Electric tow cars or The elephant in the room

[ProfJohnL]

Just read that Lithium is classed as a rare element.
The major producers are Bolivia, Chile and Argentina.The boffins reckon there is enough to maintain supplies through to 2050. Let’s hope the South Americans don’t hold the world to ransom when we go full EV

You make a good point, and whilst high energy density batteries use Lithium, countries with the raw material might choose to profit from their fortune, However, the present research into batteries is finding other combinations of chemicals, some of which may eclipse Lithium's dominance. I remember reading about a technology that uses silicon in the form of glass which had some very promising characteristics, which could revolutionise charging, 80% in 5 min or less, and have a much higher energy density. Sand isn't likely to run out soon!

 

[otherclive]

Just read that Lithium is classed as a rare element.
The major producers are Bolivia, Chile and Argentina.The boffins reckon there is enough to maintain supplies through to 2050. Let’s hope the South Americans don’t hold the world to ransom when we go full EV

You make a good point, and whilst high energy density batteries use Lithium, countries with the raw material might choose to profit from their fortune, However, the present research into batteries is finding other combinations of chemicals, some of which may eclipse Lithium's dominance. I remember reading about a technology that uses silicon in the form of glass which had some very promising characteristics, which could revolutionise charging, 80% in 5 min or less, and have a much higher energy density. Sand isn't likely to run out soon!

There will be lithium recycled from old batteries. The world has lived for years with a situation where oil has been used as a key bargaining commodity. Viz OPEC. But the world didn’t end, although there were a few wars and invasions in that time.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Clive,

As you suggest Lithium, like a significant amount of the other components of the present LiFeO batteries can and will be recycled. The Lithium doesn't become degraded when it used in batteries so it's very worthwhile to recycle it.

However in the context of DD's comment, the world presently only has a small percentage of EV's and other battery derived storage solutions, and as the percentage grows the demand for raw materials will increase, so if sources are limited the greed of whomever controls the source is likely to push prices up.

I don't know how extensive or wide spread natural Lithium is across the world, but when prices are pushed artificially higher by a controlling company or country it begins to make extraction from more difficult places or lower purity more attractive, oil is a prime example.

Shortages of key raw materials or political or commercial pressures are a common catalyst for developments of alternative solutions. Sometimes the new solutions are better than the original, and we know there are many different organisations who are presently looking at more efficient ways of storing energy, not just electrical energy. LiFeO is not the only solution!

 

[Dustydog]

Hello Clive,

As you suggest Lithium, like a significant amount of the other components of the present LiFeO batteries can and will be recycled. The Lithium doesn't become degraded when it used in batteries so it's very worthwhile to recycle it.

However in the context of DD's comment, the world presently only has a small percentage of EV's and other battery derived storage solutions, and as the percentage grows the demand for raw materials will increase, so if sources are limited the greed of whomever controls the source is likely to push prices up.

I don't know how extensive or wide spread natural Lithium is across the world, but when prices are pushed artificially higher by a controlling company or country it begins to make extraction from more difficult places or lower purity more attractive, oil is a prime example.

Shortages of key raw materials or political or commercial pressures are a common catalyst for developments of alternative solutions. Sometimes the new solutions are better than the original, and we know there are many different organisations who are presently looking at more efficient ways of storing energy, not just electrical energy. LiFeO is not the only solution!

I’ve been out of action this last week which has given me a chance to read more about EVs.
The silicon application is a good point Prof. They will use it as the anodes which apparently increase the battery charge discharge x3.
The following article is an eye opener and very exciting. If these advanced charging rates can be achieved,the sky is the limit.

https://www.pocket-lint.com/gadgets/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-air

 

[Hutch]

Found this little bit in our wonderful governments information, that the unladen weight of an EV Does not include the weight of the Batteries,

 

[otherclive]

Found this little bit in our wonderful governments information, that the unladen weight of an EV Does not include the weight of the Batteries,

Wonder if the designers of Prince of Wales bridge et al allowed for that possibility in 2050 with Bank Holiday traffic loading it?

 

[Buckman]

Unladen, kerb weight and MIRO all seem to have different meanings in the UK.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Unladen, kerb weight and MIRO all seem to have different meanings in the UK.

I'm not sure what you're trying to compare them to? Just to be clear the terms you have identified all refer to different measurements, they are not measuring the same thing. Or are you suggesting that the definitions we use in the UK differ to definitions used elsewhere in the EU?

We know that kerbweight seems to be a movable feast, but both ULW and MIRO are defined in EU wide regulations and as far as I know the definitions are common throughout the EU. EU regs will differ compared to other parts of the world.

 

[Perry525]

It was the EU that forced our Labour Government to promote diesel vehicles.
It is the EU that are forcing the pace on pollution from road vehicles.
Yet heating by wood and gas produces more pollution.
But, that would not be an easy target.
Once we leave the EU, we can forget all their idiot regulations.

 

[Perry525]

The Earth moves round the Sun in an eliptical spiral, it takes 750,000 years to complete and return to where we are now. For the past 22,000 years we have been gradually moving from the last ice age, as we do the Earth is gradually getting hotter. There is nothing we can do to change this.
Eventually, the Sun will engulf the Earth. Long before that happens, life on Earth will cease.

 

[Parksy]

It was the EU that forced our Labour Government to promote diesel vehicles.
It is the EU that are forcing the pace on pollution from road vehicles.
Yet heating by wood and gas produces more pollution.
But, that would not be an easy target.
Once we leave the EU, we can forget all their idiot regulations.

......t takes 750,000 years to complete and return to where we are now. For the past 22,000 years we have been gradually moving from the last ice age, as we do the Earth is gradually getting hotter. There is nothing we can do to change this.
Eventually, the Sun will engulf the Earth. Long before that happens, life on Earth will cease.

I'm guessing that you'd be in favour of air con units being fitted as standard to British caravans then? B)
Seriously, we don't encourage the airing of political opinion on our message boards and we try to stick to relevant points which are connected with our hobby.
This is a caravan forum Perry, if you want to impose your political opinions on others please use a more appropriate website

 

[Perry525]

When you drive round London, you see thousands of roads where there are cars parked nose to tail 24 hours a day. People cannot park outside their homes, many homes have several cars. There is no way that there can be enough electric points for all these cars. Are these people to be deprived of their cars and to be made unemployed, because they cannot get to their place of work.

 

[ProfJohnL]

When you drive round London, you see thousands of roads where there are cars parked nose to tail 24 hours a day. People cannot park outside their homes, many homes have several cars. There is no way that there can be enough electric points for all these cars. Are these people to be deprived of their cars and to be made unemployed, because they cannot get to their place of work.

None of us have a dedicated petrol/diesel pump either, yet we manage. I'm not suggesting using an EV is as convenient as a conventional car, they will require different habits, and EV's may not be the only solution. There are already alternatives, such as Hydrogen power, and I'm sure other solutions will also be found. What I am certain about is whatever alternatives are used there will different pros and cons, and users will have to work out new use and storage strategies.

Incidentally, when/if we leave the EU, don't expect a sudden or significant relaxation of regulations. The vast majority are or will be written into UK law and regulations en mass without change.

 

[otherclive]

The Earth moves round the Sun in an eliptical spiral, it takes 750,000 years to complete and return to where we are now. For the past 22,000 years we have been gradually moving from the last ice age, as we do the Earth is gradually getting hotter. There is nothing we can do to change this.
Eventually, the Sun will engulf the Earth. Long before that happens, life on Earth will cease.

If your astrophysics is correct then the earths orbit must have changed somewhat to allow for the “ recent” rapid increase in global warming if it’s not contributed to by human influence.

 

[Buckman]

Unladen, kerb weight and MIRO all seem to have different meanings in the UK.

I'm not sure what you're trying to compare them to? Just to be clear the terms you have identified all refer to different measurements, they are not measuring the same thing. Or are you suggesting that the definitions we use in the UK differ to definitions used elsewhere in the EU?

We know that kerbweight seems to be a movable feast, but both ULW and MIRO are defined in EU wide regulations and as far as I know the definitions are common throughout the EU. EU regs will differ compared to other parts of the world.

I made s simple observation and I am at a loss what you do not understand about it? I never mentioned that I was comparing them to anything or are you trying to create discussion to demonstrate that you are more intelligent than any one else?

 

[Dustydog]

As the world will last at least another 2 million years I’ll keep caravanning
Tesco Cirencester have this week opened two charging points for customers use. They are free! Only to be used whilst shopping . There will be super fast chargers but a charge will be made.
A step in the right direction.
If the technical development in batteries and chargers continues as per recent articles there may be hope for an electric tow car in my life time. The hybrids have an attraction but for reasons unknown have a very low MTPLM ability.

 

[otherclive]

As the world will last at least another 2 million years I’ll keep caravanning
Tesco Cirencester have this week opened two charging points for customers use. They are free! Only to be used whilst shopping . There will be super fast chargers but a charge will be made.
A step in the right direction.
If the technical development in batteries and chargers continues as per recent articles there may be hope for an electric tow car in my life time. The hybrids have an attraction but for reasons unknown have a very low MTPLM ability.

A new Lidl’s has opened near to us and two charging points have been installed and I think that they too are free to use. Can’t say I’ve seen anyone using them, but heck it’s Lidl not Waitrose.

 

[Dustydog]

As the world will last at least another 2 million years I’ll keep caravanning
Tesco Cirencester have this week opened two charging points for customers use. They are free! Only to be used whilst shopping . There will be super fast chargers but a charge will be made.
A step in the right direction.
If the technical development in batteries and chargers continues as per recent articles there may be hope for an electric tow car in my life time. The hybrids have an attraction but for reasons unknown have a very low MTPLM ability.

A new Lidl’s has opened near to us and two charging points have been installed and I think that they too are free to use. Can’t say I’ve seen anyone using them, but heck it’s Lidl not Waitrose.

I’m now checking out Caravan sites near Tesco and Lidl for my EV tug to Scotland. With time on my hands this could potentially be a real fuel saver :cheer: Exciting times

 

[ProfJohnL]

As the world will last at least another 2 million years I’ll keep caravanning
Tesco Cirencester have this week opened two charging points for customers use. They are free! Only to be used whilst shopping . There will be super fast chargers but a charge will be made.
A step in the right direction.
If the technical development in batteries and chargers continues as per recent articles there may be hope for an electric tow car in my life time. The hybrids have an attraction but for reasons unknown have a very low MTPLM ability.

A new Lidl’s has opened near to us and two charging points have been installed and I think that they too are free to use. Can’t say I’ve seen anyone using them, but heck it’s Lidl not Waitrose.

I’m now checking out Caravan sites near Tesco and Lidl for my EV tug to Scotland. With time on my hands this could potentially be a real fuel saver :cheer: Exciting times

But what about all the extra weight you will have from shopping whilst you wait for your car to charge :S ?

 

[ProfJohnL]

Unladen, kerb weight and MIRO all seem to have different meanings in the UK.

I'm not sure what you're trying to compare them to? Just to be clear the terms you have identified all refer to different measurements, they are not measuring the same thing. Or are you suggesting that the definitions we use in the UK differ to definitions used elsewhere in the EU?

We know that kerbweight seems to be a movable feast, but both ULW and MIRO are defined in EU wide regulations and as far as I know the definitions are common throughout the EU. EU regs will differ compared to other parts of the world.

I made s simple observation and I am at a loss what you do not understand about it? I never mentioned that I was comparing them to anything or are you trying to create discussion to demonstrate that you are more intelligent than any one else?

Until your posting, so far in this thread ULW has been only been mentioned in the link to the Governments description. No one had mentioned MIRO, and no one has suggested or implied that ULW, MIRO or let weight were the same, So I'm wondering what may have prompted your statement, and whether it might need to be clarified or explained.

 

[Raywood]

From what I know drivers use the stop to have a meal on longer journeys although I suppose a hearty meal means you weigh more, so the cars weight still goes up.

 

[Dustydog]

From what I know drivers use the stop to have a meal on longer journeys although I suppose a hearty meal means you weigh more, so the cars weight still goes up.

Relax boys
Both Tesco and Lidl have customer toilets

 

[Gabsgrandad]

Never been able to 'pidl' @ Lidl !!!!!?????