Dealer Responsibility

[CEDRIC34]

I bought 2 caravans from a dealer off Ebay. He conveniently ( for him ) closed deal off Ebay by phone, but he also has a registered dealership.
Both of the caravans turned out to be " leaky pigs" and did not match the Ebay description for age and equipment such as awnings not included. After 2 years I am still trying to repair one enough to be able to use it.
I have phoned and emailed regarding problems and have received no satisfaction to date.
Is there any authority which I can appeal to to resolve my problems?

 

[Damian]

Did you see and examine both vans prior to purchase and was this at a recognised dealers premises?

There are Dealers and there are "dealers"...................

 

[CEDRIC34]

No, I could not inspect them because I live in New Zealand.
I was relying this person's Ebay feedback rating which was 100%. I did not realize that he must obviously short circuit Ebay to avoid paying their fees, and standing behind his sales.
I arranged for him to deliver caravans to my shipping agent F. S. MacKenzie Ltd.

 

[Damian]

I am afraid that there is nothing you can do, you failed to inspect them , or have them inspected, and agreed to end the sale off EBay
Without knowing who the seller is, it is impossible to know if they were genuine dealers or just people who buy up insurance written off vans and sell them on .

 

[colin-yorkshire]

I bought 2 caravans from a dealer off Ebay. He conveniently ( for him ) closed deal off Ebay by phone, but he also has a registered dealership.
Both of the caravans turned out to be " leaky pigs" and did not match the Ebay description for age and equipment such as awnings not included. After 2 years I am still trying to repair one enough to be able to use it.
I have phoned and emailed regarding problems and have received no satisfaction to date.
Is there any authority which I can appeal to to resolve my problems?

hi, welcome to the forum.
afraid you seem to have fallen into the Ebay dealer trap, you just have to be careful and follow the rules.
I have been dealing off Ebay over 10years and on the odd occasion have been sold faulty or not as described goods, there is a procedure to go through but only if you follow the resolution system,
I agree with Damian any high value goods or bulky items should be inspected prior to purchase. and never get steered away from the sites contractual process it is there for your protection.
any outside contact ect like phone or Email is a no,no, use the sites messaging system as all are recorded and logged.
and pay through paypal.
after 2 years I doubt there is anything you can do. exept trying a small claims court case. but this may cost more money and there is no guarantee of success. question is why did you buy a second one from the same seller when the first one was duff. and wait 2 years to ask for assistance, sorry to be negative but that how I see it.
there may be someone in a better position to advise an alternative.
but for me it is a case of too little too late if one makes a rod for their own back one should not be supprised if one gets hit with it!!. if the seller was indeed a trader and a dealer one could have complained under SOGA if done straight away but not after two years. this is nothing to do with Ebay though.

just to add a footnote. one does learn from mistakes all the problems I have had were successfully resolved by ebay with either a full refund or replacement. but you must use their system, I still have one unwanted item that I was given a refund for in the garage awaiting pick up by his courier so it does work.

EDIT.
given the last two posts and the fact you are a overseas buyer forget the comments about small claims or SOGA as these do not apply, sorry mate you are on your own afraid.

 

[CEDRIC34]

I did not know that I was avoiding Ebay.
The seller was *********** ******************Details noted but removed whilst certain checks are carried out)
I think it is simply wrong to such problem caravans to other side of world with no regard for who is buying them. His Company is still advertising to ship caravans globally and in fact he offered to supply some of the missing and broken items if I would buy another 2. He must think I am insane.
Even if I can't compensation for myself, I would certainly like to make certain no one else falls for same trap.
Pretty sure that these caravans were Insurance write off because they were so bad- should have gone to breakers yard.

 

[CEDRIC34]

For the record both caravans were bought at same time for ease of shipping in 40foot container. The 2 year period is what it has taken me to try and repair the one I am trying to use for myself.

 

[Dustydog]

Hi Cedric

Please can you tell us the make model and year of the two caravans you purchased. How did you pay for them?
We all live and learn and I appreciate you are the looser here.
Are there no caravans for sale nearer home?
Two years on I very much doubt you will succeed even via email pensive litigation.
I had a look at the dealers website. In the politest way they look like a third division player to me! hmy:

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi CEDRIC34,
I am sorry you have had such an unfortunate experience but the rules on EBay contracts are clear and spelled out in the T&C's in fact there are several warnings about circumventing the process. being at the other side of the globe would have made no difference.
on a pedantic note. I noticed you repeated the vans were purchased 2 years ago that would be 2012 ish, A time on this side of the earth that had really bad weather with storms and floods. many caravans were damaged and or used as temporary habitation units at the time these would would have to be disposed of some where. guess this is where some went. it is of no help now of course but as such things are globally news worthy one should have had some idea of there origins at least enough to send the alarm bells ringing. but alas hindsight is a wonderful thing.
good luck with the repairs I hope you do it soon in the meantime if you require help or advice on the repairs ask away, but I dont think there is anything that can be done to change what s happend.

 

[CEDRIC34]

In hindsight buying caravans locally would have been a smart option but I have bought cars from USA with no problems even from private sellers and so trusted that I should have got a fair deal through Ebay.
Paid for them with Bank transfer.
One was a 1993 Abbey Surrey which turned out to be a 1990, and the other was a 1999 Swift Corniche which turned out to be 1998.
One of the other reasons for time delay is that it takes 6 months to ship and clear caravans and the repairs are a slow process having to do them on weekends myself.
It is a shame that they are a 3rd division player as they just bring every reputable person down with them.

 

[Raywood]

If you bought from a dealer the Sale of Goods Act should apply but enforcing your rights from New Zealand would cost more than it is worth, assuming the dealer a limited company, is actually worth suing. I would not agree with Damien, if you relied on the dealers description then if it is incorrect then you do have rights against him it is just the problem of enforcing them. There are very real risks in buying unseen and having the goods shipped half way round the world and I am afraid this is a perfect example.

 

[Damian]

Quote " I would not agree with Damien, if you relied on the dealers description"

Normally I would agree, but when you look at the website and see that the particular caravan seller buys "Any Van, Any Condition" it rings alarm bells with me.
Also every van offered for sale on the website is claimed to "Excellent Mechanically" and Excellent Bodily" which is highly unlikely for all of them to be in perfect condition.

Both vans are from the same builder and at their age there is almost certainly going to be issues with the sealant in various places, like roof vents, awning rails, and window seals etc

Also, due to their age I would not buy without inspecting or having it inspected by a good engineer, especially if it is then going to the other side of the world in a container on a ship.

I have bought my last two cars by relying on the dealers description on the phone, without actually going to see the vehicles prior to collection, but it has always been on the understanding that if they were not exactly as described I would walk away.
Both cars were and are excellent, exactly as described and in both cases better than I anticipated.

 

[CEDRIC34]

Thank you for your input and suggestions.
N Z manufactured caravans never had " leak " problems and there are still many from the 1970's still going strong. Your member are obviously very aware of issues with UK caravans leaking even from new, and recognize the signs of potentially " dodgy" caravans.I should have joined the forum prior to purchasing. I have now realized this thanks to Wizard's Caravan repair site ( many thanks to him). The attraction about UK caravans is their fit out of bathrooms and kitchens. It would seem that one should not buy anything over 5 years old, but that was never in my budget, as shipping costs turns a 3000GBP caravan into a 10,000GBP caravan. It is also a shock to learn the cost of replacement items such as water heaters and taps ( all of which were frost cracked and needed replacing).
So for me an expensive learning curve, and it is shame that globalization allows " bottom feeders" like this man to thrive. Hopefully this site will release this man's Company name, which I have posted, as a warning to potential new victims.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Cedric,

I'm sorry I have not been able to reply to your posts earlier, but I have been away without internet connection.

From the posts up to now, it seems you have been sold products that do not match their description, and the goods are faulty, and not fit for purpose.

Assuming your reports are accurate, in both respects this seller has transgressed, trades descriptions, and Sale of Goods Act.

The fact that you are based outside of the UK makes no difference as the seller is based in the UK and is subject UK law, regardless of who he sells to.

But there are many difficulties with your case, including:-

1. You are abroad, which means accessing the necessary UK legal advice is more complicated.

2. The time elapsed between the sale, and the discovery of the faults.

3. The the fact the goods are no longer in the UK, and thus not available for UK inspection.

4. It is apparent you have already modified/attempted repairs to the goods which will have compromised the evidence.

5. What corroborated evidence is there the faults are as you claim.

6. You did not follow Ebay rules concerning the transaction so you cannot invoke their complaints procedure and support systems.

Based only on the information you have supplied, I conclude it would very difficult to obtain effective redress against the seller. However You should report the matter to the Trading Standards Department of the local council where he is based.

 

[CEDRIC34]

Thank you Prof JohnL,

I understand what you are saying about time delay and proof, but I have taken a dated photo diary of the rot as I have taken the necessary internals out , so that I know how it all goes back together. I have followed Ebay instructions about contacting seller in first instance to advise of problems and give first chance to help fix situation. As I mentioned earlier, his response was that I should buy a further 2 caravans from him and he could some of the missing and broken bits with them. I advised him that I am a 62 year old wage earner and do not have funds to do so , having lost so much on my current deal. Also I would end up wither another couple of " wrecks" and dig a even bigger financial hole for myself.
At his point in time I am keen to simply get my caravan to a useable state , and stay as far away from UK Caravan market as possible.
I will take your advice about contacting Fair Trading Standards authority.
What proof do I need to supply so the forum will release his details so that others can be spared the financial and emotional pain?

 

[Parksy]

Thank you Prof JohnL,

I understand what you are saying about time delay and proof, but I have taken a dated photo diary of the rot as I have taken the necessary internals out , so that I know how it all goes back together. I have followed Ebay instructions about contacting seller in first instance to advise of problems and give first chance to help fix situation. As I mentioned earlier, his response was that I should buy a further 2 caravans from him and he could some of the missing and broken bits with them. I advised him that I am a 62 year old wage earner and do not have funds to do so , having lost so much on my current deal. Also I would end up wither another couple of " wrecks" and dig a even bigger financial hole for myself.
At his point in time I am keen to simply get my caravan to a useable state , and stay as far away from UK Caravan market as possible.
I will take your advice about contacting Fair Trading Standards authority.
What proof do I need to supply so the forum will release his details so that others can be spared the financial and emotional pain?

Hi Cedric
I haven't had access to the internet for the past few days but I've read your woeful story and sympathise greatly with you. but unfortunately we have only your own written word, which while no doubt truthful wouldn't meet the standard required to prevent the person who sold the caravans to you from opening a legal action against Haymarket Consumer Media with a view to claiming a financial reward in the form of damages from the company.
For this reason in view of the multitude of complaints with regard to caravans and ancillary services on this particular forum a no name and shame rule has been introduced and rigorously adhered to http://www.practicalcaravan.com/forum/our-website/48922-forum-etiquette
Regardless of who this 'dealer' may be, your thread has raised awareness amongst potential caravan buyers no matter where they live about the very real pitfalls involved in purchasing a used caravan via the internet without either inspecting it thoroughly themselves, or in your own case paying a hundred pounds or so for a fully qualified approved mobile service engineer to check both caravans over prior to parting with more of your hard earned money. You will hopefully have prevented others from making similar mistakes because the real moral of the story is for buyers to take nothing on trust no matter who they buy from.
Good luck with the rectification work, I'm sure that others will join me in hoping that you will be able to salvage something from this and if you would like further advice please stay in touch.

 

[CEDRIC34]

Well, that is a shame, and I suppose the rules will be the same no matter which forum that I contact. It must make these "low lifes" feel pretty bullet proof. That leaves me the option of sourcing parts to finish and repair myself, but now I have no confidence to even buy parts , and so must use one of our importers to source parts, and pay a premium. So up goes my costs on a caravan that will always look like "pig", because it will always be obvious that it is heavily repaired, and therefor must sell at a lower price. Because I myself have too much conscience to sell items without full disclosure.
I wish in hindsight I had set fire to it when it arrived to save the aggravation.
Oh, but it was too wet to burn.

 

[Parksy]

I hope that one way and another you can resolve the situation. There are very few caravan dealerships in the UK had a dispute with a dissatisfied customer
This is due in part to the way that consumer laws appear to absolve caravan manufacturers from blame for faulty or shoddy products with the onus on dealers although in your case you have to accept some responsibility for being far too trusting.
I don't think that 'forum rules' apply to social media sites such as Facebook

 

[ProfJohnL]

.................I will take your advice about contacting Fair Trading Standards authority...............
What proof do I need to supply so the forum will release his details so that others can be spared the financial and emotional pain?

Hello again Cedric.

Just to correct a point, I suggested you to contact Trading Standards in the sellers local authority, not the Fair Trading Standards Authority which is something entirely different if it even exists.

In the UK the legal retail trading arrangements rely on Caveat Emptor or Buyer Beware. Basically this means it is the responsibility of the buyer to ensure the goods are fit for purpose. You should inspect and ask all relevant questions before making the contract to purchase.

However dealers are also obliged to provide accurate information, such as advertisements, sales literature, and in response to any questions asked about the goods. failure to do so is a breach of Advertising Standards or Trading Standards.

The Sale of Goods Act requires sellers to supply goods according to contract, which are of merchantable quality, and fit for purpose. It also requires the goods to be free from design, manufacturing, and material defects. This applies to both new and second hand goods, BUT where goods are second hand, most reputable dealers will make it clear if there are any known issues with the item. The customer can then decide if they wish to contract to purchase or not.

A lot of UK judicial law is unwritten, but it is generally well established that a special relationship is established when a customer uses a dealer. It is expected the dealer will have relevant expert knowledge about the products they deal in, and should use that knowledge to advise customers appropriately. If they fail to do so or provide inappropriate or wrong advice they are also culpable if the product is not what the average man in the street would expect it to do. Old caravans are well known to be prone to damp issues, and most reputable dealers would or should have carried out a survey or advised the customer before purchase.

In all the above areas, if the deal is struck with a UK trader the tenants apply, regardless of where the customer is. However, the customer also has responsibilities. firstly the goods must not modified or used in any way contrary to there intended purpose, and if an issue arises the seller must have reasonable access and opportunity to remedy the situation.

Sadly the export of the goods abroad certainly presents a problem with reasonable access, and you have started repairs/modifications which will have destroyed evidence of the faults. Whilst you may have photographs of the situation, that by its self may not be enough to verify the faults. It would also help to have an independent engineers report that clearly states the nature of the faults and if they predate your purchase.

Within the UK consumer rights are there but sadly many citizens are not fully conversant with them, and don't use them as frequently as they could. Consequently some rogue traders try to use the populations general ignorance to bamboozle customers into inappropriate purchases.

As Parksy has commented, this forum is not a place to name and shame. The forum is hosted by Haymarket a commercial organisation, and their policies must be accepted. The best we can do is to keep trying to educate the public on how to protect themselves by taking measured steps when making big purchases. If the public were to fully utilise their statutory rights correctly, the rouge traders would either be brought to book or simply fail to make any sales and close.

I do think you would have had a good case, but for the reasons I gave in my last post I suspect it would be very difficult to conduct it from NZ now.

 

[CEDRIC34]

Many thanks to all of you with all of good advice. I can now understand a bit more how the processes have to go, or should have gone.I placed a feedback on Google on this traders website which will hopefully alert " new victims" I also emailed to advise of this and ask if would reconsider sourcing some of the items I need to repair caravan. He declined.

Today I will lodge claim with Money Court On Line in UK and see what outcome is. I am more focused now on stopping this person from ripping more people off.
I will post results , good or bad, after.