Does Speed really matter?

[Phil_5115351]

As I am relativly inexperianced with towing, I like to ask a lot of questions to try and avoid, or a least minimise the risks of an accident. One such questions I have asked and toyed with in my own head is how fast should I be realisticaly driving at (speed limits ovbvioulsy apply but maybe sometimes they are not reached in certain conditions).

This weekend I overtook 3 outfits in a row which we travelling at 49/50mph on a duel carrigeway, I was doing 57mph ish and felt very stable. My outfit also feels ok at 50-55mph in good conditions on A/B roads (taking into account bumps), whereas others will sit at 45mph. I appreciate that this is speeding, which is wrong, but I have seen outfits going alot faster.

The point I am trying to make is - if your outfit is stable and the car in excellent condition and you are travelling at nearly 60mph, how much more are you affected by variables on the road such as lorries, crosswinds etc than if you sat at 45mph. Does it really make that much of difference for the sake of 15mph?

 

[woodbush]

I travel at 55-60mph on motorways and dual carriageways and 55mph on all other roads. I sometimes go faster to overtake lorries but only when travelling uphill as the chances of losing control are less.

Even at these speeds some caravanners pass me going like a bat out of hell.

Stability has a lot to do with your outfit match and noseweight as well as road conditions. If its windy or going downhill I always slow down a bit. Whatever you feel is safe is the right speed.

Dont worry what other people do, if you feel safe at 50-55mph then thats OK.

 

[Tony A.]

Phil,

Does it make a difference breakin speed limits? try going around a bend which you are happy with at speed, then half way through the bend slam the brakes on, I think with a ton to a ton and a half or more pushing you along, you might get the answer, speed limits are for a reason.

I drive up to them but rarely over them, and I think the slow coaches who drive at 10 mph under the limit, holding up traffic, are the ones giving caravaning a bad name, I`ve seen them on the M/way doing 50 to 55 just 5mph under the limit not a lot eh, but they are like a moving chicane, forcing lorries into the middle lane, and generaly holding things up.

I know it`s each to his own but slow coaches can be a pain.

Tony A.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Phill,

The stability of an outfit is dependant on many factors, Some you can influence when loading the outfit, some you control whilst driving. What you don't have control of is the road conditions, wind and other drivers, but you must make allowances for them.

Assuming you have done your best to load and match the trailer to the tug, the biggest remaining influence is the way the outfit is driven. The driver must proceed in manner that allows the preconception of hazards to formed and strategies considered to manage them if they arise.

Don't forget that a car & caravan will not handle and change direction as easily and tidily as a solo car, so high speed eat up thinking and action distances much quicker.

Each time you double your speed you are at least quadrupling the forces than can upset the outfit. Even a outfit that seems to be stable across a wide range of speeds will if driven fast enough, exceed the the ability of the driver to control it (although in some rare cases that speed might be faster that the tug can actually achieve whilst towing).

The easiest way to maximise your ability to control the moving outfit is to manage your speed. The slower the safer.

I agree with Tony A' that speed limits should be obeyed, they are the law, it does not follow that keeping to the speed limit ensures safety. You should drive according to the prevailing road conditions, the abilities of the driver and vehicle, and and the not exceed the speed limits.

If in doubt slow down.

 

[CliveV]

Good answer Tony - agree 100%.

Phil - At least you are aware of some of the problems you could experience. I think having to break sudenly on a bend is one of the most scary things you can do when towing.

Jack-knifing can really spoil your day.

My only suggestion is to stay alert - take a rest when you need one - and read the road ahead. That way a "surprize" is less likely to happen.

 

[JohnI.Stephen]

Hi Phil;

On m'ways I set the cruise to 56 mph (90kph) which means that you crusie at teh same speed as the larger lorries. This has real advantages as it avoids constantly pulling out to overtake and ensure that they don't catch you up either. Whilst 56mph is below the 60mph 'limit' it ensure that we neither hod people up or are being held up.

As for dual carriageways / A roads; 55 and 50 respectively.

John

 

[vi]

Just a thought....Our caravan handbook (new...we haven't got the van yet) makes the point that if you drive over 100kilometres per hour(approx 60mph) then the insurance will be invalidated or lessened in case of an accident as the manufacturer states that the caravan is designed to travel no faster than this. This is on all roads, both in UK and in Europe. So even though one can legally go faster than 100kmp on French motorways, the manufacturer disclaimer would seem to override this.

Vi

 

[popupJohn]

Sorry John I. Stephen but the thought of giving so much control to the car scares me ridgid.

When towing I feel I need every wit about me and complete control.

I`m sure a cruise control when solo is fine but can they cope with and correct when towing?

My ignorance of them may well be unfounded but it would take a lot to convert me on this issue

 

[Steve L]

You should NEVER feel that you need to speed up to go with the flow. The nearside lane of any dual carriageway and motorway are there for a purpose and that is for use by traffic. Notice I didn't say slow traffic, because any vehicle should use that lane if there is no traffic ahead.

You are quite right to drive at what you feel is right for you but keep within the speed limits, after all that is what they are, a limit not a target.

As already mentioned being cautious and reading the road ahead will avoid braking in bends and emergencey stops.

One thing you should always be prepared for these days is the dreaded worn out road with the tram lines left by years of pounding from lorries delivering the daily goods we all need.

This type of road will induce a slight sway which often feels like you are veering off the road and then when you correct that you slip into the adjacent tram line which veer's you the other way. A classic example of this can be found at the western end of the New Radnor bypass on the A44. After a lovely smooth straight passing New Radnor you drop onto the tar and chipping'd bit which is a masked tram line. This causes a real problem to the un prepared as you are going slightly down hill and picking up speed.

Driving with caution, consideration for others and within the parameters of your safe satisfaction are all to be used as a guide to a safe stress free journey.

Steve.

 

[tj_4]

vi

what handbook are you reading from. The 2006 Bailey manual says that the van is safe for continious speeds of up to 81mph. Which is the French motorway speed.

I must admit I don't like to go much over 75mph, ( on French autoroutes )unit feels stable but wouldn't take much to upset it. I have increased to 81mph to overtake but always on slight uphill gradient, never would I try it downhill.

My van is 71% of the weight of my towcar fully loaded.

I used to tow at 100% at this level it was necessary to keep towing speeds down as it was very easy to upset the unit.

 

[Icemaker]

John, cruise control is absolutely fine when towing, the cars onboard computers adjust every thing to the prevailing conditions and keep the car at a constant speed at all times. we used to find it quite amusing to see the accelerater pedal on our old discovery moving on its own as the car regulated its speed, my alhambra does it differently as the pedal never moves. i have a policy of stopping for a break every 100 miles and on a recent trip to cornwall apart from the stops my car ran on cruise at 60 mph all the way from knutsford services to exeter.

Regarding the original topic, speed is very relevant, my currant towcar a seat alhambra seems to be very capable even in quite windy conditions so i am happy to carry on towing at 60 mph on motorways whereas my discovery and my dads shogun both suffered from instability in wind so we slowed down to a speed where we felt safe once on the m6 in cumbria i was down to 45 mph with the disco in heavy winds. regarding those that that travel slowly at all times i think 50 mph is too slow in this day and it does cause congestion due to the lorries trying to overtake but what about them that travel slower still, they really should not be using motorways if theire confidence is so low, some dont even seem to be aware that the legal minimum speed on motorways in the uk is 40 mph its high time this was raised.

 

[sparkes]

Phil

This is a difficult subject as there are a lot of things to consider.

Items such as weight, size, power, experience all come into it. My Disco has ACE (a suspension mod) that makes it very stable at all legal speeds, but my brothers does not and is very different in windy conditions.

My suggestion is to tow in a way that makes you feel confident. (within the law that is). Me, I will set the cruise at 60 and relax, others will slow down while towing. Only other suggestion is that if you are travelling with another van, let the least confident set the speed and stay below it.

Either way, its better to arrive late then never. Holidays start the second you finish work, so don't let towing stress you as its not a good way to start your holiday.

Steve

 

[cokey1970]

Icemaker, I don't know where you got your information from, but there is no minimum speed limit on the motorway in the UK.

 

[rob_jax]

Hi Phil,

A few years ago there was a very interesting research paper presented by Bath University School of Mechanical Engineering - concerning caravan stability - this predates the current work undertaken by Jos Darling (Bath Uni) on behalf of Bailey - maybe they were scoping the market for work.

In summary, a Ford Mondeo and two representative caravans from different manufacturers (with different MRO - one was way under 85%, one between 90% and 100%)- and with and without stabilisers and other stuff.

The Mondeo and the caravan were fitted with recording telemetry for speed, steering input angle, caravan roll, pitch and yaw, and a host of other stuff.

The car steering wheel was fitted with limit stops so that the driver could induce repeatable "emergency avoidance" steering inputs - then monitor what happened (on a disused airfield of course)

In summary they found that stability decreased in a very predictable way as speed increases - up to the speed where that car and caravan has "zero stability" and instability lies beyond.

They found that they could express stability as a "zero stability" speed or alternatively express the percentage improvement that a stabiliser has, or the reduction that an incorrect nosewieght has.

Interesting, if lengthy reading, and the report is in engineering terms so you need to be able to understand and draw conclusions from graphs and equations.

Copies do exist on the Internet and I have a re-print, confirming what most of us suspect - more speed = less stability, more noseweight = more stability (but surprisingly not much), ALKO (or other stabiliser) = big increase in stability, and more importantly enabling some predictions to be made.

Robert

 

[JohnI.Stephen]

Hello John M H; yes the Cruise control really qworks well and in no way am I relinquishing control. What I am actually doing is allowing me to ensure that I don't inadvertently 'creep' up beyond 60 mph; something that seemed to happen all too easily when in non cruise.

Jo and I find it a much safer and more relaxed drive and we sit in the inside lane keeping a constant distant betwen us and the (inevitable) artic in front rather than the lane swapping that will occur is you try to stick at 60; either manually or on cruise. Unless of course you're happy to stay in teh middle lane. We prefer to leave earler, take a little longer and remove the stress out of the journey. (and with my new CCTV camera at the rear, I can now see everything that's behind; not just the vehicles that are about to overtake or I just happen to be negotiating a rh bend and then I catch a glimpse !)

John

 

[popupJohn]

Hello John M H; yes the Cruise control really qworks well and in no way am I relinquishing control. What I am actually doing is allowing me to ensure that I don't inadvertently 'creep' up beyond 60 mph; something that seemed to happen all too easily when in non cruise.

Jo and I find it a much safer and more relaxed drive and we sit in the inside lane keeping a constant distant betwen us and the (inevitable) artic in front rather than the lane swapping that will occur is you try to stick at 60; either manually or on cruise. Unless of course you're happy to stay in teh middle lane. We prefer to leave earler, take a little longer and remove the stress out of the journey. (and with my new CCTV camera at the rear, I can now see everything that's behind; not just the vehicles that are about to overtake or I just happen to be negotiating a rh bend and then I catch a glimpse !)

John

Thanks to yourself and Iceman earlier for the comments on cruise control. I`ll take both comments on board if and when I buy a car with it installed

 

[Phil_5115351]

Thanks for all the opinions.

There obviously is no set answer to what speed I should be travelling at taking into account the individual variables, but the research done by Bath University made for interesting reading. I have been reluctant to use my stabaliser in the past, thinking that my outfit should be stable without it and that it is only an aid, but from what I read the effects of the stabaliser are very significant. I shall be using it on the longer runs.

The comments regarding cruise control are unfortunatley irrelavent to me as I do not have this fitted to my car, although the principal appears sound. My boss at work swears by the cruise control for towing though, saying that it makes the journey less stressfull.

I am in the process of getting some MAD springs and uprated shock absorbers (when the finally get here!) which should further enhance the stability of the car.

I suppose no one can judge for the best speed for me to drive at (up to the speed limit then its the police's decision) as no two driving occastions will ever be the same.

 

[Icemaker]

Martin, it was a well publcised case where a lady of some age was stopped by the police for travelling at 30 mph on the m6, the officer on the tv news stated that 40 mph was the absolute minimum that you should travel on the motorway and anything below this would be deemed as not making adequat progress and therefore causing an obstruction which you could be prosecuted for. it may not be the law as you state but then again the police will find a law if they want, and really at 40 mph the person really should not be on the motorway should they.

 

[PC_5119929]

"Does speed really matter"

Well it does when something goes wrong!

So make sure the car and van is as healthy as can be at all times.

Caravanning over the to many years to recall, being prepared to adjust to the sittuation is the most important factor I find.

I'm amazed that I still see modern cars towing modern vans with the van swaying about or pitching up and down and doing both under braking and some drivers trying to see over the end of the bonnet as it points skywards.

If you want to travel near or on the speed limits, just make sure the van and car are loaded correctly and runs in a clean smooth line for yours and all our sakes.

 

[cokey1970]

Martin, it was a well publcised case where a lady of some age was stopped by the police for travelling at 30 mph on the m6, the officer on the tv news stated that 40 mph was the absolute minimum that you should travel on the motorway and anything below this would be deemed as not making adequat progress and therefore causing an obstruction which you could be prosecuted for. it may not be the law as you state but then again the police will find a law if they want, and really at 40 mph the person really should not be on the motorway should they.

It's the first time i've heard of this cas ebut it just goes to show that you shouldn't believe everything you see on the TV.

IMHO I wouldn't have a problem with some driving at 40mph on the motorway. A bigger and more dangerous problem that needs addressing are people who drive in lane 2 and won't move over and tailgating.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Note for Phil

Insurance companies statistics show that the majority motoring incidents occure on short journeys. I seriously suggest that if you have a stabaliser use it on all occasions when towing, long or short journeys all the same.

 

[moses]

What's the rush phil ?

Trying to get there for best Pitches.

Or Just wanna stay in middle lane all day along with the rest of the well trained last minute.com's.

Do as the law states on motorway's 60mph when towing & drive to weather conditions.

That is of course unless you have loads of Money to throw away when you're car & van Flip.

But dont worry I'll overtake you then, & don't worry yourself

about costing me around 2-3hrs of admiring the New car Park.

ps:yes I only tow to the legal speed limits,& that also applies when in my Car to which I use all 3 lanes . Also stop trying to outrun hgv's, if they are going 56mph & attempting to overtake because you feel safe under 56mph then let Them.

 

[Phil_5115351]

Moses, thanks for replying to my topic, but not very useful! I did'nt ask for you to make assumptions on my lane useage, or on whether you think I race lorries or not, or if I will risk flipping my car at expense of my childrens safety in a bid to get a slightly better pitch.

The actual question was relating to the difference in risks when travelling at moderate speeds i.e. 45mph compared to speed limits i.e. 60mph.

 

[PC_5119929]

This may upset some, but if you mean travelling at 45 where you can legally and safely do 60mph. I would say you MAY or COULD be a dangerous menace.

You may technically be quite safe, but with other road users I could see you becoming a victim of others frustrations. The likes of that a wayward White Van Knight of the road or some boy racer in a hurry to meet his girl is going to find the smallest gap to try and get past you and you could become victim of their need to pusg pass you.

Police training involves a driver or rider "making good progress" this means taking into account all obstacles, conditions and dangers and then driving near to the speed limits so you are not obstructing others progress along the road.

Taking it that your car and rig are well matched, healthy and well loaded I would not be driving at 45 or 55 if all was well in a 60mph limit as I doubt I would feel or be safe in most UK traffic conditions.

 

[Phil_5115351]

P C,

I totally agree with the point of flustrating (?) other drivers by going at 45mph in 60mph when conditions allow a higher speed. Maintaining a good speed which is suitable for both other road users and your own personal safety is paramount to being safe on the road.