanning for the last 30 years or so..
We purchased a Coachman 460 Pastiche Platinum Special edition new last July. It was brand new stock, straight from the factory, not one that had been on display. Since then we have used it for around 23 days. We have just returned from a few days away and I noticed some silicon had come adrift on the outside of the shower tray, but this is what I found when I looked into the bottom corner of the inside of the shower tray, just by where the door closes! The top crack is on the panel join, but the bottom crack is within the shower tray itself. With normal hand pressure on the base the crack opens to more than 1/8", which to me means that the tray is being pulled up by the side panels, and is therefore under tension when stood on. The length of the sealant crack is 3", the length of the crack in the shower tray is around 2 ¾".
The caravan is under warrantee, and I expect a company such as Coachman will put it right correctly, but I wonder if there is a design flaw here, as the caravan has hardly been used, and both my wife and I are fairly lightweights, and nothing has ever been stored or transported in the shower.
Interested to know if it has happened to any others with the circular shower design?
Also interested to know how they are going to fix it!
Cheers
Don

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[redleader]

Just another pic to give more of an idea where I'm talking about..

Cheers

Don

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[Damian]

Fixing it will involve removing the damaged one and fitting a new one.
There are numerous cases of shower trays cracking, unfortunately and not just a single particular manufacturer, it is spread across most of them.

 

[woodsieboy]

Hello Don,
After reading your post I checked our shower in our 2011 Pastiche,ours has cracked in the same area, although it is hard to tell if ours is a crack or whether the wall of the shower joins the tray and the sealant has parted, either way I would not be happy to use the shower,ours is not as developed as yours, although we have never used the shower. We have stored an empty aquaroll in the tray when travelling, but like you we consider ourselves experienced caravanners,this being our seventh van. I assume that as yours is a Glossop dealer special you will be going back to them, we bought ours from Raymond James near Coventry, which for us is a return trip of 100miles. I intend to contact Coachman first thing Monday morning to see whether they will agree to us having our caravan inspected locally,as according to my understanding of the Coachman warranty the van can be serviced by any workshop approved by them so hopefully they will approve a repair or replacement shower without the long trip back to the supplying dealer. This is our first Coachman and while we have been pleased so far, we are a bit disappointed to find this crack particularly as one of the reasons we bought the Coachman was the reputation for build quality.I wil be interested to hear how you get on,similarly I will post again once there are any developments.

Keith

 

[redleader]

Hi Keith, sorry to hear you have found similar, although it sounds as yours may be on the base to side panel join. But, I wonder if yours is the start to what might develop to similar to ours with the base itself cracking? With hand pressure on the base does the crack open up? The cause needs to be found and rectified, and not just re-sealed or it will simply happen again. We do use our shower, but as mentioned, we are fairly lightweights It is the fact that the van is so new and little used that worries me.
You are correct, it is a Glossop special edition, but when I bought it I asked if any warrantee work could be done at a dealership closer to home. They told me that was fine, and in fact a couple of weeks ago I had some warrantee work done, but it is still a 140 mile return trip!
As a side issue, one of the things replaced under warrantee was the sink, as tiny rust type spots were appearing. Have you noticed anything similar with your sink, as I dont know if I am being over fussy, but I think I can see similar marks appearing on the replacement, and we have only used the replacement for 3 days. It seems to mark ever so easily.
I have discussed and forwarded pics of the cracks to Ropers at Catterick who have been really good so far even though we didn't purchase the van from them, and they will be contacting Coachman on Monday. My worry is that once repaired, whats to stop it happening again unless the actual cause is found and rectified.
I bought a Coachman for exactly the same reason as you, so let's hope they prove how good their reputation is and provide us with a quick and painless solution that lasts!
Like you, I will update with any developments.
Don

 

[woodsieboy]

Hello Don
You are right, our crack seems to be where the wall joins the shower tray, and my initial thought was that it will only get worse. If you press down on the shower tray there is a squeaky sort of creaking noise and the gap does open although not as far as yours, it almost feels as if the shower tray is not being supported enough. With regards to the sink we have not noticed any rust spots although we find that stainless steel sinks do tend to mark easily, our last caravan was a Bailey and that would mark if we left the bowl in the sink when travelling,as I have to go in to work tomorrow I have e mailed Coachman's customer service dept about the shower today asking for their advice on whether I can have it examined locally. We do use the showers in our vans it is just that we have been away 4 times since we bought the van last October and each time we stayed at CC sites and used the on site showers.I t takes us a few trips to get to grips with a new van and I have fitted an extra 240v socket and extra shelving in the cupboards. I haven't got the hang of the Radio/CD/DVD player yet and the disc that came with it comes up as 84 pages of instructions, so that can wait.
Otherwise we are very pleased with the van, and the hidden things like bedslats and inside cupboards do appear to be of a better standard than other caravans we have owned. Time will tell whether the Coachman reputation is justified.

 

[redleader]

Hi Keith, like you I've fitted an extra socket to match in with the others, and I know what you mean about the radio!! Why cant it have a button labelled on and off!!
In your case as I dont think there is any damage to the base, they may want to do the easy option and simply reseal the join. I would make sure they actually sort out why there is movement before it is resealed, or as previously discussed, it will just do it again. With mine it looks like a new shower, or at least a new base unit!
Keep in touch
Cheers
Don

 

[redleader]

I rang Plas-Tech the shower tower manufacturer offering photos for their comment and mentioned similar problems with Keiths van. Seems they will only deal with Coachman regarding warrantee work, so we'll just have to wait and see...!

 

[woodsieboy]

Hello Don
Having looked at the Coachman floorplans you have a round shower, whereas ours although round has a built up area over the wheelarch, which means our shower tray is smaller than yours,and I wonder if this means that it is not under as much pressure. If you get the chance to look at the floorplans ours is a 545, which will make it all clearer.
I have not had a reply from Coachman, regarding the e mail that I sent, so will give them another 48 hours and then follow up.
Keith

 

[NickinFrance]

I'll say it before Prof does, your contract & therefore any problem/rectification is with the dealer, not the manufacturer, which I bet is what Coachman will tell you.

 

[woodsieboy]

Hello Nick in France
We know our contract is with our supplying dealers, but Coachman have previously allowed warranty work to be carried out by non supplying dealers, hence the enquiry from me to Coachman, as the crack in my shower is not at this stage as bad as Don's I am seeking authority from Coachman for it to be examined locally, and if necessary I will return it to my supplying dealer, it is the distance of 100 miles to the dealer that is of concern.I have our caravans serviced by a NCC approved mobile engineer and he has assured me he is able to carry out warranty work once Coachman give approval, as it is them that will be paying.

 

[redleader]

I have no doubt that Coachman will resolve the problem, my concern is that other owners do not realise that they have a problem! Any one with a circular shower, have a look! I thought I was fastidious, and I missed it until I saw a bit of loose silicon!!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Woodsieboy and Nick,

Nick is absolutely right that your warranty under the sale of goods act rests with the seller, but Woodsie has taken advantage of the Manufactures Guarantee, which often mimics the sellers warranty, but can never usurp it. even though there are many practical similarities between the two schemes, they are legally very different.

The Sale of Goods Act(SoGA) requires all retailers to ensure the products they sell are:-
Fit for purpose
Free from design, material and workmanship faults
must be of merchantable quality.
Whilst this must be true at the point of sale, there is an implied requirement for products to remain in that condition for some reasonable time after the point of sale. In fact it can be up to six years depending on what is a reasonable life expectancy for the product or its parts. This only applies to the original customer, and the rights to warranty cover do not transfer to a second owner if you sell the product privately.

With the exception of malicious or accidental damage, the scope of SoGA does now include a presumption that if a fault manifests its self within six months of ownership, the presumption is the fault or the underlying causes of the fault would have been present at the time of purchase, and thus the seller is obliged to remedy the situation. But after six months the onus is on the owner to prove the fault was present at the ToP.

The manufactures guarantee is prospective, and subject to terms and conditions. It covers products that develop a fault or fail after the point of sale. The guarantee only exists when the manufacture accepts the owners application (registration). However when it is accepted it is a formal contractual arrangement even though no money has changed hands.

Where as the warranty only exists between the seller and the customer, the manufacturer's guarantee usually allows non selling agents to undertake repairs that will be paid for by the manufacture. BUT neither the manufacture or the non selling agent approached to do the work is obliged to actually do work that the seller is responsible for under the SoGA warranty.

Complex isn't it!

To be fair, it is very unusual for the sort of issue Woodsie is having to become involved in nitty gritty wrangles about responsibility as the manufacturer seems to have stepped up to the mark.

Hope it all goes well.

 

[woodsieboy]

Hello Don
I have had an e mail from Coachman today telling me that warranty work must be done by my dealer,which I think means the supplying dealer so I am interested to hear how you have got on with your repair. They have not told me whether the shower tray is separate from the wall,I have also asked again whether I can arrange inspection of the damage locally to determine the extent of the repair that will be needed,so I am waiting for their reply. I pointed out that the 2x200mile round trips to return and collect the caravan will be expensive in fuel and time. It could be, that if my caravan only needs the sealant replacing, I would be better off paying to have the repair done locally.

 

[Martin24]

Following service today we are waiting to hear about when we can proceed to have 30 percent damp rectified in front and top corners of our 2010 Amara. Not best pleased but daren't say anything to anyone at the factory as sometimes they take things the wrong way and then you struggle to get things sorted.

 

[woodsieboy]

Hi Martin 24
Just wonder if this is your first problem with your Coachman, both Don and I bought Coachman because of their reputation for build quality. I know there have been problems mentioned on this forum with most makes of van. Our past experiences regarding warranty work from Swift Group were that we had the work done locally not the supplying dealer. With our Bailey we only had 2 warranty items both were replaced by the supplying dealer who happened to be local with no fuss at all. Are you implying that Coachman can get a bit precious at the idea that they may have produced a faulty product.

 

[Martin24]

I have had previous problems with components in my 2007 and this is the first time where water ingress has been a problem for me. There is one person at Coachman who will remain nameless that is easily upset and I'm not always the most tactful and shy of complainers. I would still buy another but will be getting rid of this one within the next two years. Coachman in my opinion are still the absolute best quality mass produced caravan and I'm sure that Jim Hibbs and the team would be the first to admit that no product is perfect all of the time.

The work will be done locally by my usual workshop. I wouldn't trust a dealer as far as I could throw them with working on any van.

 

[woodsieboy]

Do I take it that Coachman will allow you to have your van repaired under warranty by your usual local workshop. We have a mobile service engineer who did our last van and was excellent, he has said he can service our Coachman as is NCC approved, like you I have misgivings about dealers, when it comes to servicing, our last van needed a new wheel bearing whenever the dealer serviced it, and according to our mobile man it was because the dealer had overtightened the hub nuts on the previous service.

 

[Martin24]

Yes completely okay with Coachman, indeed they have a good working relationship with each other and are only 10 minutes from the factory

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Woodsie.

It seems the water is a little muddy, You need to clarify with Coachman who they want to do the work. If they insist it musty be the supplying dealer then you have a right to choose whether to have it done as supplier warranty (SoGA) or as manufactures guarantee. Ther coudl be a good reason to go for SoGA

There is an oft forgotten element in the SoGA legislation that you might find of interest. the following web site has this to say:-

http://whatconsumer.co.uk/returning-damaged-or-faulty-goods/
"The retailer’s obligations
If there is an obvious fault with the item ......... and it has not been caused by wear and tear or misuse, your first port of call must be the shop you bought it from. They have the responsibility to put the matter right, and should not evade this responsibility by referring you to the manufacturer in the context of a guarantee or warranty.

In the first instance and if considered appropriate, the seller must offer to at least repair the goods. They must do this within reasonable time, at no additional cost to you and without causing any significant inconvenience. If any inconvenience is caused you should be given a replacement item on a ‘like for like’ basis (and not simply the cheapest and most basic model)."

There are two key sentences here, The first is
"They have the responsibility to put the matter right, and should not evade this responsibility by referring you to the manufacturer in the context of a guarantee or warranty"

In other words, The seller is legally obliged under SoGA to effect repairs/replacement if it is faulty, and here it seems that the manufacture has accepted there is a fault if they are telling you to take to your dealer, so the dealer would have trouble wriggling out of the repair.

And the second key sentence is "They must do this within reasonable time, at no additional cost to you and without causing any significant inconvenience."

The dealer must either make arrangements to collect it, or ensure you are not out of pocket if you deliver it and collect it from them. Time fuel and if necessary accommodation.

The basis of this is that it is the fault of the supplier if they have supplied faulty goods, Its not your fault, and so why should you be inconvenienced or put to expense to have faulty goods rectified or replaced, its not your fault the goods are faulty is it?.

The above only applies to SoGA, and not the manufactures guarantee. so this is once scenario where SoGA may actually work better than the Manufactures guarantee.

I do suggest you get a professional legal opinion regarding your best course of action.

 

[redleader]

Hi Keith, you are ahead of me as I still have not heard anything from Ropers at Catterick, not the supplying dealer but a Coachman dealership. This was part of the reason I bought it from Glossop as their special edition Platinum, on the condition warrantee work could be done more locally. So far I have had the sink, door lock, electric fire heating thermostat replaced and the rear tail light fixed without issue.
I always prefer the softly but firm approach rather than going in with all guns blazing, and so I will give them a little longer to respond. I believe that Ropers have mailed a guy called Trevor Baxter at Coachman to see the best way to proceed. It is complex, because I agree the warrantee is with the supplying dealer but Glossop have an arrangement with a number of dealerships, I suppose so they sell more special edition models. Coachman do have a responsibility as the caravan manufacturer and the installer of the shower tower and I do believe in my case its been an installation problem. I think that possibly an under the shower tray support has been missed. Plas-Tech, the designer and supplyer of the shower tower also have a responsibility if there is a design issue.
I will send Ropers a reminder e-mail, and report back findings. I have heard of people taking their vans back to Coachman for more involved warrantee work, panel replacement etc, so I might enquire if this is an option, because the removal of a shower is not something I would trust a local dealership with, although I understand that Plas-Tech do have a mobile team that do warrantee and repair work....

 

[redleader]

Just had a quick look in the Coachman service manual:
"The cost of towing or moving the caravan by any means to and from the place of repair is the responsibility of the owner."
"The dealer from who you purchased your caravan is liable for warranty repairs"
"Any other Approved Dealer may carry out work on a caravan at his own conenience and discretion but is not obliged to do so."
"For major repairs caravans may be returned to the Coachman Aftercare Repair Centre".
I'll go see if any reply yet....

 

[redleader]

Had a quick reply from Ropers to say that Coachman have forwarded the photos to the "Shower tray specialists" so I take it that will be Plas-Tech for comment. In my case the shower tray is split, so will have to be replaced. I will keep updated with developments....
Cheers
Don

 

[woodsieboy]

Hello all,
Latest reply from Paul Stubbs at Coachman asking me to send detailed pictures,to assess the problem, will get them off to him at the weekend

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Red Leader,
You have made a few posts which appear to be contrary to the legislation enshrined in the Sale of Goods Act.

In your post of Thu, Apr 19 2012, 8:43AM

you say "Coachman do have a responsibility as the caravan manufacturer and the installer of the shower tower and I do believe in my case its been an installation problem."

Whilst they are the installer, they have no direct automatic responsibility to the end user, as the line of legal responsibility follows the financial transaction. Thus your seller has the legal responsibility, and with caravans that will be a dealer not a manufacturer.

The only legal responsibility the manufacture may have with the end user is through the terms and conditions of the manufactures Guarantee - which can never diminish the the buyers legal rights.

In your post of Thu, Apr 19 2012, 8:55AM

You quote from the Coachman owners manual "The cost of towing or moving the caravan by any means to and from the place of repair is the responsibility of the owner."

This quote ONLY refers to repairs undertaken through the manufacturers guarantee which is a separate and entirely different contract to the sellers warranty. The manufacture cannot over-rule the customer's rights under SoGA, that is illegal.