Driving Licence B to BE Upgrade

Jul 22, 2014
329
0
0
Visit site
Suppose I passed my driving test after 1997 and have a B licence, limiting me to a total car+van mass of 3500 kg. Suppose then I wanted to tow with a total car+van mass of more than 3500 kg. I understand I'd need to upgrade to a BE licence. https://www.gov.uk/driving-licence-categories

What is involved in the upgrade? Has anyone done this? Is there a further driving test, perhaps with a heavy vehicle (Transit?) towing a heavy trailer (Hamburger stall? :lol: ) ? What further fee is charged?
 
Jan 14, 2017
34
0
0
Visit site
I did it last October, Tow vehicle being a Nissan Navara and a twin axle horse box on the back.
Minimum you need to do is the test in a suitable vehicle/trailer combination the test being a couple of "show me/tell me" questions, a reverse manoeuvre, unhitch and hitch exercise and a drive.

I took the 2 day training plus a couple of hours in the 3rd morning before taking the test; if you have some towing experience it's a doddle although a few before me messed up on silly things so it pays to be calm and take that extra couple of seconds to think about manoeuvres.

It's not cheap though if you do the training before hand
 
Mar 14, 2005
17,557
3,051
50,935
Visit site
DrZhivago said:
Suppose I passed my driving test after 1997 and have a B licence, limiting me to a total car+van mass of 3500 kg. Suppose then I wanted to tow with a total car+van mass of more than 3500 kg. I understand I'd need to upgrade to a BE licence. https://www.gov.uk/driving-licence-categories

What is involved in the upgrade? Has anyone done this? Is there a further driving test, perhaps with a heavy vehicle (Transit?) towing a heavy trailer (Hamburger stall? :lol: ) ? What further fee is charged?

Dear Dr.

Please be vigilant. The Governments web pages are not accurate. The have been written by someone who does not know about the difference between weights (which are measured variables) and weight limits (which are fixed comparator values). It fails to mention the fact that for some years, a Cat B entitlement not only limited the combine MAM to be less than 3500, but the trailers MAM must be less than the ULW of the tow vehicle. These can be critical details which drivers can fall foul of because the website is inaccurate.
 
Jul 13, 2008
11
0
0
Visit site
The requirement for the MAM of the trailer to be less than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle was removed for ALL B licence holders in 2013 when they revised the licences. This doesn't mean it is a good idea to do it! The information shown on the government website is correct.
 
Jul 27, 2017
1
0
0
Visit site
I took the test last year, I paid a local company for 5 hours tuition mainly practising the reverse then had a bash at the test. Luckily I passed first time otherwise it can get very expensive, I know a lad I work with who failed 3 times and was up to £2750 in lesson and test fees before he finally passed. I think my total came to about £350 including £115 for the test. There is not many companies actually offer the tuition for the B+E in my area but the ones that do normally offer an 'assessment' for about £50 then they advise how many hours you need. However from experience they advised me I needed 10 hrs after but I passed after only 5, I thought it was worth the risk due to the cost of the extra 5 hours compared to cost of the test. You'll find plenty of youtube videos about whats involved in the test. I now tow a swift twin wheeler with a vw touareg and the test is a distant memory :p
 
Jul 25, 2017
21
0
1,510
Visit site
How can you say the government is correct? The government is the main place you look at for any kind of driving?
I passed in 2013 and i will be towing a comination that is no more than 3500kg, as that is what is says on the internet.
 
Mar 14, 2005
17,557
3,051
50,935
Visit site
Handyandy1 said:
The requirement for the MAM of the trailer to be less than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle was removed for ALL B licence holders in 2013 when they revised the licences. This doesn't mean it is a good idea to do it! The information shown on the government website is correct.

Hello Andy,
I could go into a lot of detail but there are elements of the information on the Govt web site about licence entitlements that are wrong.

One of the underlying rights with licences is that new legislation defining groups and entitlements is not retrospective, consequently the rights that were awarded when you take you test remain with you for life. For those poor people who took their test between 1997 and 2013, Cat B limits the to a combined MAM does not exceed 3500kg AND the MAM of the trailer must not exceed the ULW of the tow vehicle.

see:

http://www.drivex.co.uk/driving-licence-info/#catb
 
Mar 14, 2005
17,557
3,051
50,935
Visit site
Benny123 said:
How can you say the government is correct? The government is the main place you look at for any kind of driving?
I passed in 2013 and i will be towing a comination that is no more than 3500kg, as that is what is says on the internet.

Benny
It is dangerous to believe everything that you read on the internet, you have to know how to check its validity. In the case of the government web site, you would hope they have it right, but in all honesty, the underlying acts of parliament concerning licences (which I have read) , are very complex and cannot be easily be described by a few words on a web page.

The link I have provided
http://www.drivex.co.uk/driving-licence-info/#catb

is about the most readable detailed explanation of the category requirement.
 
Nov 11, 2009
20,103
6,132
50,935
Visit site
1470kg. Your previous post in another thread re a Golf 1.9 TDI puts it at 86-% which is as near to 85% as makes no difference in the real world.
 
Jun 20, 2005
17,264
3,486
50,935
Visit site
LizziePope said:
Practical Caravan's very own Bryony Symes took and passed her test earlier this year! Please click here to read more.

All the best!

Well done Bryony :cheer:
You stood up a direct were counted so to speak.
Now you could be the Lass to join the Woosiefest and test a new Bailey of site at Riverside Stratford upon Avon :)
Well we can wish but you and your colleagues friends are very welcome.
 
Mar 14, 2005
17,557
3,051
50,935
Visit site
Handyandy1 said:
The requirement for the MAM of the trailer to be less than the unladen weight of the towing vehicle was removed for ALL B licence holders in 2013 when they revised the licences. This doesn't mean it is a good idea to do it! The information shown on the government website is correct.

Hello Andy,
I have contacted a professional in the field of driver licences. He concurs with me, that the changes made to Cat B in 2013 are not retrospective.

So it is still the case that if you passed your basic test between 1997 and 2013, you are still limited to a combined MAM of 3500kg, AND the trailers MAM must not exceed the tow vehicles ULW (Not kerbweight)
 
Jul 13, 2008
11
0
0
Visit site
Prof,

It is nothing to do with retrospective changes. It was a rewording of the B category which removed this clause. No matter when you passed. All grandfather rights still exist.

This change was very badly publicised and I am not surprised that 90% of websites and so called professionals don't know about it.

Please see the letter at the top of this thread on caravan talk.
B licence
 
Mar 14, 2005
17,557
3,051
50,935
Visit site
Hello Andy,

Have you looked at the underlying legislative document? Please do becasue you will see the 2013 change cannot be retrospectively applied, and it calls into question the comment by Darren Trollope in his letter. I have just written to the CEO of the DVLA the following letter

Mr O. Morley.
Chief Executive's office
DVLA Swansea
SA6 7JL.
29th July 2017

RE Category B driving licence entitlements
Dear Mr Morley,

I am a regular contributor to a forum about caravanning. We are receiving an increasing number questions that involve Cat B entitlements.

You will of course be aware that over time, the Cat B entitlement awarded with a basic driving licence have changed, and in particular the changes that came into force on Jan 1st 1997, had major implications for caravanner’s as new licences were not given Cat BE, but only Cat B.

The pertinent elements of the 1997 Cat B for caravanner’s limited drives to an outfit;

1. Of combined MAM not exceeding 3500kg,
2. And the trailers MAM should not exceed the tow vehicles ULW.

A further change in Jan 2013, removed the second part of 1997 restriction.

There is general confusion regarding the implication of the 2013 change, some parties believe it was a piece of retrospective legislation, but I can find no evidence of that, in fact the European Directive on Driving Licences (2006/126/C) has two very clear statements:

"(5) This Directive should not prejudice existing entitlements to drive granted or acquired before its date of application."

and

"Article 13

Equivalences between non-Community model licences

1. With the agreement of the Commission, Member States shall establish equivalences between entitlements obtained before the implementation of this Directive and the categories defined in Article 4.
After consulting the Commission, Member States may make to their national legislation such adjustments as are necessary for the purpose of implementing the provisions of Article 11(4), (5) and (6).
2. Any entitlement to drive granted before 19 January 2013 shall not be removed or in any way qualified by the provisions of this Directive."

These seem to be very specific about the 2013 provision not changing previous legislation retrospectively.

I bring this to your attention for two reasons.

Firstly in 2013 one of your department’s officers; Darren Trollope – Corporate Affairs Directorate sent a letter dated 8th July 2013 to an MP, in response to a constituents question. See;

http://www.caravantalk.co.uk/community/topic/87699-definitive-letter-from-d-v-l-a-re-b-licence-towing/
which directly contradicts the European Directive on Driving Licences (2006/126/C) I have identified above.

Secondly, the general public's the usual point of reference for licence entitlements is the Governments own web pages. These have several significant omissions about the way licences can restrict caravanner’s for example the 1997 limit on the trailer MAM not exceeding the tow vehicles ULW. And the use of the reference to “Weight”, rather than MAM.

We need to have clarity on this issue, particularly as caravanner’s are more likely to be operating close to the limits of licence and the mechanical abilities of the tow vehicle.

Please can you provide definitive and legally safe guidance on the Cat B entitlements and relevant dates, and can the Government web sites content be properly reviewed for accuracy on these matters.
 
Jul 13, 2008
11
0
0
Visit site
Good work Prof! Please let me know their reply.

I spend half my life reading this nonsense and the reason it has been possible is because does not prejudice any existing entitlement or rights but instead removes a restriction. It would infact prejudice 1997 - 2013 B holders if they didn't change it. If you investigate the B licence across the EU you will see we are in line, apart from not having the B96 entitlement. I can not understand why the industry is not pushing for this if it wants to survive. It was specifically brought in with caravans in mind. It will become more important they ever with the increased weight of hybrids.

Also going back to the unladen weight issue. They had no idea how to enforce if so this was another reason it was got rid of. Unladen weights are hard to find!
 
Jul 22, 2014
329
0
0
Visit site
The underlying legislation is clearly the ultimate arbiter. But if a Government web site and a letter from a Government officer to an MP are wrong interpretations of the legislation, no judge is going to punish someone for abiding by that web site or letter. If it came to it, I would expect the judge would deliver a strong reprimand to the Government department instead.

I say "if it came to it"; but I wonder how many caravanners have actually been stopped and prosecuted for being outside weight limits unless the case is blatant, and how many police patrolmen are masterminds on the nuances of this subject, even more so than DVLA directors, and while we earnest enthusiasts here cannot agree :unsure:
 
Mar 14, 2005
17,557
3,051
50,935
Visit site
DrZhivago said:
...I say "if it came to it"; but I wonder how many caravanners have actually been stopped and prosecuted for being outside weight limits unless the case is blatant, and how many police patrolmen are masterminds on the nuances of this subject, even more so than DVLA directors, and while we earnest enthusiasts here cannot agree :unsure:

Hello Dr.Z
In the case of licence entitlement infringements, because its based purely on the the cars and trailers specification values there is no difference between just over and miles over, the figures are not measurements and thus not subject to a margin of error, so it is one of the few driving offence that cannot be mitigated by claiming correct the measurement procedures were not followed or the system was out of calibration.

There have been instances at roadside inspections where a driver has been found not to have the correct licence and they have been prevented from continuing the journey with the caravan in tow.
 
Mar 14, 2005
17,557
3,051
50,935
Visit site
Handyandy1 said:
Good work Prof! Please let me know their reply.

... it has been possible is because does not prejudice any existing entitlement or rights but instead removes a restriction....

Hello Andy,

If the matter only hinged on on the word prejudice, then I can see your argument, but the killer clause for me is

"Article 13
Equivalences between non-Community model licences
.....
2. Any entitlement to drive granted before 19 January 2013 shall not be removed or in any way qualified by the provisions of this Directive."

Which it is my understanding prevents the new clause modifying any previous iterations of the regulations.

We will have to see how the DVLA unravel these in the context of the 1997 to 2013 test passes.

F.Y.I. - I have received an acknowledgement from the DVLA dated 4 August, and it is being investigated by the complaints team. If the Director was satisfied with Mr Trollope's interpretation I an sure I would have received a letter telling me so, but the fact the matter has been put through to the complaints team suggests to me there is doubt about the safety of Mr Trollope's letter.

We will have to see the outcome of the complaints investigation.
 

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts