Dreaded damp on second hand Unicorn Valencia

[chrisphoto]

We have just bought the caravan of our dreams from a very reputable dealer in Derbyshire - a very well kept 2011 Unicorn Valencia. When buying it we asked about damp issues in Baileys and the salesman said that 1. They had never ever heard of a Bailey Alu tech having any sort of damp or water ingress issue and 2. This caravan was 100% damp free.

Two days after delivery we went away for a week. While on the camp site I had a look st the underside and was stunned to see the rear corners, front and rear of the wheel arches, and a narrow strip across the front all rotten to the point of being able to press my finger through the floor. Inside thr caravan I can feel the soft floor though the lino. The rear 30cm has been replaced before. The PDI paperwork shows a damp check of the floor all round at 12% including the rotten areas. The dealer even fitted a motor mover over the rotten area behind the wheel arches. The dealer has agreed to look at it and at first I was told the saleswoman would be the only one who decides whether or not they will repair it, but after some arguing they agreed Bailey have damp issues and that the service team should have picked the issues up on PDI. I emailed Bailey and they also agreed the caravan condition is unacceptable and have asked me to pay them £35 to transfer the body warranty to my name, but it seems the original owner serviced the caravan at 10 months old rather than 12 and so strictly the warranty may already be voided.

Any advice would be appreciated. Should I reject the caravan and ask the dealer to provide a rot free one? Should I demand a repair? Is a repair going to work - it seems Bailey have a serious design issue. What would be my best option overall?

 

[otherclive]

Sorry to hear of your troubles. If it were me I would want to reject the caravan using the UK consumer rights act. I wouldn't accept further repairs. Don't know about Baileys warranty but Swift have a reasonable servicing time window either side of the registration date. However I would want rid of the van and the dealership too. Read the CRA info on th Gov.uk website it gives lots of good information on your rights. Detail your requests to the dealer in writing, and give them a timescale to respond. Be prepared and tell them that you will be prepared to use the Small Claims Court if necessary. Don't be fobed off by salesmans platitudes.
Early alutech vans had condensation problems that I understand did lead to low level flooring defects. Not sure how Bailey resolved this on caravans that were in use.

 

[ProfJohnL]

We have just bought the caravan of our dreams from a very reputable dealer in Derbyshire - a very well kept 2011 Unicorn Valencia. When buying it we asked about damp issues in Baileys and the salesman said that 1. They had never ever heard of a Bailey Alu tech having any sort of damp or water ingress issue and 2. This caravan was 100% damp free.

Two days after delivery we went away for a week. While on the camp site I had a look st the underside and was stunned to see the rear corners, front and rear of the wheel arches, and a narrow strip across the front all rotten to the point of being able to press my finger through the floor. Inside thr caravan I can feel the soft floor though the lino. The rear 30cm has been replaced before. The PDI paperwork shows a damp check of the floor all round at 12% including the rotten areas. The dealer even fitted a motor mover over the rotten area behind the wheel arches. The dealer has agreed to look at it and at first I was told the saleswoman would be the only one who decides whether or not they will repair it, but after some arguing they agreed Bailey have damp issues and that the service team should have picked the issues up on PDI. I emailed Bailey and they also agreed the caravan condition is unacceptable and have asked me to pay them £35 to transfer the body warranty to my name, but it seems the original owner serviced the caravan at 10 months old rather than 12 and so strictly the warranty may already be voided.

Any advice would be appreciated. Should I reject the caravan and ask the dealer to provide a rot free one? Should I demand a repair? Is a repair going to work - it seems Bailey have a serious design issue. What would be my best option overall?

Hello chrisphoto,

I am sorry to read of the problems you have had with your caravan and caravan dealer.

Like Otherclive I also strongly advise you take no prisoners and deal with this matter through the Consumer Right Act 2015.

Assuming your report is accurate then you have been sold goods which do not match the description you were given;- specifically in relation to this caravan you were told it was "100% damp free." when in fact it was not.

That is enough under the criteria of the CRA to represent a clear breach of contract on the part of the dealer. That gives you full just cause to call for a 100% refund of all monies and other goods used to purchase the caravan.

Although you may think Bailey are to blame by virtue of their design, as you have no contract with Bailey you have no claim against them.

With the benefit of hinde sight I would have been very suspicious becasue of the salespersons other general claim that "They had never ever heard of a Bailey Alu tech having any sort of damp or water ingress issue" Given the caravan industries well reported history of damp issues.

This Dealer needs to be brought to book for this disgraceful deceit. Your case will be much stronger if another person (even your wife or children) witnessed the sales person make those specific claims to you.

 

[otherclive]

Just a further point the Government CRA/Citizens Advice website has some excellent pro forma letters which a very useful when you need to formally refer your complaint to a Seller.

 

[Raywood]

I agree with the previous posts and you should immediately reject the caravan, I do not think I can add anything useful to their points on the legal position.
Apart from the assertion that this one was damp free being wrong, it is blatantly untrue that Alutech caravans do not suffer from damp, and a quick search on the internet forums will provide ample proof of this. No one who has any dealings with caravans could honestly say this about any make.
I agree the Citizens Advice website is good and they have a useful helpline if you need them. If you are a member of either of the big clubs they both have good legal helplines who will be very familiar with the problem and you may also have one with your house contents insurance or any union membership.
If you are writing a letter to reject send it recorded delivery so there is evidence of them getting it.

 

[chrisphoto]

Thanks for the replies everyone. The consensus appears to be that I should reject the caravan. Given, however, that in every other respect this caravan was the best example we found, and that it seems a very large percentage of alu techs have the same water ingress issue, would a properly executed repair not potentially give us a caravan better than others of the same age? There are still 3 years of Bailey’s warranty remaining and the dealer also provided a 2 year Gold warranty.

From my understanding of the Consumer Rights Act I can choose between repair or replacement, although I’m not sure how replacement would work with a used caravan. Due to the salesperson’s misrepresentation I can also reject and/or be compensated. The van is due to go in to Robinson’s tomorrow for them to look at and I will discuss it with them then. Repair, replace, reject....

 

[Mel]

Tricky decision, but we have a 2016 Valencia with no damp ( frantically touching all wood within reach). So not all of them are damp, not by a long chalk.
Mel

 

[otherclive]

Do you have s ckear idea of what the repair constitutes? It’s alright replacing the damaged areas but what design or build changes have been made to stop it acting again?
Are you now certain that the caravan is covered by Baileys warranty as in your first post you weren’t ckear. I’ve had Gold warrranty on a van issued by a well known insurance group. It excluded quite a few water ingress modes. Does the Gold warranty require you to service it at 12 month intervals and are these aligned with Baileys service schedule timescales. If not you could be paying for additional services.
Have you thought about possible resale value if problems are known to be more commonplace and there has or hasn’t been a satisfactory modification to ensure they don’t arise after the repair has been carried out.
After the dealers comments on purchase and following your initial reporting of the damage do you really have faith in them from hereon?
I understand that you really like the caravan but there’s others out there that will be just as good if not better.

 

[Raywood]

You do have the choice of a repair or your money back. A replacement is possible but would possibly be difficult to source. If the repair is not satisfactory you can still reject the caravan within a further 30 days but frankly I would not trust it given the extent of the problem.
The warranty is additional protection, but it would only cover a repair, and it is not clear where you stand with that, so the Consumer Protection Act looks your best bet here.

 

[ProfJohnL]

There are two important issues in my mind.

The first is the dealers dishonesty in the first place. The business is legally responsible for all comments and promises made by their sales person, or agents acting on their behalf, and all such comments do form part of the sale contact, and dealers have got realise that important aspect of their expert relationship with the consumer.

The second is the extent of the faults with the caravan. If you had been told the caravan was damp would you have agreed to purchase it? Without seeing the caravan I cannot really make my mind up as to how bad the damage is, and if and if a full repair would restore the value or taint the caravan for life.

It is of course your choice, but I would not be pursuing a repair, Id be looking for a full money back

 

[Buckman]

There are two important issues in my mind.

The first is the dealers dishonesty in the first place. The business is legally responsible for all comments and promises made by their sales person, or agents acting on their behalf, and all such comments do form part of the sale contact, and dealers have got realise that important aspect of their expert relationship with the consumer.

The second is the extent of the faults with the caravan. If you had been told the caravan was damp would you have agreed to purchase it? Without seeing the caravan I cannot really make my mind up as to how bad the damage is, and if and if a full repair would restore the value or taint the caravan for life.

It is of course your choice, but I would not be pursuing a repair, Id be looking for a full money back

The above advice by John is spot on as can you trust this dealer who obviously did not do a PDI at all on the caravan. Fitting the motor mover they should have noticed the damp or rotten structure. It seems the dealer set out to fleece you. Get a full refund and walk away as you do not know what other problems there are with this caravan

 

[Buckman]

Deleted!

 

[Anseo]

Lots of valid comments made already, I too would be concerned if the repair rectified the root cause of the problem.

No doubt in my mind if it were me, I would reject it and move on.

 

[chrisphoto]

Was meant to take the caravan back to the dealer for inspection today, but the snow put paid to that. Spoke to them at length on the phone, however, and was told they will put any problem right, but they will not accept my rejection until after they have inspected and agreed a rejection is appropriate. They argue I cannot reject unless they agree with there being a problem as it “absolutely would not have left the premises with any damp or dry rot in the floor.” This is all from the very annoyed and passive aggressive salesperson so far, the sales director is yet to respond.

The attitude of the dealer so far is at odds with their reputation, so I am willing to discuss the issue with them but only at a higher level than the sales person. My options all remain open.

 

[ProfJohnL]

All my comments are based on the precept that you have told us the whole truth, So given that proviso (and for the record I am not calling you a liar) the dealer does not have a leg to stand on. The goods were not as described. and that is clear breach of contract. - Even if the goods only had minor flaws, the breach of contract is the lie the sales person told you.

There are several very good web sites that will help you compose formal rejection letters in accordance with the CRA - use them or seek professional legal advice.

At the very least do write recorded delivery to the dealers Managing Director or Dealer Principle, detailing the experience you have had, and that you cannot trust the sales person whom conducted your purchase, and that all communications on this matter must be in written form.

The prepared CRA documents will suggest a reasonable time scale for replies, and if they don't (without good reason) comply with those points do not be afraid to initiate a small claims process to recover your money.

If your letter does not produce a response, you can be pretty certain a court summons should produce some action.

 

[chrisphoto]

Thanks again to all for the advice. We went for a drive to a different Bailey dealer today and had a look at the used Alu Techs on the forecourt. The two Unicorns and one Pegasus from 2011 and 2012 were all rot free in the rear corners and around the wheel arches, BUT they had all had those sections of floor cut out and replaced at some point. They had also all had extra plastic sheeting placed around the areas where the body panels joined each other above - the sales person explained that it stopped water running down the body joins and on to the floor in those areas. That makes 4 Alu Tech caravans I have now looked at the underside of the floor in and ALL have the same problem. The decision now seems to be repair and modifications as stipulated by Bailey or reject the caravan and Bailey altogether.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I'm Sorry Chrisphoto,

I cannot agree with your suggested course of action which I presume is with teh supplying dealer.

Your dealer (Through their salesperson) lied to you. The dealer is responsible for the actions of their sales person and they should not be allowed to get away with it.

The caravan you received from them was not as described, and was indeed very faulty. That is fraud! Obtaining money by deception, and contrary to their obligations under Trading standards. They have run a horse and cart through your consumer rights.

Its not as if the fault was not apparent at the point of sale. It was and their fitters should have reported it when they fitted the motor mover, BUT THEY DIDN'T. They sold it to you despite having had more than reasonable opportunity to fully inspect the caravan for what may have been a common fault.This is reminiscent of the shoddy way that car dealers used to operate in the 1960's.And the dealer should be made acutely aware of how wrong they have been.

They have sold a caravan for more than it was worth, They have made a profit, and its likely the repairs for a common fault will be paid for by the Manufacturer.

I've had my say Iv'e offered my perception of the correct advice, it is your choice now.

 

[Buckman]

Was meant to take the caravan back to the dealer for inspection today, but the snow put paid to that. Spoke to them at length on the phone, however, and was told they will put any problem right, but they will not accept my rejection until after they have inspected and agreed a rejection is appropriate. They argue I cannot reject unless they agree with there being a problem as it “absolutely would not have left the premises with any damp or dry rot in the floor.” This is all from the very annoyed and passive aggressive salesperson so far, the sales director is yet to respond.

The attitude of the dealer so far is at odds with their reputation, so I am willing to discuss the issue with them but only at a higher level than the sales person. My options all remain open.

If the rejection is within the first 30 days you do NOT have to give them a chance to repair. You care reject outright and get a full refund! If the dealer refuses they could be committing a criminal offence and face prosecution.

 

[Raywood]

There are two important issues in my mind.

The first is the dealers dishonesty in the first place. The business is legally responsible for all comments and promises made by their sales person, or agents acting on their behalf, and all such comments do form part of the sale contact, and dealers have got realise that important aspect of their expert relationship with the consumer.

The second is the extent of the faults with the caravan. If you had been told the caravan was damp would you have agreed to purchase it? Without seeing the caravan I cannot really make my mind up as to how bad the damage is, and if and if a full repair would restore the value or taint the caravan for life.

It is of course your choice, but I would not be pursuing a repair, Id be looking for a full money back

I agree with the advice above, I would not want a repair, but the choice is yours and the final decision is up to you. For me there are plenty of dry caravans around on the second hand market and I would look for one of them.
If you bought the caravan on finance, or used a credit card for any part of the purchase, you also have a claim against the finance company, so I would write to them as well. You should find a suitable letter on the Citizens Advice web site if you need it.

 

[chrisphoto]

Update
Thank you to all who have advised. The dealer seemed to have no intention of believing us about the damp and dry rot until 2 seconds after a technician started inspecting it and said yep it’s a biggie! That led to huge apologies and “bewilderment” as to how it could have been bought in, sold, PDId and delivered without being spotted. That in turn led to options being given - repair which would take 2 weeks after waiting 6 weeks for parts from Bailey, full refund, or upgrading to a newer caravan.

With open minds we went looking at the used stock and spent several hours with the sales manager going over different caravans. All of the Bailey Alutech 1 models on sale (4 caravans) were rotten underneath - cue even more jaw dropping when we pointed it out. One of the vans even turned out to be one our neighbour had part exchanged 2 months previously and so we knew it had had a factory rebuild at the front end only 14 months ago, but was rotten right through.

We eventually settled on a 2013 Unicorn 2 and had it inspected thoroughly by a technician with an ultrasonic damp meter. A small repair needs doing to the front where there are slightly elevated readings suggesting very early water ingress, which I am to be invited to inspect during the repair, and they guarantee it will be better than when built. Other than that it is bone dry and will have a 2 year unlimited warranty. The often reported leaking shower tray doesn’t seem to have been an issue with it. The reason for sticking with Bailey is that we just didn’t like anything else available in the 15k price bracket. Fingers crossed for a good one this time!

 

[Hutch]

Christophoto, I am glad as so will many others that you had a good outcome on this, It make me wonder about the pre delivery inspections that are done. I know that when I PX, ed my Sterling the dealer tried to say there was excessive damp around the shower skylight and wanted to pay me £200 less than agreed. I replied lets hook it up and I will take it home again, he suddenly realised he would loose a sale on a new caravan and his, commission, oh we will sort it out. Bet nothing was touched.
Well done though.

 

[Raywood]

Glad it worked out well and I hope the new caravan lives up to your expectations.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I also glad that the dealer has at last accepted the caravan back with no strings, I a do hope the outcome is as good as you hope.

I am still very concerned at the dealers response is a cause for concern, and the apparent zero knowledge of the extent of damp issues on their stock caravans. Heads need to roll at that dealership, and the directors need to be asking some very serious questions as to the capabilities of their staff, and their recruitment and vetting procedures.

 

[Dustydog]

I’ve come in late but as a long term Bailey man I am concerned
Are these particular Unicorns susceptible to rotting floors so early in ther lives?
We now move onto the Product Recall issue.
Will servicing , supplying dealers turn a blind eye and pretend no problem?

Should Bailey be taking a more proactive stance?

 

[Raywood]

It is not something I have come across but four out of four is a lot and makes me wonder.