Could i sue?

[NickinFrance]

not if the person involved was bogus they will knock on the door of the last registered keeper.

They might try & having worked for a few Bailiff & debt collecting companies (writing custom software) I know they try all sorts of tricks that are not strictly legal or 'authorised'.
They hope the word Bailiff & the fact that most of them are big ex-coppers frighten people into paying but from what has been said, the contract is between the HP company & the original 'buyer' not Yorkie.

 

[NickinFrance]

plus if it was purchased by HP from the dealer that will be two knocks on the door.

As we have no idea how Yorkie paid for the caravan that is pure supposition.

 

[Soozeeg]

Everything is supposition until Yorkie comes back and tells us more.

 

[JonnyG]

Have i got this right? A guy comes to look at a caravan which is for sale, does an hpi check and finds out hpi is still owed but does not walk away? or tell the seller its got hpi on it still? he then finds out who the HPI is owed to, is it that easy for a man on the streets to do? then decides to contact them, instead of walk away from the deal? WHY? and tells them where the van is?

As for the car related story, don't doubt what happened but the facts are questionable, the HPI company pays the company owning the vehicle, not the individual buying it, so they would buy from the dealer, and are obliged to do proper checks themselves not just use a registration number and chassis code! Its would seem fraud has taken place , unless your friend [nick] was spinning a yarn and indeed owed the money himself on said car,his visit to the solicitors would have led to the retrieval of the car if his story is true. As the dealers who sold the car where the rightful owners the HPI company has no legal rights to repossess the car, regardless of what fraud may or may not have taken place, unless that is your friend actually owed them the money and merely span a yarn to cover his loss.

 

[NickinFrance]

As for the car related story, don't doubt what happened but the facts are questionable, the HPI company pays the company owning the vehicle, not the individual buying it, so they would buy from the dealer,

No, they sent the cheque to the buyer, made payable to the dealer but there are ways to cash 3rd party cheques.

Its would seem fraud has taken place

Yes, it was fraud & apparently not an uncommon one.

As the dealers who sold the car where the rightful owners the HPI company has no legal rights to repossess the car,

No, the HP company owned the car & had every right to repossess the car'

unless that is your friend actually owed them the money and merely span a yarn to cover his loss.

He paid cash for the car out of a redundancy payment.

 

[Parksy]

Have i got this right? A guy comes to look at a caravan which is for sale, does an hpi check and finds out hpi is still owed but does not walk away? or tell the seller its got hpi on it still? he then finds out who the HPI is owed to, is it that easy for a man on the streets to do? then decides to contact them, instead of walk away from the deal? WHY? and tells them where the van is?

No Jonny, you haven't got it right.
As you will see below the o.p. stated in his post that he should have had an CRiS (caravan registration & identification scheme) check but didn't because the caravan was new. A CRiS HPI check is a check on the rightful ownership of a caravan and HPI is Hire Purchase Information.

HP is Hire Purchase, the check would reveal if there was an outstanding Hire Purchase Agreement.

To cut a long story short, Bought a NEW caravan from a repretable caravan dealer, But it was not theres to sell as it still had HP on it, I know i should have done a CRIS check on it but with it been NEW i thought it was OK, ...........

 

[Dustydog]

Have i got this right? A guy comes to look at a caravan which is for sale, does an hpi check and finds out hpi is still owed but does not walk away? or tell the seller its got hpi on it still? he then finds out who the HPI is owed to, is it that easy for a man on the streets to do? then decides to contact them, instead of walk away from the deal? WHY? and tells them where the van is?

No Jonny, you haven't got it right.
As you will see below the o.p. stated in his post that he should have had an CRiS (caravan registration & identification scheme) check but didn't because the caravan was new. A CRiS HPI check is a check on the rightful ownership of a caravan and HPI is Hire Purchase Information.

HP is Hire Purchase, the check would reveal if there was an outstanding Hire Purchase Agreement.

To cut a long story short, Bought a NEW caravan from a repretable caravan dealer, But it was not theres to sell as it still had HP on it, I know i should have done a CRIS check on it but with it been NEW i thought it was OK, ...........

Parksy
Is this correct? Whenever we have bought a new caravan the dealer has filled in the CRIS documents in front of us. Original to CRIS copy to us. Then CRIS send us their document a few weeks later through the post.

There's something definitely missing from Yorkie's story. It doesn't add up. Maybe Yorkie will give us a more acccurate exxplanation?

I also wonder if Mr Read could give an explanation exaactly how a CRIS certificate is allocated to a new caravan?

 

[JonnyG]

Sorry Nick, i have re read your original post, and Legally your response is incorrect. the HP company never ever owed that car! They are liable not your friend. The car was NEW, registered to a dealer, who never ever sold it to them or indeed the man/women being fraudulent. hpi companies also have a duty to make sure they too are buying from the legal owner in fact more so than a normal man on the streets. In this case lets assume its a BMW car, then this car will be on MR BMWs data banks showing exactly which dealership is in possession of said chassis number,Which means MR HP has not done his homework correctly remember this is a new car not a second-hand one. they dealership legally sold the car to your friend, and it was his. That is the law.!HP companies are not above the law. So I repeat from what I have read of your original post on this subject, yes fraud has been committed against the HP company but not by the dealer, not by your friend they have absolutely no standing in law to repossess a car they never ever owed.!

Hi parky, "cris"is not a legal requirement,hell my bustner is not registered with them, so I do not know what difference that would make!

my concern was the story line . man comes to see caravan does a hpi check and then gets in touch with the hpi company? without another word to the seller? not so much as a no thanks its got money owing on it.
If this has happened then yes, "Yorkie" if he bought van from a dealer is protected by law, as for sueing the storage company?
The van wasn't his anyway, how can he sue someone who has passed on a caravan to its legal owner...through legal channels

 

[colin-yorkshire1]

hi all
just to widen the topic a wee bit seeing as how many posters have and will in future buy new vans from dealers it would have been interesting to hear from swift/bailey or reeds as to how this could or could not happen without giving away any trade secrets.
for instance exactly who does own the van, up to the point were the customer pays for it. the dealer the manufacturer or some holding company and does the dealer just get commission for the sale.

whatever the arragements are if the story is true something went badly wrong here and could be a warning to other prospective buyers in the future as I said earlier this is not a simple case of repossesion from a third party

colin

 

[Parksy]

Hi parky, "cris"is not a legal requirement,hell my bustner is not registered with them, so I do not know what difference that would make!
my concern was the story line . man comes to see caravan does a hpi check and then gets in touch with the hpi company? without another word to the seller? not so much as a no thanks its got money owing on it.
If this has happened then yes, "Yorkie" if he bought van from a dealer is protected by law, as for sueing the storage company?
The van wasn't his anyway, how can he sue someone who has passed on a caravan to its legal owner...through legal channels

Your Burstner won't be CRiS registered Jonny for the simple reason that it was not manufactured by a UK manufacturer.
I will quote from the information on the CRiS website:

"All caravans manufactured since 1992 by NCC members are recorded on the CRiS database by their unique 17 digit Vehicle Identification Number (VIN). This VIN and the caravan description are recorded on a Touring Caravan Registration Document, which is sent to the caravan's registered keeper"

This means that if Yorkie's caravan is a UK built model it would have been registered. Many UK insurance companies ask for CRiS registration numbers and as Dusty Dog pointed out CRiS documents are filled in when the transaction is completed whenever a new UK caravan is sold.
This story doesn't add up, either the caravan was not UK built and Yorkie gives no indication of the make of caravan or the caravan was not new when he bought it.
If the caravan is a continental model it may have been targetted by thieves in which case Yorkie should contact his insurers.
Until Yorkie comes back with more information there's not a lot more that we can add.

 

[JonnyG]

Cheers parksy never knew that, although mine isnt registered because I could not be arsed to pay £10 for something that's not legally binding, although not knowing what was the situation with UK caravans since 1992 at the time of purchase might have swayed me.
But again surely being Cris registered does not guarantee anything? Sure it seems a more useful tool than no tool at all, but as owners change of vans, there is no legal reason for the next owner to inform of change of ownership?unlike with a car purchase?Although in the case being discussed a "new van"it does sound a strange can of worms.....

 

[Parksy]

You're quite right JG, the CRiS would have revealed problems with Yorkie's caravan if it was registered but it has no legal standing.
It's a good selling point if an owner has owned the caravan from new or has maintained the registration if it was second hand and it's better than nothing.
Something isn't right here, the o.p. has posted elsewhere on this forum today so I wonder why he hasn't revisited this 'hot topic' to shed a bit more light?

 

[Jo-AnneFairway5402010]

sounds to me like travlers have got it. it all seems a bit fishy to me. something aint right. i would go to the police.

 

[Jo-AnneFairway5402010]

could the guy that came out to buy it lied and said all this then got his mates to come and steel it?. ive never checked a brand new van with cris cos its brand new.
why was you selling it if it was brand new or have i got the story wrong?. i dont get it.

why would the guy tell the cris reg where you was?.

how did they get it from your storage?.

who is the dealer?. what have they said?.

what has your insurance said about all this because they should be fighting your corner now?.

did you pay cash?. if you paid by finance or card then surley its there property and it been stolen?

this is all very wierd

 

[Parksy]

sounds to me like travlers have got it.....

Please don't make assumptions until the true facts become known, the details provided by Yorkie are vague and unfounded inflammatory comments won't help matters and may cause offence.
Neither the supplying dealer or the storage facility will be named on this forum on the basis of the very few details provided in the original post and if the o.p. intends to take legal action we will have to await the judgement of the court.

 

[yorks]

Thank you all for your views on this nightmare of mine, Ive not said much more as im going back to see the Police tomorrow and to be honest i still dont have a clue whats happened, The storage people are being very very quite and not very helpfull at all, im begining to think that they know they have dropped a right clanger here.

 

[Soozeeg]

Back? So you've already been to the police, Yorkie? What did they say?

 

[yorks]

Civil matter not interested,

 

[JonnyG]

Civil matter not interested,

It will only become a civil matter when the police can confirm what has actually taken place.Because you are in the dark they need to confirm no crime has taken place,although for sure one has,you belongings have gone and you have no way of knowing exactly where they are.Tell the police that you need to know otherwise you have every right to state they are stolen,Police might not like this attitude,but you are entitled to their help,you just need to force them into action.

And just for reference in case any police officers disagree,short story. company went bust with my car locked in its building police said nothing could be done "civil matter" told them i had been advised to report to them i was breaking in and had brought a replacement lock that i would leave with them,as i had no way of knowing if my car was actually there,so either i report it stolen or being as they said it was a civil matter i would break the lock to see for myself.
Funny how within 30 minutes they had sorted the collection of my car from locked site. be polite but insistent.

 

[NickinFrance]

Civil matter not interested,

That's exactly what they said to my friend with the car.
If they were a reputable repossession company they would have notified the Police before removing it.

 

[smiley]

I've just been reading this topic. I'm not legal eagle enough to state what's exactly right but,
you said the police have called it a civil matter..

If this company had contacted the place where you stored your van, they surely would have had to have legal documents
originals not copies to proove in person when collecting you van from storage... Therefore your storage company were wrong in giving access to these people...

another point we are with CC on our van insurance and although it has armed guard we still have to have fitted hitch lock and wheel clamps................
If you had these attached to your van and you bought them then I would go back to the police and get someone arrested for theft of your property. Also this means that this company had break your security,,,, the storage company knowing you would have had locking mechanisms should have called you....
If there was anything of yours in that van and this copany has taken it they have stolen from you....

But I think if this was a car someone had bought the reclaiming company have to contact the current owner (you) to get keys and
give you opportunity to emove all of your possesions.. I agree with others something is not right here..

 

[Parksy]

Civil matter not interested,

What do your insurance company make of it Yorkie?

 

[NickinFrance]

If this company had contacted the place where you stored your van, they surely would have had to have legal documents originals not copies to prove in person when collecting you van from storage... Therefore your storage company were wrong in giving access to these people...

They probably had documents that looked legal & would have bullied the storage company.

... it has armed guard ...

Tell me where & I'll make sure I keep away

We still have to have fitted hitch lock and wheel clamps................
If you had these attached to your van and you bought them then I would go back to the police and get someone arrested for theft of your property.

Repossession companies are allowed to remove (in any way) these devices, it's possible that someone knowing their vehicle was about to be repossessed would fit devices to try to stop the (lawful) repossession.

If there was anything of yours in that van and this copany has taken it they have stolen from you....

They will write to (who they think is) the owner & give them the opportunity to remove any personal property.

But I think if this was a car someone had bought the reclaiming company have to contact the current owner (you) to get keys and give you opportunity to move all of your possesions..

And give the person an opportunity to hide the vehicle, don't think so.

 

[LMH]

If this company had contacted the place where you stored your van, they surely would have had to have legal documents originals not copies to prove in person when collecting you van from storage... Therefore your storage company were wrong in giving access to these people...

They probably had documents that looked legal & would have bullied the storage company.

... it has armed guard ...

Tell me where & I'll make sure I keep away

We still have to have fitted hitch lock and wheel clamps................
If you had these attached to your van and you bought them then I would go back to the police and get someone arrested for theft of your property.

Repossession companies are allowed to remove (in any way) these devices, it's possible that someone knowing their vehicle was about to be repossessed would fit devices to try to stop the (lawful) repossession.

If there was anything of yours in that van and this copany has taken it they have stolen from you....

They will write to (who they think is) the owner & give them the opportunity to remove any personal property.

But I think if this was a car someone had bought the reclaiming company have to contact the current owner (you) to get keys and give you opportunity to move all of your possesions..

And give the person an opportunity to hide the vehicle, don't think so.

You seem to have all the answers Nick, can't you swap email address and perhaps mobile numbers and help yorkie out?

Lisa

 

[NickinFrance]

You seem to have all the answers Nick, can't you swap email address and perhaps mobile numbers and help yorkie out?

Lisa, I don't know the answer to Yorkie's problem because he doesn't know the real cause of his problem.
But having:
Watched what happened to my friends car.
Employed a repossession company to recover a car for me
Written software for bailiffs that churns out very carefully worded, extremely legal looking but meaningless documents.
I have some idea how these companies work in practise.