Confused about tow car weight!!!

[Capturman]

Hi all. My first post and I hope I can get the information I need.
We've taken delivery of a new Elddis Xplore 304 this week and although Renault Captur 1.5 pulls it easily I'm having a nightmare reversing the van into an impossibility tight driveway at home.
I'm now totally confused over different info on various websites regarding whether or not adding a much needed motor mover would take me over the legal/safe weight limit.
The caravan weighs 886kg and the car has a kerb weight of 1170kgs but the handbook states the max braked towing limit is 900.
Should I be aiming to keep under the 900kg or 85% of the 1170kg kerb weight?
If it's the latter then a mover would stop me burning out the clutch as the driveway is narrow, curved and has an incline which means I couldn't unhitch and push it up manually.
I'm pretty confident reversing but at the end of a tight cul-de-sac so a mover would solve the issue - IF I'd still be legal.
Sorry for the long winded 1st post but hoping someone can put me straight.
Regards to all and thanks in advance!

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

If your handbook says max braked tow weight is 900 kg then that is your limit. No ifs, no buts unfortunately. Also is your van 886 kg the MIRO (Mass In Running Order) ie no payload, or is it MTPLM (Max Technical Permissible Laden Weight) ie the max fully loaded weight?

 

[Capturman]

Thanks for an instant reply Woodlandscamper.
The caravan specs are:
Mass in running order = 886kgs
Plated MTPLM = 1043 kgs
Maximum MTPLM = 1100 kgs.
I'd expect a mover to add approx 30 kgs?
So having one would solve a nightmare but if I'm not legal then hopefully practice will mean I'll not be replacing the clutch too soon.
Thanks again

 

[Hutch]

Robert, Fully agree with WC about weights. Max braked it the limit , But check out this site. And select your exact models.

http://www.towcar.info/outfitmatch.php.
this is showning your car and van are a good match., but it is a Dutch website. Recheck your Braked max tow weight from your hand book or a dealer. Or of course Google.
Another option , might be to see if ou can get the caravan weight plate uprated to allow for a motor mover.
My thought are you will be getting another car.
Good luck.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Capturman.

The legal weight limit for a trailer is set by the car manufacture and in your case seems to be 900kg. The 85% is only a very rough guideline, and has no legal enforcement power.

But please read on, because your situation is extremely marginal, and may already be illegal because of the way Renault sometimes quote towing weights.

From the outset the caravan is so close to the car limits, even when empty! As soon as you add any realistic payload, you will very very quickly start to exceed the cars towed weight capacity, and that's before you have even checked for the a complication in the way Renault sometimes limits maximum towed weights to only when the car has no luggage or passengers!

The way to check is to find the cars weight plate which will contain the cars GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight) and a larger value for the GTW Gross Train Weight. The numerical difference between these values is the largest towed weight the car can pull when the car is fully loaded to its maximum weight. This might be much less than 900kg quoted as the maximum, in which case you definitely have a problem, because I suspect your caravan will be over weight even when empty, and you have anything other and above just the driver in the car.

Do not trust any of the tow matching services, unless you can verify that ALL the details about your car and caravan (Make Model Year Engine size fuels and power and Trim levels) are perfectly identical IN ALL DETAILS.

 

[Capturman]

Thanks for your comments.
This is why I've found the whole weight issue so confusing as various websites have given 'good match' as an answer and different info on the Capturs towing weight.
I'll have a search for the plate you mentioned and check back.
We did intend travelling with the van empty when we have oir first outing next week and changing the car isnt really an option at this time.
Thanks again for helping, very much appreciated.

 

[LizziePope]

Hi Capturman! Thanks for posting and welcome to the Practical Caravan forum.

It looks like you've already received some sound advice which is great news. Our video on outfit-matching might help?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Thanks for your comments.
This is why I've found the whole weight issue so confusing as various websites have given 'good match' as an answer and different info on the Capturs towing weight.
I'll have a search for the plate you mentioned and check back.
We did intend travelling with the van empty when we have oir first outing next week and changing the car isnt really an option at this time.
Thanks again for helping, very much appreciated.

Hello again Capturman,

I woke up early and did some research on the Renault web site. The Capture brochure is more revealing than many as it includes all the weight information. As I suspected Renault have used their weight enhancement trick, but the slightly better news is, the figure of 900kg is the difference between GTW - GVW, and is the maximum towed weight when the car is also fully loaded.

What this means is you may have some flexibility, but it's still exceptionally tight. It seems Renault have set the Maximum Braked Towed Weight at 1200kg for all models, but this is only possible with only the driver in the car and no luggage or passengers, a rather impractical situation for a family caravan holiday, but it does mean that the 300kg difference can be shared between car and caravan. The controlling factor is the cars Gross Train Weight which must not be exceeded. However, there is still a concern about suitability of the outfit because of the fact the trailer in question is a caravan:

When car manufacturer's work out maximum towed weights, it's based on an ideal trailer, small and compact and ideally trimmed for nose load. The problem is that caravans are not ideal, in fact they're about as far from ideal as you can get, and apart from the physical weight, their size and shape means they're far more susceptible to wind resistance, and aerodynamic influences such as vehicle bow waves. Consequentially, it is always wise to keep any trailer as small and as light weight as possible. The UK caravan industry recognises this and have offered the 85% of unladen Weight as guidance, but the guidance does not guarantee a good match nor the safety of the match, that is down to good management of several other factors.

Based on the 85% guidance, the capture's ULW is dependent on which model you have but will be somewhere between 1109 & 1204kg. This gives a guided caravan MTPLM of between 942 & 1023kg, which does suggest you are right on the limit.

In all honesty, I would not recommend your outfit for a novice tower, I'd be less concerned for a more experienced tower. I don't think you have enough tow car capacity to facilitate the additional Weight of a mover. All I can suggest is carry on with the outfit - carefully, gain more experience, and when it's time to change the car, look for a more capable one with more towed weight capacity.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi all.
I do wish newbies would do some research, before rushing out to spend money on a new van.
this problem comes up time and again. the simple fact is not all cars will tow all vans and a great deal of research is needed well beforehand. one of the growing problems is the new breed of car so called crossovers is that they really don't crossover very much. they look big and beefy but are in fact small lightweight vehicles a sort sheep in wolves clothing.

Renault have always had a strange way of calculating tow weights which can make matters worse, having said that the Xplore 304 is a small van not the lightest due to the trim level but still a van that is advertised as being one one that can be towed by a small car.

I am afraid there is no simple answer to this the OP will have to check all the data and get the unit weighed on a weighbridge do all the maths and see if the unit is legal or not, he is sailing very close to the wind but may be ok if all the variations check out.

a mover will add about 35kg to the weight of the van so that would just reduce the user payload as the MIRO and MTPLM would stay the same. dont forget the tow load is not the same as trailer weight. in many case one can adjust the load between car and van. to get it right also don't forget the nose weight this is carried by the car and not towed so can be deducted from the caravan/trailer weight.

from the figures supplied so far the whole thing is gong to be very close, to the limit somewhere but adding a mover should not complicate anything if the user payload is reduced. and a mover is more of a benefit than a bit of extra luggage. even on a small light van.

 

[Capturman]

Wow! Can't tell you how much I appreciate the time and trouble you've all gone to - truly amazing!
I did do a lot of research before buying the van but it's the amount of conflicting information that's now causing the issue I've got.
Checked the manufacturer plate on the car today and the difference is exactly 900kgs between the two weights.
Looks like a bigger car is needed soon or lots of practice getting up the drive as I hadn't even considered the need for a mover before buying the van.
Thanks again to each of you who gave advice on this subject.

 

[Mel]

Hi. You may not know that you can get a motor mover that fits to the jockey wheel. They are undoubtedly lighter than usual motor movers ( one website said 15kg). But:
They get mixed reviews
Your weight margin is tight so even 15kg may be too much
The incline of your drive may be too steep.

If it worked for you though it would be considerably cheaper than a new tow car or clutch.
More research for you I'm afraid.!
Mel

P.s. It just occurred to me that as they fit to a jockey wheel and your issue is at home, you could keep the motorised jockey wheel at home and just swap it on when you arrived.
P.p.s storage is probably not any more expensive than a conventional motor mover.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I'm sorry if this all comes across a negatives, but I must comment on Mels suggestion.

The very first caravan movers were basically a wheelchair motor attached to the jockey wheel post, and whilst they certainly could move caravans, they had some rather important limitations.

There is no doubt that the best of these had plenty of power and were a boon to caravan dealers as one person could move caravans around the yard with relative ease, even twin axles caravans became a one man job. In fact its only recently that one of the original designs have stopped making them, because the guy has retired.

But having power is only side of the problem, the other is how to get that power down onto the ground. Basically its about how much downward pressure is applied through the driving wheel. Anyone who has moved a caravan by hand will probably have found that their 75kg weight can move a big caravan on the flat, but as soon as you hit an incline, the problems can really start. Its hard enough moving a caravan up an incline, but it can be even harder to stop it coming down, and its all to do with how much grip you can generate with your feet and the ground, and its exactly the same process for all types of mover.

The A frame movers like the one Mel is suggesting, only have their own weight, plus the nose load. Broadly speaking that is the same amount of grip as a grown man would have. By comparison the axle based movers have the bulk of the caravans own weight forcing the driving wheels into the ground, so these usually have no problems driving and stopping the caravan.

Will an A frame move work for you? Well if you feel unsure about your grip moving your caravan by hand on the slope then consider that an A frame mover will have the same issues.

 

[JamesH]

I used to have a motor mover that fitted on the A frame but it had its limitations one of which was getting the van up the kerb and then up a very slight slope. I overcame this problem by using ramps, one for each wheel. I also had to construct a platform which extended out from the front of the mover which I could stand on to get extra grip.
It looks as if you will not be able to fit a mover that drives the caravan wheels so the only options I can see available to you are (a) a tractor type mover or (b) a front of car tow ball.
I think you are between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Capturman]

Thanks again to all who've taken the time to reply.
I've already looked into a front towball but both Renault dealer and garage where my towbar was fitted both said not advisable.
The towhitch movers were also a possibility but seem to get more negative comments than positive - have watched several YouTube videos and not really impressed I'm afraid.
As I said earlier we're off on our maiden voyage next week so we'll see how I do on reversing back into the drive this time.
I'm not a complete novice but it's been 5 years since we had a caravan and I'd forgotten what a burning clutch smelled like!
Love the Captur and the new caravan but need to start saving again for a bigger car me thinks.
I'll let you know how it goes next week!

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

As I said earlier we're off on our maiden voyage next week so we'll see how I do on reversing back into the drive this time.

Don't forget, if needed, you can unhitch the van from the car, swing the van around an angle, and connect the car again to do the push up the slope.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

Wow! Can't tell you how much I appreciate the time and trouble you've all gone to - truly amazing!
I did do a lot of research before buying the van but it's the amount of conflicting information that's now causing the issue I've got.
Checked the manufacturer plate on the car today and the difference is exactly 900kgs between the two weights.
Looks like a bigger car is needed soon or lots of practice getting up the drive as I hadn't even considered the need for a mover before buying the van.
Thanks again to each of you who gave advice on this subject.

hi. Capturman.

sorry if I sounded unsympathetic, but we get a few posts a month with the same scenario. during the spring when it seems everyone is out buying a caravan for the summer holidays there is about 1 or two a week it seems like.

the point I was making is. a first calculation of the vehicles tow capacity [not 100% but a good ballpark figure] by deducting the vehicles max weight from the vehicles gross train weight, would have given a figure of 900kg [as above] this is the max tow weight the car can tow, then by adding the weight of the maximum tow bar nose load to that figure would give a weight the car [could legally tow].
then by looking at the caravans weight plate both MIRO and MTPLM. [886/1043 kg] you would have seen how incredibly close things were going to be even with the van empty. as usually the MIRO does not include such things a gas bottles. .batteries. EHU cables. waste and water containers. and all the sundries required to make the van work as this then eats into the user payload and gets you closer to the MTPLM.

if you decided to go ahead anyway once you knew this is up to you. the after thought of possibly having to have a mover to park the van [which adds another 35kg to the van weight] was also an oversight which should have been included in the research.

it is not surprising to the most experienced of us that this apparent problem keeps appearing though as the new breed of cars are really not designed to tow caravans, as the low tow load of these cars [under 1000kg] puts most vans out of the tow range of these vehicles.

the only way to be sure a car will tow your chosen van is research. then a look at possible scenarios and then more research. yet people keep getting caught out. it is not that some of us are unsympathetic just a feeling of "oh another one" you may get a sympathetic ear from some members but not unfortunately not all.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Wow! Can't tell you how much I appreciate the time and trouble you've all gone to - truly amazing!
I did do a lot of research before buying the van but it's the amount of conflicting information that's now causing the issue I've got.
Checked the manufacturer plate on the car today and the difference is exactly 900kgs between the two weights.
Looks like a bigger car is needed soon or lots of practice getting up the drive as I hadn't even considered the need for a mover before buying the van.
Thanks again to each of you who gave advice on this subject.

hi. Capturman.

sorry if I sounded unsympathetic, but we get a few posts a month with the same scenario. during the spring when it seems everyone is out buying a caravan for the summer holidays there is about 1 or two a week it seems like.

the point I was making is. a first calculation of the vehicles tow capacity [not 100% but a good ballpark figure] by deducting the vehicles max weight from the vehicles gross train weight, would have given a figure of 900kg [as above] this is the max tow weight the car can tow, then by adding the weight of the maximum tow bar nose load to that figure would give a weight the car [could legally tow].
then by looking at the caravans weight plate both MIRO and MTPLM. [886/1043 kg] you would have seen how incredibly close things were going to be even with the van empty. as usually the MIRO does not include such things a gas bottles. .batteries. EHU cables. waste and water containers. and all the sundries required to make the van work as this then eats into the user payload and gets you closer to the MTPLM.

if you decided to go ahead anyway once you knew this is up to you. the after thought of possibly having to have a mover to park the van [which adds another 35kg to the van weight] was also an oversight which should have been included in the research.

it is not surprising to the most experienced of us that this apparent problem keeps appearing though as the new breed of cars are really not designed to tow caravans, as the low tow load of these cars [under 1000kg] puts most vans out of the tow range of these vehicles.

the only way to be sure a car will tow your chosen van is research. then a look at possible scenarios and then more research. yet people keep getting caught out. it is not that some of us are unsympathetic just a feeling of "oh another one" you may get a sympathetic ear from some members but not unfortunately not all.

Playing Devil's Advocate, Capturman has already stated "I'm not a complete novice but it's been 5 years since we had a caravan and I'd forgotten what a burning clutch smelled like!".

If he's had a caravan before why all the problems/questions about weight now? It isn't only the smelly clutch that has been forgotten.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

to put things in perspective WC I have towed caravans and other trailers for over 50 years and never had a burning clutch. ok so that's just me. but I just cannot understand why people go rush out and buy a new van while not understanding the needs and dynamics of the motor they are going to tow it with. let alone how and where they are going to use and store it.
makes no sense to me. all the information required is out there.
for example when we changed back to a tourer from the motorhome, I started with a list of requirements. two pages full and by the time I got through it only two vans were suitable. we opted for the new one simply because it was new.
it was a bit smaller than we wanted but just got the awning to double it's size, I had no intention of changing the car, or putting it anywhere else other than in my garage.

if you do enough research the pitfalls can be avoided. and you must always remember that caravanning is always going to be a compromise one way or the other.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Colin,
I understand your last comment, and agree in principle, but like you I have towed many different types of trailers behind cars and vans, and specialist articulated exhibition trailers. At the outset each one was a new experience ,, and with the best will in the world no amount of research could fully prepare you for the new challenges each type of outfit brought. The collective experience gained with each rig certainty helped with any new combination. From our relatively wide experiences we have the benefit of drawing it when looking at what contributors have or are proposing, but think back, it wouldn't have always been as clear to us.

Again our experience's have meant we have also gained quite a lot of specialised knowledge on the subject of towing, I'd suggest probably more than most novice towers would even conceive was even there, which places us in a better position to understand the detailed intricacies of towing regulations and guidance, and how to apply it to matching, especially when close to limits.

When you look around for information about matching, there are so many different takes on the subject, and we also know that the place you would think should be a source of sound information - the Government Portal, is not accurate, and the specialist matching sites have some inaccuracies, is it any wonder that novices can get confused?

This is one area where the internet is its own worst enemy, it's so easy for people to post erroneous information, and of course there are those who dangerous people deliberately spread disinformation.

What I think surprise's most, is how much there is to learn about towing, and towing caravans in particular, not just the legalities, but the practicalities and how to do it safety. After all we are so used to driving cars today that are so much more advanced in safety, then we virtually double the mass and suddenly the car is now being asked to do something that is so much closer to its safety limits, you have to change so much.

I do wish there was a simpler way of ensuring caravanner's new and stalwarts could access highly reliable information and advice, so they can prepare as much as possible and hopefully preventing poor matching, but even if the info is there you can't account for those that won't read it.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

yes Prof I agree with all that, but some of the question asked, are beyond belief. like just bought a new [£20k] 6 mtr van will my mini tow it ok, :woohoo: or just taken delivery of the new van and it wont fit on the drive. anyone know of a storage facility in my area. . yeah ok .

when we started, there wasn't any information [just from family and friends] most of it wrong. there wasn't any, [or very little] legislation about towing. except if it weighed a certain amount you were limited to 50mph [not that it mattered] as there were few good roads and motorways to tow on.
the average caravan could be towed by the average car. but most used a Volvo. :lol: :lol: :lol: .

yeah good old days, but the fact remains modern day caravanning is very complex anyone who rushes into it with their eyes shut deserve what they get. some of the information is incorrect this is true but most of it isn't.

a few simple calculations a measuring tape and a bit of thought will eradicate most of the issues. if they cant or won't do that then there is little sympathy from this quarter.

 

[Parksy]

There are some good and informative replies on this subject and the lack of a sympathetic response is perfectly understandable.
Compared to most I'm a relative newcomer to caravanning, I bought my first tourer in 1999.
There was no easy internet access back then and I enterd into the world of caravanning with very little knowledge and no real idea about caravan weights.
I made mstakes, my towcar wasn't really up to the job, I bought one or two caravans that were fit for the scrapheap and there was little information about real - time caravanning except for what could be gleaned from reading Practical Caravanning magazine.
I doubt if there are many on here who haven't made mistakes in the past now and then, most of us keep these errors to ourselves and quietly learn from them, and I should imagine that the OP realises that he has slipped up without us who are armed with caravan know how rubbing salt into the wound.
I wish that everyone who considers touring caravan ownership would ask a few basic questions on here or similar websites before they go ahead, or even as Colin suggests, they would at least use a tape measure to check basic dimensions but I won't hold my breath waiting for it to happen

 

[Hutch]

I have a lot of sympathy for some of the newcomers, who have bought a caravan and then have realised that caravanning is not as straight forward as expected. How many of us have been asked by a dealer when looking at a caravan as to what we are going to pull it with. ? Many folk have gone from camping, with everything in the back of the car, to maybe towing atrailer with everything in it, the next move is to the caravan, and then bang, in comes the realisation of towing weights, and driving licence.
Carry on people ask away , the forum is here to help, not ridicule.
Hutch.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

Carry on people ask away , the forum is here to help, not ridicule.
Hutch.

hi Hutch,
of course it is that is mostly the problem people don't ask enough question before leaping in.

but I'm sorry mate, there is a world of difference, between
"I am thinking of buying this van. will it be suitable" and
"I have bought this van. will it be suitable". the former is being rightly cautious the latter is just an idiot.

I will now retire from this subject. we can do it all again next week when the next one comes along.

 

[pitpony]

I have a lot of sympathy for some of the newcomers, who have bought a caravan and then have realised that caravanning is not as straight forward as expected. How many of us have been asked by a dealer when looking at a caravan as to what we are going to pull it with. ? Many folk have gone from camping, with everything in the back of the car, to maybe towing atrailer with everything in it, the next move is to the caravan, and then bang, in comes the realisation of towing weights, and driving licence.
Carry on people ask away , the forum is here to help, not ridicule.
Hutch.

Hutch,
I go along with you, Carry on asking, I wonder how many times the good folk that work in the Citizens advice get asked all those questions that come up on a daily basis, like can you tell me what my tow car is capable of towing,

 

[Hutch]

Just to throw another little bit into this, the number of people that tow caravans in France. Yes a lot of people can tow at 130 KPH. But only if your cars gross train weight is lower than 3500 kg.
Any car that has a gross train weight over 3500kg is limited to 90 kpm. . Even if you are below that weight.ie a small trailer, or a trailer tent, ,( loved it when we borrowed one)
. Most large cars , Mondeos , Santa Fe's C5's. Are not allowed to exceed these speed limit when towing, but i get passed by many , caravans. Only to pass them at the toll gates through my Sanef tolling tag. Hutch.