EHU cable

[mealsonwheels]

................and still despite safety warnings, motorhomers and campervanners are going out for the day, leaving their LIVE EHU cable still connected to the supply bollard and the other end left dangling on something or laying on the ground uncovered. hmy:

 

[Damian]

Whilst I agree with your concerns, the risk is fairly minimal as the end not plugged in is the socket , not the pin end, and the contacts are fairly well down in the socket, and it has (or should have) a spring loaded cover, and it is IP44 rated for water.
It would take some serious effort to come into contact with the conductors.

The biggest danger would be to anyone cutting grass without noticing the cable.

Maybe the answer is for site wardens to remove any such cables and keep them in the office to be collected by the returning owner, during office hours , making it inconvenient for the owner and possibly getting the message across.

 

[WoodlandsCamper]

Maybe the answer is for site wardens to remove any such cables and keep them in the office to be collected by the returning owner, during office hours , making it inconvenient for the owner and possibly getting the message across.

Removing the cable from the pitch may make the pitch appear unused and therefore another van will take the pitch. hmy: Perhaps ALL campervan users should have a 'Pitch In Use' sign that you occasionally see.

 

[Dustydog]

Sorry to disagree Damien. This is a very dangerous practice a day contrary to all advice given by the Clubs.
We all know connect to caravan first, then plug onto EHU.
Disconnect from EHU first then caravan .
A young child playing could easily stick something into the live socket no matter how far in the contacts are.
That apart the entire site could suffer a major failure if a live wire was damaged and the main EHU breaker didn't trip first.
Sorry. But that's my view.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

Sorry to disagree Damien. This is a very dangerous practice a day contrary to all advice given by the Clubs.
We all know connect to caravan first, then plug onto EHU.
Disconnect from EHU first then caravan .
A young child playing could easily stick something into the live socket no matter how far in the contacts are.
That apart the entire site could suffer a major failure if a live wire was damaged and the main EHU breaker didn't trip first.
Sorry. But that's my view.

hi all.
couple of things to note here, getting your pitch or EHU connection taken while you are out as a constant problem for motorhomer's even if you leave things out on the pitch, had it done to us dozens of times, left signs, buckets, steps, and yes even EHU's some people have no regard for a pitch that doesn't have a van parked on it, even to the point of moving stuff so they can get on, will any of the neighbours tell them there is a motorhome using it, NO,
secondly what responsible parent would let any child especially one who is not old enough to know better, play with a bright orange cable on someone else's pitch,
thirdly getting the EHU cut by the gardener doing the grass is no more likely than any other EHU on site used or not, as the person doing the grass would be from the site and know exactly which pitches were in use.many sites have central bollards with multiple sockets cutting cables is not an issue,
and lastly how do you know the cable is live it may still be connected to the bollard but the MCB could have been switched off, prior to disconnecting the from the van.
also just my view, from a different perspective, :blink:

 

[Gafferbill]

.........for me it is simple.

Leaving an EHU cable connected on a pitch would mean that if anything harmful did happen due to my actions then I would be liable.

I don't want to go there.......so I wouldn't do it.

 

[emmerson]

If it bothers you that much, then simply unplug it!

 

[colin-yorkshire]

.........for me it is simple.

Leaving an EHU cable connected on a pitch would mean that if anything harmful did happen due to my actions then I would be liable.

I don't want to go there.......so I wouldn't do it.

with respect Bill that is true for anything you do on site like someone getting injured by walking or running into your A frame at night because you dont have a light on it, or a child falling onto one of your rock pegs [while playing] how about someone on the next pitch suffering an asthma attack due to the BBQ you have just lit.
all hazards we accept when on site, the fact of the matter is no matter who it is that decides to interfere with someone else's equipment has no right to be there.

 

[Gafferbill]

.......for what it is worth Colin both the major caravan clubs in the UK who between them run quite a few campsites have the same policy on this particular risk.

Caravan Club policy

Note for motorhome owners:
Please do not leave your mains cable connected
and trailing across the pitch when leaving the
site for the day. This is highly dangerous for
other site users.

Camping and Caravanning Club policy

Disconnecting:
When you are ready to leave, switch off the RCD in your unit. Disconnect the cable from the hook-up outlet socket on the bollard and then remove the cable from your unit. Owners of motorhomes must not leave their hook-up cable connected to the site bollard as a marker for an occupied pitch when temporarily off site. If you want to mark your pitch with the cable, disconnect it first.

 

[Jules_ht]

.........for me it is simple.

Leaving an EHU cable connected on a pitch would mean that if anything harmful did happen due to my actions then I would be liable.

I don't want to go there.......so I wouldn't do it.

with respect Bill that is true for anything you do on site

Yes, but if you've got a choice between a safe configuration and an unsafe (or less safe) one, why would you choose the unsafe one? You have the choice of whether to leave your BBQ (or oven!) lit when you go out, or put it out. Which are you going to do? How is this any different?

the fact of the matter is no matter who it is that decides to interfere with someone else's equipment has no right to be there.

If they are behaving responsibly. However if someone leaves their equipment in a dangerous configuration (not this specific example of a plugged in lead necessarily), I'd happily get the site owners to go and make it safe (for the safety of my little one) or do it myself if they were not around. One's right to have their property respected does not extend to endangering the lives of others (in a place accessible to the public).

 

[colin-yorkshire]

the fact of the matter is no matter who it is that decides to interfere with someone else's equipment has no right to be there.

If they are behaving responsibly. However if someone leaves their equipment in a dangerous configuration (not this specific example of a plugged in lead necessarily), I'd happily get the site owners to go and make it safe (for the safety of my little one) or do it myself if they were not around. One's right to have their property respected does not extend to endangering the lives of others (in a place accessible to the public).

I think one is missing the point somewhat, the thread was started over concerns that m/homes ect were leaving equipment namely EHU cables in a dangerous condition by leaving them out while off site,
the question for me is when does it become dangerous, answer when someone interferes with it, not before. it is not a case of well a child may play with it, more a question of why is a child playing with it, where are the parents what are they doing while their child in on someone else's pitch playing with a strangers equipment, see where I'm going,
it seems to me we always ask the wrong questions and jump to the wrong conclusions,
Bill said "quote".........for me it is simple.
Leaving an EHU cable connected on a pitch would mean that if anything harmful did happen due to my actions then I would be liable.
I don't want to go there.......so I wouldn't do it.
that is fair enough, but he and other caravanners have this big white box they leaves on site when they goes out and their gear [with luck] will still be there when they return.
others don't have this luxury, so please keep your kids off others pitch, keep them under control. and no harm will come to them. just remember you and your kids may well be on holiday, but so it the guy in the camper in the corner.

 

[Jules_ht]

It doesn't become dangerous at the point someone's child or the guy mowing the lawn gets electrocuted, it becomes dangerous when it's left in a state not compliant with published safety guidelines.

It's an open space with public access and as such you have a duty of care not to endanger others through your own negligence or recklessness.

Should, God forbid, the unthinkable ever happen, I don't expect the judge would be seeing it your way (and in any event it would seem foolhardy to rely on it when unplugging it and sticking it in the back, or switching the supply off at the pillar, are alternative options).

 

[colin-yorkshire]

the fact of the matter is an inanimate object is not dangerous until someone animates it, simple as that.
the biggest problem we have today is the mamby pamby theology, that someone else is always to blame.
example, it snows you clear your own path from the door to the gate, the postman slips on the cleared path it is your fault he got injured because you cleaned your own path. yet if you don't clear the path it is a natural hazzard and his fault he slipped, just crazy. here is one even crazier, a chap at work gets two fingers cut off, because he opened a machine gate while it was operating , now it is a mechanical machine and cannot be stopped by an electrical cutoff on the door.
so there is this big yellow and red sign saying danger do not enter while machine is working yet he got compensation anyway, why because the sign was in english and a foreign worker would not be able to understand the sign. made no difference the fact he was scottish, and there was no lock on the gate.
the HSE made the firm change all the company signage to include different languages and made them put a lock on the gates with only the manager allowed to have keys. this increased the machine down time by 500% and the firm went bust 2 years later making us all redundant just through one guys stupidity.
as Rhett Butler said in gone with the wind, " quite frankly my dear I don't give a dam" as for a judge well good luck,
I seem to be on my own on this, not unusual I suppose not being a mamby, pamby, sort, so I leave it there.
Rodger and out.

 

[Dustydog]

Colin Said
I seem to be on my own on this, not unusual I suppose not being a mamby, pamby, sort, so I leave it there.
Rodger and out.

Don't agree. Everyone on this forum is entitled to a view and it is these differences of opinion that make it enjoyable.
How many Red Buckets containing water do you see outside each caravan on a CC site ? Virtually none these days but as far as I know it is still a requirement. Seems to me they were only ever used for *** ends! The real answer is there probably isn't one B)

 

[Gabsgrandad]

Don't think it was a CC requirement, (to have fire bucket), but was always on C&CC site and I believe still is.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi DD, all I am trying to say is if I interfered with someone else's stuff and I got injured it would be my fault and and not theirs. can no one else see that, the worlds gone mad mate.
there used to be a affiliated club site in Devon that had a small lake, well a big pond really, one year a toddler fell in and nearly drowned, after complaints, the club wrote to the owner stating that in order to continue as part of the club for safety reasons he would have to fence in the lake, as this was a no go cost wise, he withdrew from the club, and turned the site into an adults only site. guess what he then had complaints from previous customers because they could no longer bring their kids to go fishing.

 

[Parksy]

hi DD, all I am trying to say is if I interfered with someone else's stuff and I got injured it would be my fault and and not theirs. can no one else see that, the worlds gone mad mate.
there used to be a affiliated club site in Devon that had a small lake, well a big pond really, one year a toddler fell in and nearly drowned, after complaints, the club wrote to the owner stating that in order to continue as part of the club for safety reasons he would have to fence in the lake, as this was a no go cost wise, he withdrew from the club, and turned the site into an adults only site. guess what he then had complaints from previous customers because they could no longer bring their kids to go fishing.

The law of unintended consequences almost always manifests itself one way and another Colin. Was a small child at fault for almost drowning, the childs parents or the site owner?
It is a parents responsibility to look after their child but can or would every parent look after every child to keep them safe from harm?
Clearly this doesn't happen, children still get run over, fall into water, hurt themselves one way or another.
I used to regularly visit a site which has high tension electricity cables across it on poles which at a glance resembled telegraph poles.
Imagine my horror when I saw a group of small children flying their kite directly underneath these HT cables!
Herself gently persuaded the kiddie winks that kite flying on this site wasn't a good idea and I told the (equally horrified) parents who didn't realise that rural electricity is often suspended from wooden poles, they thought that the wires were telephone wires.
Murphy's law is often closely associated with the law of unintended consequences, and as you probably know Murphy stated that 'If something can go wrong - it will go wrong'.
This is why the much maligned Health & Safety legislation came into being, it can be a nuisance but slight inconvenience is preferable to injury or loss of life.
In my early working life in a massive steel mill and later on in iron foundries I've seen two good blokes killed, several quite severely injured and the health of a great many ( including my own health) ruined.
That's why I, and I suspect many more like me who would never by any stretch of the imagination be described as 'namby pamby', are very much in favour of a more cautious considerate approach and would never dream of leaving an EHU cable plugged in and switched on if I wasn't there.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi Steve, to get back on topic, if you remember in my first post I wrote "and lastly how do you know the cable is live it may still be connected to the bollard but the MCB could have been switched off, prior to disconnecting the from the van.
I also have [when we had the M/home] left out he EHU with other equipment while off site, as to be perfectly frank some times it is the only way to save your pitch on a busy site, it is a massive problem, you only understand if [you have been there] and owned one, pulling the plug and leaving on the ground does not stop new campers plugging into the bollard while your away. been there done that, the neighbours wont tell them the pitch is occupied, and some wardens just shrug their shoulders and say "that's life" could that be the reason most big Motorhomes either carry a scooter or tow a small car behind,
quick question, on a safety aspect, how many members, turn off the bollard MCB before connecting the EHU, to the bollard and then when connected test the MCB with the trip switch on every site one visits I used to on every pitch we used. suprising how many faulty power points there are out there.

 

[Raywood]

The simple answer to this is that a live cable is a risk, probably a small one, but also one easily avoided. Have not the slightest doubt that if you leave a live cable when off site with a motorhome away and a child is electrocuted you could be facing a manslaughter charge. Given that any one leaving a live cable in these circumstances is a complete idiot or has not thought through the consequences.

 

[intransient1]

When I see this absolutely stupid practice I do disconnect the cable and I always report it to the site wardens.
While all my kids have grown up I would not forgive myself if my inaction resulted in a tragedy.
I love seeing children playing together safety on sites and having freedom to use their imaginations instead of electronic devices.
As responsible adults don't we all have a duty of care to keep our enjoyment a safe environment for all to enjoy.

 

[Phil.Q]

When reading through the thread there are several different points made, We feel qualified enough to comment on this subject from all sides of the fence.

1, We are campsite wardens.
2. I am a qualified electrician
3. We are also caravaners and customers of other sites.

So from the point of view as a customer and warden, the equipment of others should be left alone and not interfered with, then there should not be a problem in the first place, children are all to often unsupervised but I also believe that this is a camp site after all, and they should be safe and secure in that environment being able to run around and have fun on their holidays. Having said that, the parents should be in control and have a good idea of what they are up to.

As for my qualifications, the lead should be fit for purpose, double insulated with sprung cover on the unit end. The campsite power source should be a BSEN 60898 circuit breaker backed up by a 30 ma RCD. the tripping time for these devices is milli seconds therefore more than adequate protection for any "mishaps"
Something else whilst on this subject would be to encourage all people to fully unravel the leads to reduce the eddy currents and prevent fire.

As wardens we have pretty much seen it all and could write a book on the things that go on.
Unfortunately too many times we have seen children run amok whilst the responsible adults imbibe of too much alcohol. They have then been known to be aggressive when asked to reign in their offspring. Though a friendly warning from the warden to the children is generally all that is needed.
When using the ride on mowers we are in the habit of scanning the EHU points on empty pitches to see if a lead is plugged in. We do not wish to chop up leads or damage equipment.

 

[colin-yorkshire]

hi Phil, some people still don't get it !!.
let me put it another way, there is a spear stuck in the ground, you look at and think ah that's dangerous but it isn't.
if no one touches it, it could stand there 1000years and do nobody any harm, but as soon as someone picks it up it becomes a weapon, so I would ask where is the danger, the spear, or the the person that picks it up.
by looking at the spear in the ground and thinking it is dangerous is simply because you assume someone would pick it up. that is the dangerous bit.
if people left things alone there is no danger whatsoever. the problem is people not the inanimate objects.

 

[Jules_ht]

Ah, guns don't kill people, people do.

If you want to do stupid things like drive around without your seatbelt on, work under a car held up only by a jack, or balance a 3 bar heater on the edge of your bath, you help yourself by all means.

When it potentially affects others though in a place with public access, your own perceived right to do what the hell you like and blow what anyone else thinks, is of scant concern to someone else who wants to protect their children by keeping them in an environment made as safe as possible by all those using it (and at the same time knows that 100% 24/7/365 total supervision is neither achievable nor desirable).

The last thing ANY situation needs is people deliberately creating even slightly/possibly dangerous situations purely due to their own bloody mindedness (and a blindess to the fact it is their own actions creating the danger, not the 3yr old who wanders off, and steps on the cable someone else's kid damaged by riding over it on a bike 10 mins before).

Not sure there is a single person at all on this forum thinks it's unreasonable to expect you to either unplug or switch off at the pillar when you go out.

@Phil.Q, I'll defer to your professional judgement and will accept that it SHOULD be a BSEN 60898 circuit breaker backed up by a 30 ma RCD. That doesn't mean it is though. The cable SHOULD also be undamaged and have a sprung end too- but again that doesn't mean it is and that it does.

Theoretical question for you; someone staying on the site you marshal comes and mentions that a camper has driven off and left their lead live and asks that you make it safe as they have kids paying in the vague vicinity. Do you go and switch the pillar off, or tell them to stop being so silly it's perfectly safe/that their kids shouldn't be playing there so it's their own lookout (perhaps bearing in mind that your actions would certainly be scrutinised in court later in the event of an unfortunate & unforeseen accident)?

What if no-one says anything but you see one plugged in and live (again given that if it comes to light that you knew it was live you would be expected to explain your actions)?

 

[Phil.Q]

Hi Jules,

Thank you for your comments and I would answer thus.

When I patrol the site it is standard practice to make safe ANY situation that has a potential to cause harm.
As I did last week when putting out a fire in a wheelie bin caused by somebody throwing hot BBQ coals into it.
Not all people are responsible.
This includes unplugging the offending lead that may be a hazard as I have previously stated.

"we are in the habit of scanning the EHU points on empty pitches to see if a lead is plugged in"

The only thing I did not say is that we disconnect them coil them up and hang on the post for the customer. We find that once this has been done, the next time that customer goes out they generally do the same and hang it on the post. Potential for harm dissolved. Everyone is happy. I think this also answers your theoretical question.
To move on to my professional judgement, all sites are inspected to assure they comply to BS7671 standards, which are by far the most stringent in the world, so if you are finding that a site does not have this in place do not use it and inform the local authority.

Also to quote Colin
"if people left things alone there is no danger whatsoever. the problem is people not the inanimate objects."
I also agree with this statement, however Colin, the concern is the children that are not aware of the potential danger.

To conclude and make it clear, I agree the leads should not be left energized and unattended.

 

[Parksy]

Sorry to disagree Damien. This is a very dangerous practice a day contrary to all advice given by the Clubs.
We all know connect to caravan first, then plug onto EHU.
Disconnect from EHU first then caravan .
A young child playing could easily stick something into the live socket no matter how far in the contacts are.
That apart the entire site could suffer a major failure if a live wire was damaged and the main EHU breaker didn't trip first.
Sorry. But that's my view.

hi all.
couple of things to note here, getting your pitch or EHU connection taken while you are out as a constant problem for motorhomer's even if you leave things out on the pitch, had it done to us dozens of times, left signs, buckets, steps, and yes even EHU's some people have no regard for a pitch that doesn't have a van parked on it, even to the point of moving stuff so they can get on, will any of the neighbours tell them there is a motorhome using it, NO,
secondly what responsible parent would let any child especially one who is not old enough to know better, play with a bright orange cable on someone else's pitch,
thirdly getting the EHU cut by the gardener doing the grass is no more likely than any other EHU on site used or not, as the person doing the grass would be from the site and know exactly which pitches were in use.many sites have central bollards with multiple sockets cutting cables is not an issue,
and lastly how do you know the cable is live it may still be connected to the bollard but the MCB could have been switched off, prior to disconnecting the from the van.
also just my view, from a different perspective, :blink:

Colin appears to hold a minority opinion in this case, and if signs, buckets and steps are removed by motorhome pitch 'usurpers' there's an equal likelihood that these same pitch stealers would remove an EHU cable which renders the action of leaving a hook up lead in place futile.
I suspect that most responsible site wardens would remove an ehu cable anyway as a matter of course.
I will be monitoring this thread to ensure that it remains polite and resonable, we don't want to go back to the bad old days of forum bear pit topics.