Correct Noseweight - Advice Please !

[JohnnyV]

Hi,

I know that this isn't an exact science but I am sure that many of you have had experience that can help me.

I am trying to find out what I should have as the correct Noseweight on our New Lunar Delta TL T/A :

The Lunar Handbook says "Minimum of 50kg or More, & Heavier for Twin Axles"

My car is a Jeep Grand Cherokee and the handbook says "No less than 7% & No more than 10% of the Trailer Load" - if this means the MTPLM then with a 1,790kg MTPLM the two percentages work out at 125.3kg & 179kg - however the max hitch load is 140kg!

The Jeep has a Kerbweight of 2,210kg and a Towing limit of 3,500kg, so no problem in actually towing as this provides an 81% match - its just I am concerned as to what noseweight I should have - I was going to try about 100kg but it looks as though Jeep recommend about 130kg?

I notice that the Static load on the Jockey Wheel is 150kg so no problem there.

Confused of Daventry looking for advice

Many thanks

Jon

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Jonathan,

All trailers need to have some nose weight to assist with towing and stability. How much is dependant on a lot of different factors, but in general the higher the better.

Other factors that you must treat carefully include the loading of the caravan. Where possible keep the heaviest items as close to axles as possible. This helps to reduce the the yawing moments. It should go without saying that tyres and suspension and all equipment should be kept in good condition. Not least when towing, remember you have a physically large outfit, and it will change the driving characteristics of the solo car.

In most cases a caravan tows better with a nose load close to the maximum permitted for the car or the caravan - which ever is lower. BUT - read on..

I am surprised at the information about the Lunar regarding its nose load, as most UK caravans have an absolute upper limit of 100Kg set by the chassis manufacture. Do recheck with Lunar what the upper limit is. Twin axles do tend to need a bit more so the nose remains with positive down force when riding humps. Too little and you will feel the caravan try to lift and sink the towbar. This can be quite disconcerting for some people.

The vast majority of saloon cars have a nose load limit of only 75Kg, and few people report problems at that sort of level, so I am going to suggest you consider aiming for 75Kg. If this proves to be too twitchy you do have some capacity to go higher.

As for measuring the nose load, it has to be done very carefully with TA's. As for SA's it has to be done on level ground, as any slope will affect the reading. When the measurement is taken, the nose of the caravan should be at exactly the same height from the ground as when it is hitched to the car. Again any changes to the height will affect the reading.

The figures Jeep give for nose load calculations are a guideline only.

 

[JohnnyV]

Many thanks John L - I must admit that I was surprised that Lunar were not more specific by model - I think your advice is probably sound, if I start at 75kg and work between that and a max of 100kg.

You will appreciate that as a relative newbie with this being the first T/A that I have towed the Jeep's handbook figures did cause some confusion!

I did tow it empty for about 80 miles from the dealers when I picked it up, and on both the Motorway and ordinary roads I had no sway or real pitching - but I have no idea what weight was on the hitch.

I also take your point about about measuring at a level - understand this one - fortunately the guage that I have bought is exactly the same height as my ball (I will be treading carefully when using however as I have read some horror stories).

Many thanks

Jon

 

[JohnnyV]

Hi - just an update.

Did what I perhaps should have done in the first place - Rang Lunar, they have advised 87kg !

Thanks again

Jon

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Jonathan,

I have just picked up on a point you made, you say you are new to towing. Perhaps I am making the wrong assumption here so if i am please forgive me, but does this mean you passed your driving test after Jan 1997?

If so different rules apply about what you can tow and it is all down to your driving licence categories.

If you are post 1997, then you were only approved for the relevant Cat B vehicles and are only allowed to tow an outfit of combined gross permitted weight of 3500Kg, and the trailers MTPLM must not exceed the kerbweight of the tow vehicle. If so you are not permitted to tow your caravan with your Jeep.

If you wish to tow your outfit you must take the extension trailer test which on successful completion gives you cat B+E.

If you passed your test before Jan 1997, then you are automatically approved for B+E.

Please check your licence.

 

[TD42]

another point is do not trust the reading from a noseweight gauge as the are usualy inaccurate if you can place the gauge ON bathroom scales then you can compair & mark the guage accordingly

mine is 12kg out

 

[Steve L]

Hi Johnathon.

Just so you don't get the wrong end of the stick, John L commented that nose weight is "the heavyer the better". One does have to treat that with a modacome of common sense though.

Your Jeep might very well cope with 130kgs as a nose weight, but at that level, the drag on the hitch slider bearings might mean that the brakes are reluctant to activate and so you could feel as if the van slam's into the car before the brakes work. John did redeem him self by recommending a more logical weight of 75Kgs which as he correctly states is generally the norm for us car drivers.

Both Lunar and Chrysler are naughty for not being specific as when you get checked by VOSA at an inspection site, they already have specific guidelines of weight to work with and you can get prosecuted for excessive nose weight, or poor weight distribution as they call it.

Tony has a good point too, the nose weight guages on the market are only rough guides and are not calibrated to ISO standards, so you should not rely 100% on the figures. Using a thick piece of ply on bathroom scales which are zero'd with the ply on, then placed under the jockey wheel and the weight read with the hitch at the same height off the ground as the hook on the Jeep will give a far more accurate reading.

I tow an Abbey 540 freestyle with my 1998 Laguna est and while the outfit is right on top tow capacity for the car, it does tow ok. But I struggle to get down to 75Kgs nose weight, which is the max stated for the tow bar. Being a rear fixed bed layout, I thought we would have to be carefull not to overload the cavernous bed locker, but how wrong we were. I have to travel with that locker full and the front bench lockers lightly loaded and the gass locker empty apart from the two 7kg gas bottles to get down to that weight. The outfit tows stable at that but to me doesn't look loaded right inside.

One legal piont that you have to respect and given that both your caravan and car manufacturers are short on fact is that, you must take the lower figure of the nose weight of the caravan or the towbar hitch weight of the car as your bench mark for maximum hitch weight for the outfit. For example if the caravan has a hitch weight max of 80Kgs and the Jeep has a hitch load of 130Kgs, you have to work with the 80Kgs as your hitch weight.

If it were me, I'd write to both manufacturers asking them to confirm in writing what their loadings are for your specific vehicles. That way you have colatable evidence of your intent to comply with regulations, should you need it at a later date.

Steve L.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Steve and Jonathon,

Steve taking your first point. You raise a valid issue regarding the ability of the trailer chassis to cope with the high nose weights. Whilst I did not actually say it, it was in mind when I referred to the lack of information Lunar has supplied, and when I suggested aiming for only 75Kg.

It has however made me think again regarding my general advice about nose loading. It does not invalidate what I have previously written, but it may help to clarify the issue for future contributions:-

"Nose load should be heavy enough to aid stable towing, but must not exceed the tow vehicle or trailer manufactures stated limits whichever is lower."

It did not help Jonathon when he had either incomplete or ambiguous information, and it was right that he contacted Lunar for clarification. Intrstingly they have come back with a rather specific figure of 87Kg.

I am intrigued by your statement that VOSA "already have specific guidelines of weight to work with and you can get prosecuted for excessive nose weight, or poor weight distribution as they call it." This begs the question, does VOSA have a different rule book? On what grounds can a prosecution for excess nose weight alone be pursued if the nose weight is within the manufacturers stated limits? Simply it can't! You cannot prosecute something that is compliant.

There would have to be other factors that gave the officers reason to believe that the outfit was unsafe.

Again I was perhaps lax in not pointing out that nose weight gauges have a poor reputation for accuracy, but then again when did you last have you bathroom scales 'ISO calibrated'! Despite that I do agree that bathroom scales are probably more believable than some bespoke nose weight gauges. - and you can relatively easily check the scales against known masses - such as a new bag of potting compost or play sand etc.

Jonathon did contact lunar, but he should not have needed to. I believe manufactures of both car tow hitches and caravans ought to have clear max permitted loads permanently affixed to the relevant vehicles. - some already do.

 

[Steve L]

Hi John.

I quite agree that it is high time that the vehicle and trailer manufacturers cut out the guess work and put clear defined specifications to all their products.

Bathroom scale are not a calibrated item as such, but arguably more accurate than most noseweight guages, also the readability is easier too.

The boys at VOSA do have very specific info regarding all tow vehicle capacities and tow bar weights. After all it is their evidence that the police rely upon when they bring prosecutions.

In Jonathon's case, 87Kgs is well within the tow hitch loading of his Jeep, providing that the tow bar manufacturer has not specified a lower limit for the tow bar they have manufactured.

Regards.

Steve L.

 

[JohnnyV]

Hi,

Sorry for not getting back to you earlier (have not been on my PC) - Firstly John L - No problem I am afraid I passed my test about 36 years ago and whilst I am new to caravanning (only re-visited it with my daughters van last year), I am not new to towing, having towed car recovery trailers and driven Trucks.

I think that you are all correct - it seems to me that if you are going to lesgislate, how heavy, what hitch weight, etc. then really there should be very clear and laid down guidlines - all manufacturers should state Noseweight limits along with the MIRO & MPTLM. Likewise all Car manufacturers should state a figure for their vehicle and not vague percentages.

I would say how can anyone prosecute another when the rules are not clearly laid down.

Thanks for all the advice though - I will start with the noseweight quoted by Lunar and will definately stay under the 100kg barrier.

One question - Why don't manufacturers build a weight guage into hitch or jockey wheel - it would save all this faffing about with scales ?

Thanks again

Jon

 

[SBS]

"One question - Why don't manufacturers build a weight guage into hitch or jockey wheel - it would save all this faffing about with scales ?"

Both Alko and BPW can supply a JW with a built in gauge. However, you do have to make a calculation to allow for the different leverage from JW to hitch.

Mike

 

[Steve L]

Trust me on this one, the fuzz will try to prosecute despite a lack of clarity. I had a 3500Kg truck towing a trailer of 2000Kgs gross weight but the unladen weight of the trailer was under 1000Kgs. While I needed a tachograph,I did not need an operators license. I was stopped and checked at least once a month and even an atempt at prosecution was made. Eventually I had to get DVLA to issue a clarification letter stating I did not require an operators license. Then of coarse the wooden tops got shirty as I knew the law better than them.

Jockey wheels are available with weight guages, but after catching them on the ferry ramps a few times, how accurate do you realy think they'll be?

What I've done is use bathroom scales and then use the nose weight guage and make note of the error.

Steve L.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Trust me on this one, the fuzz will try to prosecute despite a lack of clarity. I had a 3500Kg truck towing a trailer of 2000Kgs gross weight but the unladen weight of the trailer was under 1000Kgs. While I needed a tachograph,I did not need an operators license. I was stopped and checked at least once a month and even an atempt at prosecution was made. Eventually I had to get DVLA to issue a clarification letter stating I did not require an operators license. Then of coarse the wooden tops got shirty as I knew the law better than them.

Jockey wheels are available with weight guages, but after catching them on the ferry ramps a few times, how accurate do you realy think they'll be?

What I've done is use bathroom scales and then use the nose weight guage and make note of the error.

Steve L.

The point is Steve, that the prosecution did not take place because no offence had occurred.

If some one with less knowledge than you had gone to court the defendants lawyers should have researched the issue and found there was no case to answer. Even if the lawyers had not found it, on appeal where the evidence is more carefully researched it should have come to light then.

If no offence had been committed, then any conviction would be quashed.

I have faith in our judicial system :-{pipe delimiter}

 

[BillD.]

Caravan mfrs seem very reluctant to publish nose weights.

I realise this can vary with loading but an 'ex-works' figure would be a useful starting point.

Is it because actual nose weights are so high thses days?

I struggle to get my Sprite Alpine 2 berth down to the car specified figure of 80kg, a figure that is not untypical of your average family car.

Bill D.

 

[WilliamLX]

Hi (by the way this is not me talking to myself), I have had the same problem with my Bailey Ranger. Empty the nose weight of my caravan was higher than the 75Kg allowed for my 2006 Mondeo. Add gas and it was much heavier. I have had to resort to putting some heavy items at the back (not really the most stable loading) to bring the nose weight within requirements).

 

[BillD.]

Hi William this is William.

I try to remember to sign myself Bill D.

Glad I am not the only one with this problem, I thought that with my fairly average outfit it must be quite common.

I am upgrading to a slightly bigger Swift so expect an even bigger problem.

Bill D.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I can see no point in knowing what the ex-works nose weight is. It has no legal position and technically as soon as you add anything to the caravan it is likely to affect the nose weight, and depending on where you put the item the effect on the nose weight will be different.

There is a point to manufactures making sure the Max permitted nose weight is clearly marked on the caravan.

 

[xtrailman]

John l

One very important reason for knowing the works nose weight.

Something that can catch a newbie out, on pick up!!

The last van i bought the dealer did not know the nose weight, so on pick up i took my nose gauge and some containers of water.

 

[Lutz]

Even a newbie should spare a thought or two how to correctly prepare himself for towing. Setting the proper noseweight is just as important as knowing what kind of driving licence you need.

Noseweight, just like kerbweight, is specific to each individual caravan/car so supplying such data involves a lot of extra work fot the manufacturer as he would have to weigh each product as it comes off the line. Even then there can be variances. A caravan can weigh up to 15kg more on a wet day, not because of damp but because the insulation absorbs humidity.

 

[xtrailman]

lutz

A lot of people do not know what nose weight is, and not just newbies. i had a neighbour who had not a clue what is nose weight was, nor did he bother to increase his tyre pressures.

he glibly told me that he just put it on the back of the car, and if it looked ok then that was it, told me not to wittle.

and he has never had a problem!

 

[Lutz]

Anyone who has not done his homework before towing a caravan is not going to take any notice of noseweight even if the manufacturer were to supply the information.

I know, there are people who buy a caravan without even knowing whether it's legal in combination with their towcar, but they can only be helped if the dealer points them in the right direction.

I have no sympathy for people with such a thoughtless attitude. It's like buying a car without knowing whether you need to put diesel or petrol into the tank.

 

[BillD.]

My point about ex-works nose weight is that it is at least a starting point to enable you to make some reasoned judgement about a van, alongside other critical info on weights etc. I remember being quite shocked when I first measured my van noseweight.

Or is it the case that manufacturers design the van noseweight on the 7% 'rule' As nose weight is a function of centres of gravity any weight of van could be designed with a whole range of noseweights. Anyone know the answer?

Bill D.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Bill,

The nose weight of any trailer is caused by the mass of the whole caravan acting through its centre of gravity relative to the main axle, and the distance between the main axle and the hitch.

Because of this confluence of factors, the actual nose weight of a caravan bears no relationship to the actual whole weight or size of the caravan.

It is perfectly possible to have the largest caravan with an very low nose weight, and equally possible for the smallest caravan to have a high nose weight. So the ex-works value tells you nothing of any use about the caravan.

It is very rare that a caravan will ever be towed in its ex-works condition, and as soon as you add any load to the caravan it will affect the nose load unless the load is placed directly above the axle.

As the driver of an outfit, you are totally responsible for ensuring the combination is road legal. So even with a brand new ex-works caravan you should be checking the all the loadings on axles and hitches conform to the regulations. The only practical way of checking nose load is to measure it.

Guessing it does not cut the mustard.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello again Bill,

The nose weight of any trailer is caused by the mass of the whole caravan acting through its centre of gravity relative to the main axle, and the distance between the main axle and the hitch.

Because of this confluence of factors, the actual nose weight of a caravan bears no relationship to the actual whole weight or size of the caravan.

It is perfectly possible to have the largest caravan with an very low nose weight, and equally possible for the smallest caravan to have a high nose weight. So the ex-works value tells you nothing of any use about the caravan.

It is very rare that a caravan will ever be towed in its ex-works condition, and as soon as you add any load to the caravan it will affect the nose load unless the load is placed directly above the axle.

As the driver of an outfit, you are totally responsible for ensuring the combination is road legal. So even with a brand new ex-works caravan you should be checking the all the loadings on axles and hitches conform to the regulations. The only practical way of checking nose load is to measure it.

Guessing it does not cut the mustard.

I forgot to add that the 7% is another guideline not a rule. It is essential to maintain a positive downwards nose load and it should be high enough to support stability, but it must also be within the lowest of the manufacturers max allowances.

 

[Lutz]

Many manufacturers offer the same basic caravan with different layouts. Each layout will affect the location of the centre of gravity. Theoretically, the manufacturer should compensate for this by shifting the superstructure backwards or forwards relative to the axle, accordingly. Such specific design reduces the opportunity for cross-model standardisation of component parts.