Energy prices

[otherclive]

Look at it this way. Energy is being sold at .10p a kwh and is available for bidding, One of the Big Six bids at 11p, another bids at 12p and so on. No wonder smaller supplies hardly get a look in and have to bid at the higher price.
The other method is that one of the Big Six buys in bulk at a lower price and then sells to a smaller supplier and makes a quick profit on the excess they bought. The smaller supplier stands no chance in the bidding war with the Big Six.

That’s how markets work in areas other than gas or electric. The only way to stop it is by government intervention. France, Spain and Germany have taken action to try and restrict prices to users, but it’s only temporary assistance. Our fundamental problem is the unstructured and weak regulations of the British energy market. No one complained over the years of relatively cheap energy though.

 

[Buckman]

Our fundamental problem is the unstructured and weak regulations of the British energy market. No one complained over the years of relatively cheap energy though.

There are so many unnecessary regulations in the energy industry it would take hours or days just to read the book never mind the time trying to understand the regulations. Total joke!

 

[otherclive]

I haven't done a detailed analysis, but I have always believed that fixed rate deals rarely actually cost you less in the long run (unless you jump to a different provider).

As someone has expressed you may get what seems like a good deal initially, but when it expires and its time to renew, the new charge is disproportionately higher, So the savings you think you made in the first round, you end up paying back in the second deal, and as most of these deals are based on regular fixed monthly payment, so the companies estimate your fuel usage, generally in their favour, or despite having meter readings, they don't use them to revaluate your actual usage, and you can end up with a surprise excess demand at the end of the period.

I can see how some people like to be able to budget with a fixed monthly payment. but personally I prefer to pay for what I have actually used quarterly - but about a two years ago my electricity company was sold to another large supplier and they now bill me monthly, and despite having meter readers call round 2 or 3 times a year, virtually every bill is "estimated" rather than using proper readings.

Strange as we are with BG and pay £80pm. On 23 December they reviewed our account based on two years readings whilst at this house. They reduced our monthly payment to £53.77. Yet I inputted our meter readings on 20 January 2022 and BG now tell me that to avoid a negative balance of £72.48 in April 2023 the monthly payment should increase to £57.
We are quite happy to pay £80pm as it generally then gives us a chance to draw out some of the built up credit balance in summer and see it as a means of savings.

 

[Buckman]

I haven't done a detailed analysis, but I have always believed that fixed rate deals rarely actually cost you less in the long run (unless you jump to a different provider).

As someone has expressed you may get what seems like a good deal initially, but when it expires and its time to renew, the new charge is disproportionately higher, So the savings you think you made in the first round, you end up paying back in the second deal, and as most of these deals are based on regular fixed monthly payment, so the companies estimate your fuel usage, generally in their favour, or despite having meter readings, they don't use them to revaluate your actual usage, and you can end up with a surprise excess demand at the end of the period.

I can see how some people like to be able to budget with a fixed monthly payment. but personally I prefer to pay for what I have actually used quarterly - but about a two years ago my electricity company was sold to another large supplier and they now bill me monthly, and despite having meter readers call round 2 or 3 times a year, virtually every bill is "estimated" rather than using proper readings.

Strange way of analysing prices in the energy market? As time passes the cost of the majority of items increases and that includes the cost of electric so no matter which supplier you select, you will expect to pay an increase so unlikely that they will be recouping losses from a previous good deal as you have the opportunity to switch.

A domestic meter only has to be read once every two years so unlikely they will send out a meter reader 2 - 3 times a year as that will eat into any slim profits made by the supplier leading to them going into administration. A visit from a meter reader used to cost about £12 approximately 10 years ago.

 

[otherclive]

In our last house a meter reader would come every two years ostensibly to check the safety of the meter. But in nearly three years at this house there hasn’t been a visit. I just input my readings monthly on the due date. Might get a smart meter despite having appointments cancelled twice at short notice. The reason being that the amount of information available to monitor monthly usage and historical usage is now so restricted as to be useless. Alternatively if the annual bill stays below £1000 what the heck.

 

[Buckman]

In our last house a meter reader would come every two years ostensibly to check the safety of the meter. But in nearly three years at this house there hasn’t been a visit. I just input my readings monthly on the due date. Might get a smart meter despite having appointments cancelled twice at short notice. The reason being that the amount of information available to monitor monthly usage and historical usage is now so restricted as to be useless. Alternatively if the annual bill stays below £1000 what the heck.

Smart meters resulted in meter readers being dismissed saving loads of money. Now for the supplier to get someone to physically read your meter will cost the supplier a small fortune. If you request a meter read, that cost is then passed onto the consumer so you don't ask.
If you suspect that the meter is not working correctly and raise a complaint the supplier sends a meter operator who fits a device to the meter to monitor consumption. If no fault is found then the cost of the two visits by MOP is charged to the consumer so people are very wary of complaining about incorrect consumption as the MOP visit is not cheap as it is done by a third party and not the supplier.
Catch 22 springs to mind!

 

[Trevormc]

I also was with Together Energy and been moved to BG. There is another council that is part of Together Energy.

Trevor

 

[Raywood]

I think these people have lots of money and see an opportunity to make more.They don't make anything,just buy a tranche of electricity at a discount and sell it to you for a profit.Whenever their margins reduce or it costs them money they just shut up shop and disappear.

Not true these companies are losing heavily on every domestic account. Octopus said they are budgeting at a loss of £100 million this year on the supply. The cost to the companies are public and factual and there is no doubt the companies are all running at a loss on household accounts and are not keen on taking any others on. If like Buckman you have been transferred to BGas or any other company, there is no financial incentive to move as they are all quoting the same national tariff as they cannot afford to do anything else.
I can only assume that in taking on the customers of failed firms, BGGas has been given some compensation and possibly hope to keep some customers when the situation improves for them.

 

[Buckman]

there is no financial incentive to move as they are all quoting the same national tariff as they cannot afford to do anything else.

We have several generator and distribution companies in the UK i.e. SPOW, Npower etc. Surely it is not costing them each exactly the same to produce energy? Same with gas. Something is not right.
Strangely BGAS do not generate or distribute energy. They don't even supply energy to any homes or businesses as all they do is produce bills for either, yet they are still in business?

 

[otherclive]

Not true these companies are losing heavily on every domestic account. Octopus said they are budgeting at a loss of £100 million this year on the supply. The cost to the companies are public and factual and there is no doubt the companies are all running at a loss on household accounts and are not keen on taking any others on. If like Buckman you have been transferred to BGas or any other company, there is no financial incentive to move as they are all quoting the same national tariff as they cannot afford to do anything else.
I can only assume that in taking on the customers of failed firms, BGGas has been given some compensation and possibly hope to keep some customers when the situation improves for them.

The criteria to obtain additional support from BGs account support scheme are very tight. It is designed for those who are really financially under pressure. But it at least targets those most deserving of support. I was reading its criteria the other day.

 

[PTA]

You could always use Calor gas cylinders....Oh, hang on a minute............

 

[otherclive]

You could always use Calor gas cylinders....Oh, hang on a minute............

Or Camping Gaz R904 exchange refills for butane at £31 for 1.8 kg of butane, that’s what I paid last week.

 

[Dustydog]

Or Camping Gaz R904 exchange refills for butane at £31 for 1.8 kg of butane, that’s what I paid last week.

That seems expensive Clive. My workshop Calor fire 15 kg butane cylinder cost £45.00 last week. Did you mean 18kg? Very cheap😜

 

[otherclive]

That seems expensive Clive. My workshop Calor fire 15 kg butane cylinder cost £45.00 last week. Did you mean 18kg? Very cheap😜

No it was an exchange Camping Gaz R904 cylinder with butane. Its one I use for the Cadac bbq along with a patio gas propane. The Camping Gaz is more suited for the tent.

I’ve just made sure our gas bottles are full, cars kept topped up, two 5 litre containers, and lockdown (4 minute warning) cupboard replenished.

PS joking. 🤣

 

[Raywood]

We have several generator and distribution companies in the UK i.e. SPOW, Npower etc. Surely it is not costing them each exactly the same to produce energy? Same with gas. Something is not right.
Strangely BGAS do not generate or distribute energy. They don't even supply energy to any homes or businesses as all they do is produce bills for either, yet they are still in business?

The problem is that the companies buy in most of the gas and electricity and have to pay the going rate which is far higher than you pay them for it. In the circumstances all hey can do is charge the maximum they can which they do at the moment. Generating power using wind is far cheaper than you are paying but we use a lot of gas for this and the price of that has simply gone through the roof. I attach part of a letter sent to Octopus customers from their CEO showing the problem they have on price. Their is far more on their web site and most other suppliers sites if you want to look further into it.

"The key thing is this: the cost of the energy we’re buying on the global markets to supply our customers is three times higher than it was a year ago.

At the moment, customers on standard variable tariffs are protected from price rises until the Government price cap is updated in April. That means for an average home, we are currently buying energy for about £2000 and selling it for £1300. "

The simple fact is that the energy companies cannot at the moment do anything and it needs government action. Scrapping VAT and the green levy would help reducing an average bill by £220 a year but it is not the whole answer. The problem needs some political moves but the discussion of that is against the forum rules.

 

[otherclive]

We have several generator and distribution companies in the UK i.e. SPOW, Npower etc. Surely it is not costing them each exactly the same to produce energy? Same with gas. Something is not right.
Strangely BGAS do not generate or distribute energy. They don't even supply energy to any homes or businesses as all they do is produce bills for either, yet they are still in business?

That's an interesting comment about British Gas, who are part of Centrica who have gas, electric and nuclear outputs. Who supplies their gas and electric, and are they any different from Octopus, Bulb, Coop, Ecotricity etc for example?

 

[Buckman]

Or Camping Gaz R904 exchange refills for butane at £31 for 1.8 kg of butane, that’s what I paid last week.

We have the CV470 cylinders as got 4 for £16. We have two gas lamps and a gas BBQ in case of emergency. Also a gas camping hotplate, but still need EHU for Internet connection. LOL!

 

[otherclive]

We have the CV470 cylinders as got 4 for £16. We have two gas lamps and a gas BBQ in case of emergency. Also a gas camping hotplate, but still need EHU for Internet connection. LOL!

Thats a very good price as they can be anything between £9-12 each, and even Argos are £23 for four. Our local camping shop was £24 for four, but I can get 15% discount via CCC. Where did you buy yours from. I have a small camping stove that use 470.

 

[Buckman]

Thats a very good price as they can be anything between £9-12 each, and even Argos are £23 for four. Our local camping shop was £24 for four, but I can get 15% discount via CCC. Where did you buy yours from. I have a small camping stove that use 470.

We bought from Attwools in south Gloucestershire and got them when we purchased the gas BBQ although the two were not a "special". At Attwools you can bargain, at Argos you cannot bargain.

 

[otherclive]

We bought from Attwools in south Gloucestershire and got them when we purchased the gas BBQ although the two were not a "special". At Attwools you can bargain, at Argos you cannot bargain.

You must have bargained very well as they are listed at £7.95 each, which by a lot of other outlets is still a good price.

 

[Buckman]

You must have bargained very well as they are listed at £7.95 each, which by a lot of other outlets is still a good price.

This was last year in late Sept so getting to end of season. I doubt if we will ever get near that price again for the CV470 cylinders, but a CV470 cylinders last a long time.
I also managed to get a small discount on the Attitude 2go CV Barbecue that we bought due to end of season and saved about £20 and they carried it out to the car. 👍

 

[Buckman]

Update. Received email that we have now been transferred to BGAS. Cost per kwh has jumped by nearly 3p and standing charge and standing charge by .005p.
However based on historical data i.e. readings the cost will jump up to over £1600 per annum incl Standing Charge however BGAS have estimated that over the year it will be just over £120o.
This indicates that somehow our consumption has dropped by over 2000kwh per annum which seems to be a massive drop. I will need to keep a close eye on our readings over the next couple of months.
Hopefully somehow or other BGAS are correct.

 

[otherclive]

Update. Received email that we have now been transferred to BGAS. Cost per kwh has jumped by nearly 3p and standing charge and standing charge by .005p.
However based on historical data i.e. readings the cost will jump up to over £1600 per annum incl Standing Charge however BGAS have estimated that over the year it will be just over £120o.
This indicates that somehow our consumption has dropped by over 2000kwh per annum which seems to be a massive drop. I will need to keep a close eye on our readings over the next couple of months.
Hopefully somehow or other BGAS are correct.

I’ve had numerous goes at BG regarding their forward estimates of consumption. They periodically review our account and change the direct debit. We like to pay £80 pm but recently they dropped it without asking to just over £50 pm and gave us a pay back. Then surprise it went up again to around £57 based on the higher consumption over Christmas. So I’ve changed all back to £80 pm. Which then gives us a nice lump sum to spend in summer.
Their online complaint system though is much improved 😂

 

[Buckman]

I’ve had numerous goes at BG regarding their forward estimates of consumption. They periodically review our account and change the direct debit. We like to pay £80 pm but recently they dropped it without asking to just over £50 pm and gave us a pay back. Then surprise it went up again to around £57 based on the higher consumption over Christmas. So I’ve changed all back to £80 pm. Which then gives us a nice lump sum to spend in summer.
Their online complaint system though is much improved 😂

When I worked in the industry it was known that some of the Big Six would underestimate a customer's bill. Then when the customer came to switch, they were presented with a massive unaffordable bill so had to cancel switching. We came across this on several occasions.
This practice was curtailed to an extent when a new regulation stated that the customer could pay off the excess over a few months. However who wants to pay the new supplier and also the old supplier at the same time so easier to stay with the old supplier.
Very sneaky way of retaining customers and at the same time make the supplier look as if they are being generous!

 

[Dustydog]

Early last year we signed upto BGas on a two year fixed price. It includes the BGas boiler service and maintenance contract. £156.00 per month. That’s nearly double Clive’s 😥.Needs checking 🙀🙀