Eyesight - Night Driving

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Mar 14, 2005
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otherclive said:
Not sure what you mean by “legit bulbs”. Whilst Osram and Phillips are recognised manufacturers of light bulbs and their bulbs are presumably legit, ... Phillips Race Vision can be down to 200 hours or less which isn’t very much if you have many out of town journeys in winter.

Hello Clive,
I do know that both Philips and Osram do produce bulbs which are not road legal. They are sold to teh motor sport market, and are marked not for road use. I suspect the Philips Race vision are examples of illegal road bulbs.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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ProfJohnL said:
otherclive said:
Not sure what you mean by “legit bulbs”. Whilst Osram and Phillips are recognised manufacturers of light bulbs and their bulbs are presumably legit, ... Phillips Race Vision can be down to 200 hours or less which isn’t very much if you have many out of town journeys in winter.

Hello Clive,
I do know that both Philips and Osram do produce bulbs which are not road legal. They are sold to teh motor sport market, and are marked not for road use. I suspect the Philips Race vision are examples of illegal road bulbs.

Hello Prof
The Race Vision are road legal as Rally cars are used on public roads. But being run so hot the filament working life is accordingly reduced even though the wattage is the same as the standard OEM bulbs so heat into the reflector housings is not increased either. This all reminds me of my first real job as an apprentice with AEI Lamp and Lighting when I worked in the development labs to develop the new fangled quartz halogen lamps for automotive use. Highly attractive items to us motorcyclists with the poor 6 v systems. Despite the new lamps being under strict security you could tell who had fitted one to the motorbike by the appearance of a zener diode at the top of the fork yoke as part of a 12v upgrade. Happy days.
 
Sep 5, 2016
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Prof,
In last weekends Sun newspaper, Clarkson was at his best and that is Jeremy Clarkson the motoring journalist who Hates all things caravanning and at one time he was very popular on the Beeb, anyway my observation is if Clarkson happened to log on to the Practical Caravan forum he would have a birthday reading this thread about caravanners having problems with night time driving, that's what he does writes about caravanning most of the time in his column and not being very nice about metal boxes on wheels blocking up every road that he seems to travel on,
 
Jul 11, 2015
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ProfJohnL said:
Not sure what Camels comment is about? :unsure:

Having done a bit of research into the MOT for cars, as far as I have found the present test does not include any formal test of light intensity.

The only reference to intensity is the Main beams must be similar to each other, and the dipped beams must be similar to each other. But dipped and main beams can be different intensities. It is basically up to the mot examination technician to decide if the intensities are close enough.

UK Beam pattern requirements must still be observed by all types of headlamp light sources. This is checked by the MOT.

Within the current UK lighting regs, HID and LED bulbs are not mentioned, It is accepted that the absence of any mentions of HID or LED systems in the act of parliament technically excludes them from being used. But as the UK is aligned with the EU directives on vehicle lighting, new cars with manufacture fitted HID or LED lighting are permitted in the UK. These will be automatically self levelling and will also have some forms of wash wipe system to keep the outer lens clean.

It is accepted that self levelling suspension is one to satisfy the beam levelling requirement.

As it stands there is no legislation in the UK that permits just the replacement of filament bulbs with HID (and LED) bulbs in older cars. The reason for this is the beam reflectors for filament bulbs will not correctly collect and focus the the light from an HID/LED bulb.

It seems it is permitted to replace the bulb and headlight unit provided the unit is designed for HID/LED type bulbs. Obviously not all older cars will have HID/LED compatible headlight fittings available. It is also a requirement that if HID bulbs are fitted that too must be automatically self levelling and have a wash system to keep the outer lens clear.

See
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/408941/aftermarket-hid-headlamps.pdf

and

]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/schedule/5/made
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/schedule/5/made[/quote
LED do not have wash or wash/wipe fitted as standard, not even an option on Mercedes Benz cars with LED. On my new car with LED Intelligent Lighting System I was surprised there is no wash or wash/wipe facility as the recent inclement weather in concert with the very high and flat front end the headlights and the radar sensor both attract dirt moreso than previous saloon cars. The radar gives a warning when the sensors are covered in dirt or ice or snow as I found last week. I wash the headlights every time I de-ice the windows anyway as I use the warm water and squeegee method on both mine and my wife car. Now do the radar sensor too.
The fitment of wash or wash/wipe was a marketing ploy by manufacturers to sell 'upgrade' packages to UK buyers on cars fitted with bi Xenon lights. Continental market MBs for example don't have the wash wipe with BiXenon lights. The self levelling is also a combination of the rear axle sensor and the windscreen mounted camera on newer models. My 2 W221 E class cars had BiXenon with washers but no camera, the S and current GLE have the camera system, the S with BiXenon had washers, the GLE with LED has no washers.

Another thing with LED is the 'active black spot' this is basically the projection of the light beam has a 'black' or no light rectangle in the middle of the light pattern that doesn't light up the car in front in the 'body/window' area of the vehicle. Easier to demonstrate in the car than write the description. The LED lights also project light beyond and around the vehicle in front. The nearside lights the road edge and hedgerow. Headlights 'turn' as the steering wheel does. The 'range' and intensity of the lights changes as the camera detects oncoming lights or reflections from signs. The previous BiXenons also do the last bit. A brilliant advance in technology, except for the lack of washers.

Still doesn't deal with the fitment of dodgy light elements or misalignment.

Once legislation catches up, will soon have self driving cars. Not far off in mine as it can drive itself with the various systems that read road signs and adapt to posted speed limits, maintains distance behind vehicle in front, brakes if pedestrians cross in front, or vehicle approaches from the side or across front/rear, keeps in middle of lane, prevents pulling out if traffic in blind spot and lots of other bits. The missing link is if the vehicle behind doesn't have similar systems and the driver doesn't react to the car on auto.

In practice it works as I found on the M3 yesterday where the right lane had a pile up just ahead of me. Drivers driving too close together, well below posted limit. My car had sensed the traffic bunching, had intervened and slowed me, kept me in lane 1 as lane 2 suddenly stopped with the pile up well behind the swerving cars, operated my brake lights to flash and the hazard lights and switched on the emergency phone facility as it saw the events unfold. The pre safe impact system armed as indicated by the warning triangles in the door mirrors telling us prepare for impact as the seatbelt would tighten, seat backs move upright, head restraints rotate forward, airbags ready. Very clever, but stills requires full attention when driving, something the mangled cars in lane 2 evidently didn't do. Reassuring.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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KeefySher said:
ProfJohnL said:
Not sure what Camels comment is about? :unsure:

Having done a bit of research into the MOT for cars, as far as I have found the present test does not include any formal test of light intensity.

The only reference to intensity is the Main beams must be similar to each other, and the dipped beams must be similar to each other. But dipped and main beams can be different intensities. It is basically up to the mot examination technician to decide if the intensities are close enough.

UK Beam pattern requirements must still be observed by all types of headlamp light sources. This is checked by the MOT.

Within the current UK lighting regs, HID and LED bulbs are not mentioned, It is accepted that the absence of any mentions of HID or LED systems in the act of parliament technically excludes them from being used. But as the UK is aligned with the EU directives on vehicle lighting, new cars with manufacture fitted HID or LED lighting are permitted in the UK. These will be automatically self levelling and will also have some forms of wash wipe system to keep the outer lens clean.

It is accepted that self levelling suspension is one to satisfy the beam levelling requirement.

As it stands there is no legislation in the UK that permits just the replacement of filament bulbs with HID (and LED) bulbs in older cars. The reason for this is the beam reflectors for filament bulbs will not correctly collect and focus the the light from an HID/LED bulb.

It seems it is permitted to replace the bulb and headlight unit provided the unit is designed for HID/LED type bulbs. Obviously not all older cars will have HID/LED compatible headlight fittings available. It is also a requirement that if HID bulbs are fitted that too must be automatically self levelling and have a wash system to keep the outer lens clear.

See
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/408941/aftermarket-hid-headlamps.pdf

and

]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/schedule/5/made
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1989/1796/schedule/5/made[/quote
LED do not have wash or wash/wipe fitted as standard, not even an option on Mercedes Benz cars with LED. On my new car with LED Intelligent Lighting System I was surprised there is no wash or wash/wipe facility as the recent inclement weather in concert with the very high and flat front end the headlights and the radar sensor both attract dirt moreso than previous saloon cars. The radar gives a warning when the sensors are covered in dirt or ice or snow as I found last week. I wash the headlights every time I de-ice the windows anyway as I use the warm water and squeegee method on both mine and my wife car. Now do the radar sensor too.
The fitment of wash or wash/wipe was a marketing ploy by manufacturers to sell 'upgrade' packages to UK buyers on cars fitted with bi Xenon lights. Continental market MBs for example don't have the wash wipe with BiXenon lights. The self levelling is also a combination of the rear axle sensor and the windscreen mounted camera on newer models. My 2 W221 E class cars had BiXenon with washers but no camera, the S and current GLE have the camera system, the S with BiXenon had washers, the GLE with LED has no washers.

Another thing with LED is the 'active black spot' this is basically the projection of the light beam has a 'black' or no light rectangle in the middle of the light pattern that doesn't light up the car in front in the 'body/window' area of the vehicle. Easier to demonstrate in the car than write the description. The LED lights also project light beyond and around the vehicle in front. The nearside lights the road edge and hedgerow. Headlights 'turn' as the steering wheel does. The 'range' and intensity of the lights changes as the camera detects oncoming lights or reflections from signs. The previous BiXenons also do the last bit. A brilliant advance in technology, except for the lack of washers.

Still doesn't deal with the fitment of dodgy light elements or misalignment.

Once legislation catches up, will soon have self driving cars. Not far off in mine as it can drive itself with the various systems that read road signs and adapt to posted speed limits, maintains distance behind vehicle in front, brakes if pedestrians cross in front, or vehicle approaches from the side or across front/rear, keeps in middle of lane, prevents pulling out if traffic in blind spot and lots of other bits. The missing link is if the vehicle behind doesn't have similar systems and the driver doesn't react to the car on auto.

In practice it works as I found on the M3 yesterday where the right lane had a pile up just ahead of me. Drivers driving too close together, well below posted limit. My car had sensed the traffic bunching, had intervened and slowed me, kept me in lane 1 as lane 2 suddenly stopped with the pile up well behind the swerving cars, operated my brake lights to flash and the hazard lights and switched on the emergency phone facility as it saw the events unfold. The pre safe impact system armed as indicated by the warning triangles in the door mirrors telling us prepare for impact as the seatbelt would tighten, seat backs move upright, head restraints rotate forward, airbags ready. Very clever, but stills requires full attention when driving, something the mangled cars in lane 2 evidently didn't do. Reassuring.

I think that most OEM LED headlights sense oncoming traffic and adjust they beam accordingly. But lack of washers is a backward step particularly when driving in winter when you have salted and drying roads which quickly obscure the lenses. Having the car tell you your lights are covered in muck is a bit stable door and horse. But the technology of your car sounds amazing.
 
Nov 11, 2009
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Just perusing Amazon fora couple of new headlamp bulbs and I see that you can now get LED replacements (not EU road legal) for £20 the pair. This kit includes the power regulator, all connectors and two bulbs which incorporate fan cooling too. Not sure what the quality would be as Phillips equivalents are around £150 with Osram at £100. But theres no doubt that the boy racers will be upgrading to such bulbs, if they haven't already done so. May give up night driving and stay at nice hotels en route :cheer:
 
Aug 9, 2010
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Keefer, I agree with the prof, the technology sounds amazing, but what happens when it all goes wrong?
Yet another serviceable modern-ish car thrown away because a) its too expensive to fix, or b) nobody knows how to fix it.
 
Jul 11, 2015
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emmerson said:
Keefer, I agree with the prof, the technology sounds amazing, but what happens when it all goes wrong?
Yet another serviceable modern-ish car thrown away because a) its too expensive to fix, or b) nobody knows how to fix it.

The technology on my current car is widely available on new cars across manufacturers.

Wether it is 'new' is debatable. Example the short wavelength radar system has been in use in other applications for eons. Camera systems have been used for various applications, again for eons.

That's one of the advancements, where once it was exclusive to high end only, it is now widely available. Wether manufacturers fit it is another matter. MB in my case bundle up packages as that is how they charge a higher profit margin, than other manufacturers. It's also switch offable, so you don't have to use it in fully automatic mode.

What appears to be the cause of problems in early MB cars with the lighting system is mechanical parts like brackets holding sensors rotting and needing replacement on 10 year old cars. The camera systems can be recalibrated easily enough. Identifying the root cause is the key, something the yoof and their plug in computers don't necessarily realise, or the 'management' don't allow individuals to think as that is not in their job description.

Cars are only going one way, to autonomous driven ones. The systems on my current car are almost there. Getting used to them is making driving enjoyable again. On Sunday for example was able to laugh at the 3 cars that won the race to a stop at traffic lights 3 times in a mile whilst I just pootled along in comfort without having to stop. Another in the New Forest who raced to overtake me in a 40, then got caught by a mobile camera van a few yards further on ;)
 

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