EVs changing the face of caravanning.

[Buckman]

There’s work being sponsored by various bodies to produce liquid fuels for vehicles and aircraft by using hydrogen and carbon dioxide. Porsche are investing significantly in the technolgy.

Here’s a link showing one such project based in Chile. The technology has been around for a long while. It must be old, as even I was involved in it in an other era.

Can wind, water and air combine in a new energy revolution? This Chilean startup wants to find out | CNN

Highly Innovative Fuels is building a $55 million test facility for eFuels using wind power and captured carbon, which is scheduled to become operational later this year.

edition.cnn.com

Synthetic fuels have been around for decades i.e. extracting from coal and converting to fuel so the Chile project is probably feasible in the long term, but again a lot depends on emissions when burnt
Hydrogen is probably the most environmentally friendly solution once they find a way to extract it at a reasonable cost. After all finding and drilling for oil, transporting it and then refining it for use also costs a lot of money.

 

[Raywood]

There is still a chance that by using synthetic fuels we can keep the ICE car but the progress will have to be rapid as otherwise the move to an almost all electric world will be unstoppable.

 

[JTQ]

There is still a chance that by using synthetic fuels we can keep the ICE car but the progress will have to be rapid as otherwise the move to an almost all electric world will be unstoppable.

The use of synthetic fuels in ICEs will still result in burning some of the combustion air's nitrogen to NOx, now a major player left in the polluting argument.
Unfortunately, NOx generation tends to increase as ICE engine efficiencies rise, something of a vicious circle.

ICEs I suspect can't in the longer picture, be other than delegated to an emergency role, pity in one way as their development was so technically interesting and the products so full of engineering "character", but just like coal burning steam locos are, a phase now moving into history.

The move to electric motivation is unstoppable and rightly so IMO, but again IMO the jury is out on if the directly rechargeable, ie the battery powered strand, will stand the test of time, I suspect that's doomed to be even more fleeting than ICEs were.

 

[RogerL]

There is still a chance that by using synthetic fuels we can keep the ICE car but the progress will have to be rapid as otherwise the move to an almost all electric world will be unstoppable.

The Germans have been producing synthetic fuel since 1919, indeed the Luftwaffe was dependent on it during WW2 - so the expectation of a big break-through is very limited.

 

[otherclive]

The Germans have been producing synthetic fuel since 1919, indeed the Luftwaffe was dependent on it during WW2 - so the expectation of a big break-through is very limited.

The breakthrough has been established but using synthetic fuels isn’t a good use of the renewable energy generated to produce them using H2 and CO2 then you reduce the cycle efficiency even more by burning them in an ICE. So as mentioned above they may be advantageous in some circumstances but not for mass mobility.

 

[Buckman]

The Germans have been producing synthetic fuel since 1919, indeed the Luftwaffe was dependent on it during WW2 - so the expectation of a big break-through is very limited.

The South Africans have been extracting fuel from coal for decades. Look up Sasol. There is a town called Sasolburg. The refineries are huge.

 

[ProfJohnL]

The breakthrough has been established but using synthetic fuels isn’t a good use of the renewable energy generated to produce them using H2 and CO2 then you reduce the cycle efficiency even more by burning them in an ICE. So as mentioned above they may be advantageous in some circumstances but not for mass mobility.

I generally agree that synthetic fuel will be needed for a number of niche purposes. One is definitely to enable vintage cars to be demonstrated and another is motor sport, and there may be specialist emergency uses, but I doubt its going to the main fuel for the masses in the UK.

However assuming there is a need for synthetic fuel then I much prefer it was produced using renewable energy rather than fossil fuels.

 

[Tobes]

I generally agree that synthetic fuel will be needed for a number of niche purposes. One is definitely to enable vintage cars to be demonstrated and another is motor sport, and there may be specialist emergency uses, but I doubt its going to the main fuel for the masses in the UK.

However assuming there is a need for synthetic fuel then I much prefer it was produced using renewable energy rather than fossil fuels.

Indeed. Production of petrol or diesel from coal is not really any more synthetic than petrol and diesel from crude oil. The refining process is not just a fractional distillation process, but also involves “cracking” long chain hydrocarbon molecules into shorter ones. Fundamentally the same process involved with coal.

Manufacture of synthetic fuel involves starting with hydrogen (ideally generated from electrolysis of water using renewable electricity), atmospheric CO2 and more renewable energy. In that way the generation of CO2 in an combustion engine is net neutral.

The drawbacks of the process are the continued production of NOx in combustion engines, the inefficiency of a combustion engine (though it’s definitely better to use these than fossil fuel) and the huge cost. The energy input to make and use synthetic fuel compared to using electricity directly via a battery and electric motor is enormous.

 

[Dustydog]

On Bailey Caravan Owners Club there’s a chap who has put his money where his mouth is.
”We are due to take delivery of a new Alicanto Grande Porto in May along with our new tow car: BMW iX M60: This will tow 2.5T with a range of about 180m when towing and without towing 360m (All Electric) Do any other members tow with an all electric vehicule?”
Can you take pills for range anxiety? Fair play to the bloke but will he be disappointed?
Here’s one of two overnight chargers at South Meadows Belford Northumberland. Not on a pitch but two parking bays . They are coming.

 

[Raywood]

That's a nice site we have used but I do worry what these sites might charge for the use of it.

 

[Dustydog]

That's a nice site we have used but I do worry what these sites might charge for the use of it.

They are operated by tokens which can be purchased from reception. The tokens cost £1.40 each and provide a 7 Kw / hour charge.
Not sure how that relates to mpg

 

[JTQ]

They are operated by tokens which can be purchased from reception. The tokens cost £1.40 each and provide a 7 Kw / hour charge.
Not sure how that relates to mpg

Hard to see it staying so "cheap" in view of even the domestic rate cap, as opposed to any commercial rate they are charged, being now 28p/unit.
Do EVs get some subsidy on running costs as well as purchase?

 

[otherclive]

Hard to see it staying so "cheap" in view of even the domestic rate cap, as opposed to any commercial rate they are charged, being now 28p/unit.
Do EVs get some subsidy on running costs as well as purchase?

No VED or any duties related to fuels although using domestic electric there will be the normal rates per kWh . But not aware of any specific subsidies related to running the cars.

 

[Dustydog]

I quoted the sites rate as of today.

 

[Hutch]

That's a nice site we have used but I do worry what these sites might charge for the use of it.

We used the site a few years ago, lovely, And at least they are forward looking at putting in Charge points. As I mentioned, closest one are in Alnwick 15 miles away.

 

[ProfJohnL]

That's a nice site we have used but I do worry what these sites might charge for the use of it.

As long as it works out less than petrol or diesel what the worry?

 

[ProfJohnL]

No VED or any duties related to fuels although using domestic electric there will be the normal rates per kWh . But not aware of any specific subsidies related to running the cars.

Free access to LEZ's...

 

[Tobes]

They are operated by tokens which can be purchased from reception. The tokens cost £1.40 each and provide a 7 Kw / hour charge.
Not sure how that relates to mpg

That’s pretty cheap for public charging @ 20p/kWh. Running solo, that would work out at about 4-8p per mile, depending on the car. For me it would be about 6p per mile. With diesel near me at £1.80 a litre, that’s £8.10 a gallon. So at 6p per mile I would see the equivalent of 135mpg solo, and about 70mpg to 80mpg towing.

 

[Tobes]

Free access to LEZ's...

That’s true for any EURO6 compliant car though too I think? But free access to London congestion zone, to be stopped in the next couple of years.

 

[Dustydog]

Free access to LEZ's...

I mentioned to SWMBO about free access to LEZs. Not amused 😉😉🤪

 

[Hutch]

That’s true for any EURO6 compliant car though too I think? But free access to London congestion zone, to be stopped in the next couple of years.

I pay £10 pa to TFL as son lives just on the latest border, of the outer limits, I could drive in for 10 miutes, buy being lost, if I don't pay, whack £xxx

 

[JezzerB]

Honestly I think electric will be fantastic for towing. I have always been v excited ! Still am.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Honestly I think electric will be fantastic for towing. I have always been v excited ! Still am.

The instant torque at zero RPM, and the inherent weight of an EV bodes well for them being tow vehicles. What surprises me is how modest some of the maximum towed weight limits of EV's are.

I am certain the caravan manufacturers must be concerned with the small tow load limits of current EV's and I wonder how they are going to respond. As someone else has said, if you could negate the need for a caravan battery and gas bottles, there could be a 50K weight saving.

 

[JezzerB]

Yes strange to me too. Is it battery weight v chassis strength? Certainly not lack of power.

 

[otherclive]

The instant torque at zero RPM, and the inherent weight of an EV bodes well for them being tow vehicles. What surprises me is how modest some of the maximum towed weight limits of EV's are.

I am certain the caravan manufacturers must be concerned with the small tow load limits of current EV's and I wonder how they are going to respond. As someone else has said, if you could negate the need for a caravan battery and gas bottles, there could be a 50K weight saving.

Didn’t someone post recently that a MB EV that he was interested in had 2.5 tonne tow load?