Electrical Installation Condition Report - Necessary or not?

[Countrylass]

We have a 2012 Bailey Orion.
We have received a reminder about the annual service which is due in February. The body of the letter contains a paragraph about the above. It states that; "due to changes in legislation" the company must offer customers the opportunity to have the above EICR carried out - at a cost of £235.00 and that this should be done every three years.
It appears that only the consumer unit, the wiring (if accessable) and the sockets will be checked.
An awful lot of money for a fairly minor operation especially when much of it should be done as part of the servicing. Is this all necessary bearing in mind that the van is less than two years old? If we do not wish this to be done then we must "sign a waiver"!
Written by the husband of Country Lass.

 

[otherclive]

It seems very expensive. I have never had a van tested but I do check my sockets with a polarity/earth plug. But to answer your question no it's not part of the service schedules that any service center used by me have ever done. Neither of the Clubs nor any sites I have visited have ever asked for a EICR and its not a mandatory check purely advisory. Most site bollards are protected by MCB and RCD and your van has RCD too so fundamentally do you want to pay some £80pa for a piece of paper that is only really valid on the date of issue. The NCC would recommend even more frequent testing if you use the van a lot. What's "a lot"? I suspect the Electrical Safet Council felt the need for three yearly checks in order to keep members revenue up. To my knowledge no one has provided feedback on findings which might say 'actually5 years is adequate' that's the thing with these sorts of activity they never ease off if experience provides valid data to do so. Finally the tester will not be able to visually check all 240 wiring as so much is hidden. If anyone had done a professional risk assessment I guess that this recommendation would have sunk iin the mire. I'm not anti safety as I set up a company dealing with safety and environmental issues, but the needling concept of ever more safety without just cause irks me.

 

[RogerL]

A regular electrical check has always been recommended, but I suspect more to cover the caravan manufacturers' backside because I've never been aware of anyone having it done. The test certificate included with all new caravans is only valid for 12 months.
Over the last decade there have been suggestions that the regulations applying to static caravans and their sites should be applied to touring caravans but I'm not aware that's actually resulted in any changes.
The dealer's approach of requiring a waiver to be signed seems like bully-boy scare tactics designed to generate more revenue - I wouldn't want to use such a dealer!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Country Lad.

For reference check out the following web page
http://www.esc.org.uk/public/home-electrics/periodic-inspection-explained/

Its worth noting that the use of the word 'should' in the text, as that is a strong indication the text is only advisory and not mandatory.

A number of months ago the NCC circulated the industry with notice of this type of testing, and it met with howls of derision as a number of dealers were suggesting the cost to carry out these tests was in the order of what you have been quoted.

As far as I understand it is not mandatory to have the tests carried out. But the other side of the coin is that caravan site operators can if they choose ask to see a current certificate before they will allow an EHU to be connected. As Clive and Roger have intimated, so far we have not heard of a site doing this, and any site that started would soon find themselves on a back foot.

Now what you can do about it.

Quite simply you are the customer and until such time that PIR's become mandatory for private caravans it is up to you to tell the company if you want them to carry one out or not. Again it is up to you to choose if you want to sign a waiver or not. But I cant see what they can do about it if you refuse to sign.

For my own part I do think that some form of formal checks should be carried out on both caravan electrical and gas systems, for safety, but I am convinced the electrical PIR as set out by the NCC is far too invasive, and could be achieved perfectly effectively and economically.

 

[Dustydog]

Thanks for the link John.

My annual service three weeks ago included a full test of both the 240 and 12 volt systems including the earth continuity test etc.

I don't fully understand if there is a difference between what I get annually as opposed to this latest somewhat expensive check ??

 

[Damian]

Your van does NOT need a very expensive electrical check, that is your dealer " bending the truth", or simply telling lies.
The original certificate supplied with your van is valid for 3 years, and the NCC tried to scare people into having what were called PIR's, now called EICR's, made all the Approved Workshops attend expensive and useless "training sessions" and buy expensive test equipment when it is NOT required.

You do NOT have to sign any "Waiver",it is NOT legally required.That is just another contrick by the NCC to frighten customers.

It is advised to have the system checked but it is NOT mandatory, nor can it be enforced.
The scare mongering by the NCC included telling people that sites would not accept you on site without such a certificate.
The reality is that site owners do not want to see such certificates, have no intention of turning people away and losing business by a thoroughly ill thought out and pathetic attempt to scare the caravan owner into parting with yet more money.
The Annual Service checks out the electrical systems and this should be enough on its own.

Quote :
" I don't fully understand if there is a difference between what I get annually as opposed to this latest somewhat expensive check ??"

What you would get is a very basic trained person dismantling your sockets etc ,disconnecting all your appliances and sending a 500v test charge down your wiring to test its insulation properties, then hopefully not blowing anything up in the course of it.

 

[Guest]

If memory serves this came up a couple or three years ago?
First I think some site owner was under the impression his insurance was demanding he made sure vans had a valid certificate and that kicked of the disccussion after the OP was turned away from the site?
As for the cost, those who do it for a living in a house said the cost of £200 plus was in the realms of fairy tales!
And as for carrying it out, the likily hood was more faults would be caused by the testing than it found that were already there?!!

 

[Parksy]

When the question of PIR testing first arose on this forum there was a lengthy discussion which ran to well over 300 responses.
The NCC, which is a commercial organisatin, caused a considerable amount of confusion by trying to insist that these expensive and potentially damaging checks would be required by law, and that both main clubs would be turning members away from ehu sites if they couldn't produce a certificate.
I contacted the Midlands area representative of the Camping and Caravanning Club at the time and he told me that the club had no intention of turning away their members, the NCC were merely trying to drum up revenue after forcing caravan engineers to pay for their courses.
I'd look for a more honest dealers to carry out my servicing if I were you.

 

[RogerL]

When the question of PIR testing first arose on this forum there was a lengthy discussion which ran to well over 300 responses.
The NCC, which is a commercial organisatin, caused a considerable amount of confusion by trying to insist that these expensive and potentially damaging checks would be required by law, and that both main clubs would be turning members away from ehu sites if they couldn't produce a certificate.
I contacted the Midlands area representative of the Camping and Caravanning Club at the time and he told me that the club had no intention of turning away their members, the NCC were merely trying to drum up revenue after forcing caravan engineers to pay for their courses.
I'd look for a more honest dealers to carry out my servicing if I were you.

If this is all driven by the NCC increasing revenue from engineers by going on a course for an inspection that customers now won't pay for - shouldn't we all be looking to replace the NCC - they don't seem to be doing their members any favours let alone the customers!

 

[Surfer]

Please ask the dealer to supply you with a reference to the legislation they mention. They probably cannot do this so report them to the Adveritisng Standards for misleading information and also to Trading Standards.
I wonder if you could get the electric check done, pay by CC and then claim back due to "intimidation" and false advertising? The dealer will have a hard time proving otherwise and dare not let it get into the press.
As per Parksy, I wonder if that old thread can be dig up and revived? If I remember correctly I wrote to them to query it and the answer I got back was very non committal. In addiotn, someon on the thread approached them at the NEC show and asked them the question and apparently they did a lot of ducking and diving to avoid answering the question, however in the meantime they probably conned at lot of engineers to part with good money to get a qualification that was unnecessary although every qualification does help.

 

[Parksy]

If this is all driven by the NCC increasing
revenue from engineers by going on a course for an inspection that
customers now won't pay for - shouldn't we all be looking to replace the
NCC - they don't seem to be doing their members any favours let alone
the customers!

I'm not convinced that the NCC acts in the best interests of caravan owners at all times Roger.
The NCC are a trade organisation and in that sense one has to assume that they ensure that approved engineers are of the required standard but the PIR fiasco and the scare tactics that they tried to use showed them to be more interested in generating revenue than anything else.

As per Parksy, I wonder if that old thread can be dig up and revived? If I remember correctly I wrote to them to query it and the answer I got back was very non committal. In addiotn, someon on the thread approached them at the NEC show and asked them the question and apparently they did a lot of ducking and diving to avoid answering the question, however in the meantime they probably conned at lot of engineers to part with good money to get a qualification that was unnecessary although every qualification does help.

The main topic is Here, and there were other threads which also touched upon it.
I spoke to the NCC rep at the caravan show and he was adamant that the PIR inspection would be mandatory, but he couldn't explain to my satisfaction how it would be imposed on extremely sceptical caravan owners.
The NCC rep's reply is what prompted me to ask the C&CC.

 

[RogerL]

I'm not convinced that the NCC acts in the best interests of caravan owners at all times Roger.
The NCC are a trade organisation and in that sense one has to assume that they ensure that approved engineers are of the required standard but the PIR fiasco and the scare tactics that they tried to use showed them to be more interested in generating revenue than anything else.

I'm not convinced the NCC acts in caravan owners interests at any time - as you say, they're a trade organisation.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The Dealers who are NCC members and who have shelled out an arm and a leg to train their people to carry out RIRs will be looking for a way to make their training investment pay. So conveniently the NCC have been pushing for 'mandatory' PIRs.

Technically the legislation on calls for electrical appliances and systems only to be safe. The legislation does not tell you how to comply with that requirement. IN other words compliance with the act could be achieved by other less expensive means.

However the job of setting the standards is primarily give to the Institute of Electrical Engineers who publish the wiring regs currently in their 17th edition.

The regulations are widely regarded as comprehensive and offering best practice advice for installation and testing.

In the event of an electrical installation problem any guilt or offence can only be confirmed by a court. They will essentially rely on the IEE to provide evidence of best practice, but that does not preclude alternative strategies for defendants to show compliance with the Electrical Acts.

It is my opinion that if the NCC's interpretation of Periodic Inspection Reports were to be challenged in court, that the courts might consider the NCC's protocols to be overbearing and unrealistic given the historic very small number of electrical safety related incidents with caravan fixed wiring and appliances.

 

[GStockton]

Very true and factual post by Prof John l . I have just been back and read all the other 300 posts on the original thread.
Really wish this had not cropped up again. But to the OP your caravan is a 2012 model the original Installation CERTIFICATE is valid for 3 years a Report is not even required till 2015. Even then the wording on the certificate says a Condition report SHOULD be carried out not MUST.
PS I still have not done a PIR on my own caravan like I said I would 2 years ago.

 

[otherclive]

The NCC advice is that if the customer doesnt want the test carried out they "should be invited" to sign a waiver. As per normal practice invites can always be declined. Then if the Dealer wants to clear their yardarm, all that is required is for the Dealer to include "PIR test declined" on the service invoice. Honour satisfied!!!! If the Dealer is not happy then I would doubt their ability to provide good service and I would go elsewhere after letting the Service Manager know why.

 

[Damian]

The whole point in regards to the OP is that they should never have ben told they need any kind of extra testing on a 2012 van other than Annual Servicing.
Also the cost of £235.00 is absolutely ludicrous and totally out of order.
As for "recent changes in legislation" that is rubbish in itself.
There has always been an advisory that the electrics "should" be checked regularly, it has been in pretty much every edition of Electrical Rgeulations since they were first published.
However, "should" is an advisory and is not legally enforceable
"Will " and "Must" are legally required and there is no option.

 

[ProfJohnL]

......all that is required is for the Dealer to include "PIR test declined" on the service invoice. Honour satisfied!!!!

Hello Clive,
As PIR's are not mandatory yet, I would reject any invoice that included the statement above. The choice to have a PIR carried out is up to the client, not the dealer, and the inclusion of such a statement suggests that the client has refused a statutory action.
Such a statment implies the client has done something wrong.
There could be a number of perfectly legitimate reasons why a client does not want or need a PIR to be carried out, that is the clients perogative, and not for the dealer to assume.
Servicing packages usually use a tick box selection of featurs to be attended, These are opt in rather than opt out so all it needs is the PIR box to be left unticked.

 

[Damian]

The NCC AWS Service Sheet does NOT have a PIR check box.
To be more accurate it is not PIR ,it is EICR, and that does not have a chek box either, so there is nothing the owner needs to do, just say NO.

 

[otherclive]

......all that is required is for the Dealer to include "PIR test declined" on the service invoice. Honour satisfied!!!!

Hello Clive,
As PIR's are not mandatory yet, I would reject any invoice that included the statement above. The choice to have a PIR carried out is up to the client, not the dealer, and the inclusion of such a statement suggests that the client has refused a statutory action.
Such a statment implies the client has done something wrong.
There could be a number of perfectly legitimate reasons why a client does not want or need a PIR to be carried out, that is the clients perogative, and not for the dealer to assume.
Servicing packages usually use a tick box selection of featurs to be attended, These are opt in rather than opt out so all it needs is the PIR box to be left unticked.

john
i understand your line and haven't indicted in any of my posts that this test is a legal requirement. But some Customers aren't as confident in dealing with companies as some others are. Also there may not be another dealer to service that brand of van within reasonable distance. And whilst any NCC approved centre can service a van a Customer may not want a non franchise stamp in the service book. The Dealer is unlikely to turn away business if a Customer threatens to take the caravan elsewhere, but I once had a car main dealer insert onto my service invoice that Customer declined brake fluid change, which is probably more safety relevant than testing the vans electrics. It didn't bother me to see those words, why should it?

 

[Guest]

From what I now understand of approved tourer caravan workshops, the workshop is required to tell the customer of the requirement under current legislation to carry out an EICR every three years by a qualifed electrician.
If then it is declinced, it would seem perfectly reasonable for the dealer to then ask for a wavier as proof he has fulfilled his obligation.

Under the same heading, it is also a requirement to carry out a simple yearly visual inspection, this though can be done yourself or under a general service, as it does not involve dismantling or special equipment.

Very much I'd say, Insurance led as it will be these people insisting whether it's your van or your home?!

 

[otherclive]

I'm not sure it is insurance led as insurers assess the overall risk factors and then decide on the premium and requirements. I believe its a mix of the never ending quest for more safety without assessing the cost benefits combined with NCC drive for increased business for their members. Nowhere has there been any evidence that van electrics are a demonstrated concern.

 

[Countrylass]

A big thankyou to all who responded. They confirm my thoughts. We shall NOT be going back to this company.