Whilst driving north on the M5 near Exeter this week I noticed a big twin axle Bailey Senator being towed by a Mondeo Estate. Surely this can't be a safe match? Most late model twin axle vans have MIRO's of around 15-1600kg, with MTPLM's of 1750-1900kg making the van considerably heavier than the car. Having said all that it was travelling along at a resonable pace in the nearside lane quite safely.
Dangerous outfit
- Thread starter Mike_5041089
- Start date
I have a Mondeo TDCi 130 which is a superb towcar, but I wouldn't dream of towing anything like that with it. Just wait until something goes wrong! Last summer I was caught up in the aftermath of a horrific crash on the M5 just south of Worcester where a huge twin-axle towed by a Range Rover had come to grief and literally exploded, with its towcar embedded into it.
Graham
Graham
Most Mondeos have an 1800kg max. permissible towload so it could still have been within allowable limits.
Most accidents involving caravans appear more spectacular than they really are. Because caravans are generally of relatively flimsy construction, they tend to disintigrate as soon as they collide with any major obstacle. However, so long as no other vehicle is involved, it is unusual for the car's occupants to suffer serious injuries as the extent of the damage may suggest.
Lutz is right, the car may well of been capable of legally towing the van.
I do a simlar thing with my Renault Laguna 2 Ltr estate, towing a twenty foot twin axle van at 100% of the tow car's limit.
Stopping in a straight line is very good but as with any trailer if you try achoring up on a bend then you will induce a jack knife reaction.
Loading the caravan is paramount to getting a good tow out of the outfit. Most accidents are caused by either poor attention to loading (nose weight & heavey items over the axles) or a blow out caused by poor inspection of tyres (condition & pressure. Then the final one SPEED, why on earth people have to rush when on vacation is truly beyond comprehension.
Caravans do disintegrate spectacularly due to the light weight construction.
Another factor in towing which is only slightly being addressed now is that, Mr/Mrs average joe can still get behind the wheel of a 38foot car caravan combo weighing in at 3000Kgs total, without any formal training what so ever and believe me some expect the car still to perform the same.
For many years I towed an Ifor Williams goods 3500Kg goods trailer behind a Diahatsu F70 which weighed 2000Kgs wringing wet. But by being cautious and thinking ahead I only jack knifed once and that was at 20Mph on a single track road and through rushing!!
I do a simlar thing with my Renault Laguna 2 Ltr estate, towing a twenty foot twin axle van at 100% of the tow car's limit.
Stopping in a straight line is very good but as with any trailer if you try achoring up on a bend then you will induce a jack knife reaction.
Loading the caravan is paramount to getting a good tow out of the outfit. Most accidents are caused by either poor attention to loading (nose weight & heavey items over the axles) or a blow out caused by poor inspection of tyres (condition & pressure. Then the final one SPEED, why on earth people have to rush when on vacation is truly beyond comprehension.
Caravans do disintegrate spectacularly due to the light weight construction.
Another factor in towing which is only slightly being addressed now is that, Mr/Mrs average joe can still get behind the wheel of a 38foot car caravan combo weighing in at 3000Kgs total, without any formal training what so ever and believe me some expect the car still to perform the same.
For many years I towed an Ifor Williams goods 3500Kg goods trailer behind a Diahatsu F70 which weighed 2000Kgs wringing wet. But by being cautious and thinking ahead I only jack knifed once and that was at 20Mph on a single track road and through rushing!!
perhaps the vans were empty ,the Mondeo estate has over 6feet x 4.5 feet of storage room behind the front seats ,not every body piles luggage into the caravan scuffing the furniture inside while the car travels along empty ,the MRO weight of the Wyoming is 1454, lousiana 1435 , carolina 1459
Its a good point regarding the loading of the caravan. I was pitched next to a couple in the lakes a couple of years ago who were towing a twin wheeler with an estate car. When talking to the guy he said he gots lots of comments regarding the suitability of the outfit but apart from running with one gas bottle in the front locker everything else was loaded into the car.
Hi all- last year 06 we were down Gloucester way and stopped at a sevices and just after we parked in cam a Citroen Picasso and a twin wheeler Avondale. This was just before we got our van (Bailey Ranger) and we were concerned that a Ranger and our 2.0HDI Picasso could cope together. My hubby went over and spoke to the couple and he said that he was strict with the contents of the van but apart from keeping it in 4th gear -never 5th- all was well......makes you wonder just how many 'unsafe' outfits are on the roads. Since getting our van we are stringent what we put in but more so because of -do we use it?, do we need it?, did we use it on the last 2 outings?. Sick of shifting things we never seem to use. Cheers Gary
Hi All
I was on my way into the Cardiff office, and couldn't believe what I saw, it was a Renault Scenic pulling a Senator.
It just seamed such a small car to pull a van like this, maybe I am wrong if so I am sure some will tell me. It will probably pull it, but what about the match?
I was on my way into the Cardiff office, and couldn't believe what I saw, it was a Renault Scenic pulling a Senator.
It just seamed such a small car to pull a van like this, maybe I am wrong if so I am sure some will tell me. It will probably pull it, but what about the match?
Plenty of estate cars are quite heavy, we towed a T/A with a Volvo and it was well within 85%. The caravan replaced a Swift that was 4 odd feet shorter and heavier.
Older Senators are also lighter than newer ones.
Older Senators are also lighter than newer ones.
Well there are some mad folk out there!
There are the smaller single axle Senators as well, but even a new one of those would likely be to heavy for a Scenic.
I saw a very large Hobby behind an older Passat 3 times on the M4 early last year, roof rack with kids bikes and all.
Just keep well out of there way and say your prayers ;-)
But go 5mph over the limit in your car without a van in tow and Mr Plod will have you :-(
There are the smaller single axle Senators as well, but even a new one of those would likely be to heavy for a Scenic.
I saw a very large Hobby behind an older Passat 3 times on the M4 early last year, roof rack with kids bikes and all.
Just keep well out of there way and say your prayers ;-)
But go 5mph over the limit in your car without a van in tow and Mr Plod will have you :-(
Was it a UK registered Passat or a foreign one? If it was a UK one, the biggest Hobby that it may tow is a 540. All larger ones are 2.5m wide and therefore illegal unless a foreign visitor. The heaviest Hobby 540 weighs 1700kg (most are actually 1500kg) and a 140hp diesel Paasat may tow 1800kg, so where's the problem?
It was about a 10 year old Passat not one of the newer larger ones Lutz and was struggling on a hill the second time I saw it. Nose pointing to the stars.
Our Lunar 20' twin axle has an amazingly low miro of just 1100kg, The Scenic has a very short rear overhang and probably makes a good towcar, just as stable as much heavier soft suspension 4x4's, there are some drivers that should not be let loose with a shopping trolley and others that would successfully get to their destination with a 20' van behind a mini.
How do articulated lorries manage when the trailer is many times heavier than the tractor unit?
The pivot (towbar)is infront of the rear wheels.
They have very rigid suspension and anti roll bars as thick as your arm
Translated into cars, a short rear overhang means the trailer has less leverage to upset the stability of the car and sport / load carring suspension is more resitant to the influence of the trailer.
How do articulated lorries manage when the trailer is many times heavier than the tractor unit?
The pivot (towbar)is infront of the rear wheels.
They have very rigid suspension and anti roll bars as thick as your arm
Translated into cars, a short rear overhang means the trailer has less leverage to upset the stability of the car and sport / load carring suspension is more resitant to the influence of the trailer.
Family friends have always kept a 1996 Senator Camarque on a Cornish site, they do not tow the van but their son and his family towed the van for a few weeks each year.
There son has been offered a Senator Carolina and as he knows Bailey and the Senator name he's agreed a deal on the van but has just found that the new Senator has an MRO of 1459KG and MTLMP of 1739KG.
The older Senator Handbook gives an Ex works weight of 1170 KG Maximum Weight of 1435KG and Caravan payload of 230KG.
It seems that the new van that is only marginally bigger has grown by 250+ kilos and is to heavy for his comapny car.
He had assumed that a caravan ten years newer would be around the same weight or lighter.
I guess he could easily have hitched up and towed it away and been none the wiser.
There son has been offered a Senator Carolina and as he knows Bailey and the Senator name he's agreed a deal on the van but has just found that the new Senator has an MRO of 1459KG and MTLMP of 1739KG.
The older Senator Handbook gives an Ex works weight of 1170 KG Maximum Weight of 1435KG and Caravan payload of 230KG.
It seems that the new van that is only marginally bigger has grown by 250+ kilos and is to heavy for his comapny car.
He had assumed that a caravan ten years newer would be around the same weight or lighter.
I guess he could easily have hitched up and towed it away and been none the wiser.
Undoubtedly, a short rear overhang helps towards a stable outfit but just as important is the lateral stiffness of the rear suspension and tyres. High profile tyres and a suspension which 'gives' a lot when you push the back of the car side to side are very detrimental to stability.
A twin axle caravan with a MIRO of only 1100kg sounds like a lot of unnecessary deadweight to me. The second axle, including tyres, must weigh around 50kg and all that weight is weight that could be put to better use by increasing the payload.
A twin axle caravan with a MIRO of only 1100kg sounds like a lot of unnecessary deadweight to me. The second axle, including tyres, must weigh around 50kg and all that weight is weight that could be put to better use by increasing the payload.
I don't quite see what length has to do with the choice between single or twin axles. Even a 24' caravan can be perfectly manageable with just one axle. Weight is really the only factor which determines the necessity of a second axle and that doesn't really start below 1800kg. Below that it's only a matter of personal preference but I wouldn't want to give away about 50kg of payload unless I absolutely had to.
Quite agree Lutz.
I have the unenviable task of towing both our own 20 foot twin axle van and my father-in-law's 17 foot single axle van with my Renault Laguna estate and both tow impecably so long as they have a 70Kg nose weight and are loaded correctly.
Due to suspension design though, my twin axle is better at bumpy roads as the axles are linked and as the front axle rises to go over the hump, the rear axle lowers to compensate thus giving near zero weight transfer to the hitch. Modern twin axles don't have this facility and both single a twin axle vans have the same rubber compression suspension which is harder and bouncey too.
As I've already said correct weight distribution is key to success. Even a badly loaded camping trailer can write off a car when is sways out of control!! Saw a Volvo V70 estate slapped badly in both rear quater panels by a camping trailer swinging 90 deg side to side as it was badly loaded and being towed at about 80Mph on the M5. I bet
I have the unenviable task of towing both our own 20 foot twin axle van and my father-in-law's 17 foot single axle van with my Renault Laguna estate and both tow impecably so long as they have a 70Kg nose weight and are loaded correctly.
Due to suspension design though, my twin axle is better at bumpy roads as the axles are linked and as the front axle rises to go over the hump, the rear axle lowers to compensate thus giving near zero weight transfer to the hitch. Modern twin axles don't have this facility and both single a twin axle vans have the same rubber compression suspension which is harder and bouncey too.
As I've already said correct weight distribution is key to success. Even a badly loaded camping trailer can write off a car when is sways out of control!! Saw a Volvo V70 estate slapped badly in both rear quater panels by a camping trailer swinging 90 deg side to side as it was badly loaded and being towed at about 80Mph on the M5. I bet
A single axle van gives an ideal pivot point. A twin axle elliminates that easy pivot point.
Most lomg single axle vans seem to run on larger diameter tyres and give a higher centre of gravity.
Single axle is OK when all is well, but the twins have obvious advantages when things are not ideal.
The ease of swinging the rear end of a single axle when pitching site is the same for a side wind when towing!
Placing two nails on the road, one for the attention of one of a twin axles tyres and the other for that of one of the single axle tyres. What do you really fancy your chances with?
Would you prefer losing 25% of that ability that lets the van roll or 50% ?
Plus take into account the easier pivot point on the single axle as it swings about on one tyre.
Having been there and got the Tee shirt, a full frontal lobotomy will be needed before I ever use a single axle van again ;-)
Most lomg single axle vans seem to run on larger diameter tyres and give a higher centre of gravity.
Single axle is OK when all is well, but the twins have obvious advantages when things are not ideal.
The ease of swinging the rear end of a single axle when pitching site is the same for a side wind when towing!
Placing two nails on the road, one for the attention of one of a twin axles tyres and the other for that of one of the single axle tyres. What do you really fancy your chances with?
Would you prefer losing 25% of that ability that lets the van roll or 50% ?
Plus take into account the easier pivot point on the single axle as it swings about on one tyre.
Having been there and got the Tee shirt, a full frontal lobotomy will be needed before I ever use a single axle van again ;-)
The two axles of a twin axled caravan are so close together compared with the overall length that they provide relatively little serious resistance to pitching. The compliance in the tyres alone allows a fair amount of pitch and reduces the inherent better stiffness to pitching of a twin axle.
The idea that a twin axle necessarily offers more protection in case of a puncture of one tyre can lead one to a sense of false security. Depending on the overall weight of the caravan, a blowout of one tyre can lead to its adjacent one being so heavily overladen that it, too, fails as a consequence if one is unable to come to a full stop immediately.
It's all a matter of weighing the advantages of a twin against its disadvantages:
Advantages
1. Moderate pitch control (see above)
2. Better straight line running ability (only applies to short caravans, though. Long single axles are just as good)
Disadvantages
1. Extra weight of around 50kg, reducing the available payload
2. Difficult to manoeuvre (generally require a motor mover weighing another 30kg or so, thus reducing the payload even further)
3. Brakes are more difficult to balance properly (applies when caravan is being serviced)
It is not without reason that caravan manufacturers are now offering 1800kg single axled caravans, something which was unthinkable only a few years ago where everything 1400kg and over being twin was the norm.
The idea that a twin axle necessarily offers more protection in case of a puncture of one tyre can lead one to a sense of false security. Depending on the overall weight of the caravan, a blowout of one tyre can lead to its adjacent one being so heavily overladen that it, too, fails as a consequence if one is unable to come to a full stop immediately.
It's all a matter of weighing the advantages of a twin against its disadvantages:
Advantages
1. Moderate pitch control (see above)
2. Better straight line running ability (only applies to short caravans, though. Long single axles are just as good)
Disadvantages
1. Extra weight of around 50kg, reducing the available payload
2. Difficult to manoeuvre (generally require a motor mover weighing another 30kg or so, thus reducing the payload even further)
3. Brakes are more difficult to balance properly (applies when caravan is being serviced)
It is not without reason that caravan manufacturers are now offering 1800kg single axled caravans, something which was unthinkable only a few years ago where everything 1400kg and over being twin was the norm.
Having moved from a smaller single axle to a considearably larger twin pulled by the same car. I would dispute the observations about pitching Lutz.
The difference might be minimal, but they are better!
Sideways twisting is also much less on a twin than a single as well.
As for punctures, there can be problems with twins and load transerence to the 2nd tyre.
Experience we know of have been that you do tend ti get good warning and are able to take action compared to a single axle that is just gone leaving you in the S**t.
As for straight line running, a twin wants to run in a straight line where a single will run any way it fanciess given the slightest chance or side force such as wind.
The difference might be minimal, but they are better!
Sideways twisting is also much less on a twin than a single as well.
As for punctures, there can be problems with twins and load transerence to the 2nd tyre.
Experience we know of have been that you do tend ti get good warning and are able to take action compared to a single axle that is just gone leaving you in the S**t.
As for straight line running, a twin wants to run in a straight line where a single will run any way it fanciess given the slightest chance or side force such as wind.
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