See on lunchtime news today it appears that the Prime Minister of Ireland has provisionally accepted defeat of the European referendum and that the "No" vote has won in Ireland. This now has scuppered the whole European policy that Mr. Brown has refused the British electorate a referendum on. The Irish have done the business for us - long live the Irish.
European referendum
- Thread starter colin(bridgend)
- Start date
Colin a little word of warning your celebrations maybe premature.
Just because the treaty might not be rattified that is no guarentee that this goverment will stop there implementaion.
And then probally add a few bells and whistles.
Just because the treaty might not be rattified that is no guarentee that this goverment will stop there implementaion.
And then probally add a few bells and whistles.
I was under the impression that should one member country vote against the treaty then it will not be implimented by the EU and no member state could over rule that doctrine.
Colin you are correct but only in the meaning of the words. It is my belief that come hell or high water and irespective of any name changes or ways of putting it across to us it has been decided that "we" just don't know whats good for us so we will be getting a European constition one way or another.
That was what was promised,Colin. But just hang about for a couple of days and you'll see all the Eurobullyboys try to ride roughshod over the masses.
In Ireland the government wanted a yes,the opposition wanted a yes,all fringe parties wanted a yes,the unions,the business leaders,all wanted a yes vote.
It has taken the down to earth common sense of the Irish people to make a stand and say 'Non'.
But I'm afraid that won't stop the politicos from wangling an eventual result in their favour.
The gravy train is rolling and God help anyone who tries to stop it.
Dave
In Ireland the government wanted a yes,the opposition wanted a yes,all fringe parties wanted a yes,the unions,the business leaders,all wanted a yes vote.
It has taken the down to earth common sense of the Irish people to make a stand and say 'Non'.
But I'm afraid that won't stop the politicos from wangling an eventual result in their favour.
The gravy train is rolling and God help anyone who tries to stop it.
Dave
XII and Dave & Dee - you are technically wrong but I must agree with both of you - this is how our democratically elected governments work for us. We put them in to act on "our" behalf but once in power - well that is another story. Therefore the question arises - What point is there in holding a referendum when the result will be ignored if it does not suit the politicians? Dictitorial rules OK - just look at Zimbabwe to see how effective it is.
Hi Colin.
Fortunately for us the Irish constitution,section 46, states that a referendum must be held on any proposal that will influence the governance of the country.
Unfortunately for us, we don't have such a line of defence - neither do the majority of European countries.
We are thus at the mercy of the pigs with dirty snouts to take us where they will.
God bless Ireland.
Dave
Fortunately for us the Irish constitution,section 46, states that a referendum must be held on any proposal that will influence the governance of the country.
Unfortunately for us, we don't have such a line of defence - neither do the majority of European countries.
We are thus at the mercy of the pigs with dirty snouts to take us where they will.
God bless Ireland.
Dave
This sums the EU up admirably ....
By Frederick Forsyth
I doubt if anyone in that ivory tower called West
By Frederick Forsyth
I doubt if anyone in that ivory tower called West
There's a general feeling over here that the Irish didn't know what they were voting against or else they wouldn't have been so thankless for the 4000 million Euros that Brussels has poured into the country over the years since it became a member of the EU to bring it to what it is now. The Irish government has successfully pocketed the praise for achievements that they were not responsible for while at the same time blaming all mistakes on Brussels. A case of passing the buck.
How patronising is that then? It may sound patronising but it is True. Come on look back to Ireland 40/50 years ago before the EU did pour 100s of millions into the country.
If we had had a referendom on the Constitution or Treaty, call it what you like. It was only going to be a No Vote, because like the Irish we would not have understood what we were voting on. Now I don't mean that to sound patronising, but I don't believe we have ever fully understood the EU. Our politico elite don't want us to understand.
If the EU had not been enlarged we would have had the situation of 100s of Thousands of Eastern Europeans knocking on the door to come in. If we had kept the doors shut they would have knocked them down. It was as simple as that.
If we had had a referendom on the Constitution or Treaty, call it what you like. It was only going to be a No Vote, because like the Irish we would not have understood what we were voting on. Now I don't mean that to sound patronising, but I don't believe we have ever fully understood the EU. Our politico elite don't want us to understand.
If the EU had not been enlarged we would have had the situation of 100s of Thousands of Eastern Europeans knocking on the door to come in. If we had kept the doors shut they would have knocked them down. It was as simple as that.
The reason why Joe Public, where the UK is concerned, has never understood the EU thinkings is that whatever political party has been in power they have only ever given us the need to know information - the so called benefits to our country but not the downside. I think that if the UK politician was to tell the truth and give us the full facts there would be HELL to play in both UK and Europe. No disrespect to Lutz but it appears to me that it is Germany and France who are trying to dictate and control the EU with little regard for the other member states.
Looking at this evening's news it now appears that they are going to ignore Ireland's "NO" vote and press ahead with the treaty - therefore both XII and Dave & Dee are both right in their predictions previously and we will have to accept what the DICTATORS say.
Looking at this evening's news it now appears that they are going to ignore Ireland's "NO" vote and press ahead with the treaty - therefore both XII and Dave & Dee are both right in their predictions previously and we will have to accept what the DICTATORS say.
Hi Frank.
Would you vote for something that you didn't understand? I wouldn't,not matter howmuch Brussels had given my country.
So what was all the money for? The betterment of that the country or to buy Ireland's compliance with whatever the despots of Brussels dictate?
If that's being thankless,so be it.
But my vote isn't for sale.
Dave
Would you vote for something that you didn't understand? I wouldn't,not matter howmuch Brussels had given my country.
So what was all the money for? The betterment of that the country or to buy Ireland's compliance with whatever the despots of Brussels dictate?
If that's being thankless,so be it.
But my vote isn't for sale.
Dave
The reaction of the Irish is understandable. The government did a poor job of telling the people what they are voting for.
It's not a matter of buying Ireland's compliance because Brussels never gave them any funds on condition that they would vote for the reform treaty. They received the funds well before there was any talk of a European constitution or treaty.
It's not a matter of buying Ireland's compliance because Brussels never gave them any funds on condition that they would vote for the reform treaty. They received the funds well before there was any talk of a European constitution or treaty.
Tell that to the politicians,especially our New Labour shower who keep biting the hand that voted them into power.
Dave
Dave
The way this is going you would think we had no say or votes in the EU. We have as a Country a lot of clout with the voting. I struggle to find any real injustice that has been forced upon us to accept. The EU is swings and roundabouts. If we don't like it we need to change it from within. Snouts in the trough or gravy trains are really housekeeping issues. It happens in most countries of the world ( this one as well), just our press likes to whiter than white when it suits them.
hi all
I don't see the problem either frank why are the tories making such a big issue out of the latest tidying up exersize after all we did not get a vote on the masstrict treaty or the any of the other treaties that we were signed up to or wether we wanted the size of europe expanded 3 times (including the irish) and the inclusion of the bankrupt states of the former ussr and east germany did we??.
the EU is a club like any other club you join pays the subs and accept the club rules and get a seat on the commitee that makes the rules thats how it is, like it or lump it, if you dont like the club after joining you can allways leave it.
but it must be a good club because no one ever leaves but most would join if given the chance. just ask king alex of scotland he wants independance so he can rejoin it as a full member instead of sharing ours.
colin
I don't see the problem either frank why are the tories making such a big issue out of the latest tidying up exersize after all we did not get a vote on the masstrict treaty or the any of the other treaties that we were signed up to or wether we wanted the size of europe expanded 3 times (including the irish) and the inclusion of the bankrupt states of the former ussr and east germany did we??.
the EU is a club like any other club you join pays the subs and accept the club rules and get a seat on the commitee that makes the rules thats how it is, like it or lump it, if you dont like the club after joining you can allways leave it.
but it must be a good club because no one ever leaves but most would join if given the chance. just ask king alex of scotland he wants independance so he can rejoin it as a full member instead of sharing ours.
colin
It must be a good club as no one leaves it ???
Give the British people a vote on it and see how big the majority to get out is .
Brown is too scared to have a referendum on the treaty as he knows the vote would be an over whelming no.
Hi Frank.
"We have as a country a lot of clout with the voting."
This treaty/constitution will remove our veto and reduce our voting power.
".....we need to change it from within.Snouts and gravy trains are really housekeeping issues."
Corruption is rife in the EU - fact.The auditors have refused to sign off the accounts for the past 13years.It will never be changed from the inside because those on the inside,the MEPs,become part of the corrupt machinery from day one.Take Neil Kinnock for example; anti-EU when a senior British MP. Look at him now.It's a family business for them!
Hi Colin.
You are absolutely right in saying that the EU is 'a club'.
Unfortunately it has become a club which primarily benefits its' leaders who are unelected and unaccountable.
"....the latest tidying up exercise..."
The only people to refer to the reform treaty in these terms are the MEPs. Colin,it's an awful lot more than that!
"....we did not get a vote on the Maastrict treaty or any of the other treaties that we were signed up to...."
The peoples of the member states were given a referendum over the original constitution treaty.The French said no.The Dutch said no.Blair daren't let the British people have their say,but it wasn't needed anyway.
This time,they've changed the title and shuffled some of the words around but the product is still basically the same.However,Europe's polital elite are afraid of a re-run in the voting so have not allowed their respective countries a referendum - all except for little Eire.They have it written into their constitution (sect46)that anything that can effect the governance of the country must be decided by the people.
No-one,certainly not the Irish,is advocating leaving the EU.
Merely curtailing the mighty powers of Brussels.A united europe is a marvellous thing with benefits for all,whether rich country or bankrupt country.
But the beaurocrats have to be told when enough is enough.Sovereign states must retain their sovereignty,not hand it over to Brussels without the will of the people.
Climbs down off soap-box.Goes to have a lie down in a darkened room.
Dave
"We have as a country a lot of clout with the voting."
This treaty/constitution will remove our veto and reduce our voting power.
".....we need to change it from within.Snouts and gravy trains are really housekeeping issues."
Corruption is rife in the EU - fact.The auditors have refused to sign off the accounts for the past 13years.It will never be changed from the inside because those on the inside,the MEPs,become part of the corrupt machinery from day one.Take Neil Kinnock for example; anti-EU when a senior British MP. Look at him now.It's a family business for them!
Hi Colin.
You are absolutely right in saying that the EU is 'a club'.
Unfortunately it has become a club which primarily benefits its' leaders who are unelected and unaccountable.
"....the latest tidying up exercise..."
The only people to refer to the reform treaty in these terms are the MEPs. Colin,it's an awful lot more than that!
"....we did not get a vote on the Maastrict treaty or any of the other treaties that we were signed up to...."
The peoples of the member states were given a referendum over the original constitution treaty.The French said no.The Dutch said no.Blair daren't let the British people have their say,but it wasn't needed anyway.
This time,they've changed the title and shuffled some of the words around but the product is still basically the same.However,Europe's polital elite are afraid of a re-run in the voting so have not allowed their respective countries a referendum - all except for little Eire.They have it written into their constitution (sect46)that anything that can effect the governance of the country must be decided by the people.
No-one,certainly not the Irish,is advocating leaving the EU.
Merely curtailing the mighty powers of Brussels.A united europe is a marvellous thing with benefits for all,whether rich country or bankrupt country.
But the beaurocrats have to be told when enough is enough.Sovereign states must retain their sovereignty,not hand it over to Brussels without the will of the people.
Climbs down off soap-box.Goes to have a lie down in a darkened room.
Dave
Quote the Yorkshire Tyke ..
"just ask king alex of scotland he wants independance so he can rejoin it as a full member instead of sharing ours".
Are you sure about that colin? More like it is too costly to leave the E.U. as we stand but an independent Scotland wouldn't have that cost, they would be out of the "club" and would have to negotiate entry for Scotland. I don't think thats Salmonds intention though. Pardon the pun but they would have escaped out of the E.U. scot free :O)
I agree with Dave, how strange that the Dutch and French were allowed a vote the first time but not on the same re-worded dictat. I wonder why? I think I know, because the Eurocats were running $h*t scared and knew that again it wouldn't go through.
"just ask king alex of scotland he wants independance so he can rejoin it as a full member instead of sharing ours".
Are you sure about that colin? More like it is too costly to leave the E.U. as we stand but an independent Scotland wouldn't have that cost, they would be out of the "club" and would have to negotiate entry for Scotland. I don't think thats Salmonds intention though. Pardon the pun but they would have escaped out of the E.U. scot free :O)
I agree with Dave, how strange that the Dutch and French were allowed a vote the first time but not on the same re-worded dictat. I wonder why? I think I know, because the Eurocats were running $h*t scared and knew that again it wouldn't go through.
Quite so,m'lud. And howabout the barefaced arrogance of the DiC,(Despot-in-Chief).S*d our own rules,we'll go ahead with ratification anyway.
Dave
Dave
"It's just not the done thing to bite the hand that feeds you."
Lutz. You may well be right, but UK politicians do that all the time to the electorate ;-)
I just love the Irish more and more and more.
Lutz. You may well be right, but UK politicians do that all the time to the electorate ;-)
I just love the Irish more and more and more.
On the News just now:
French president, Nicolas Teacozy (I think that's his name)has advised all other EU states to "push ahead with ratification".
Are these bl**dy people real or what?
Dave
French president, Nicolas Teacozy (I think that's his name)has advised all other EU states to "push ahead with ratification".
Are these bl**dy people real or what?
Dave
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