Dustydog contacted me via email because due to a fault with his computer or ISP he can't read the later posts in the topic about SOGA in which he asked for advice.
This is a synopsis of quotes which reproduces the thread so that hopefully DD will be able to read it and reply to it:
This is a synopsis of quotes which reproduces the thread so that hopefully DD will be able to read it and reply to it:
Dustydog said:Further to all our discussions on SOGA here's
an e-mail , edited , from a good friend of mine. Clearly more
information is required. In the interim I shall welcome your initial
thoughts on whether it is worthwhile pursueing this any further??
Brief synopsis of the situation is as follows in an extract of the first letter I wrote to E Caravans:
Prior
to a planned 4 week holiday in Scotland departing on 8 May, the caravan
was serviced on 23 April. The engineer advised that there was a
problem at the front nearside corner where the floor and wall were
beginning to separate. I was aware that there was no warranty with the
caravan because the company Avondale had gone out of business in 2009.
As
a result of the report the caravan was taken to S Caravans on 1 May
2012 for repair. The caravan was collected on Sat 5 May 2012 and we
were informed that the repair was complete.
We
departed from home on Tuesday 8 May. By the time we reached Hopeman
(Near Elgin) on Friday 12 May it was apparent that the caravan was
becoming noticeably unstable and part of the front fairing had become
detached.
Consequently,
on the morning of Monday 14 May 2012 we took the caravan to S&D H, ,
Elgin, . They inspected the caravan and advised that it was unsafe to
tow because the side walls were separating at the front nearside corner,
the front locker had dropped and we should not continue our journey.
We left the caravan at S&D H and reported the incident to our
insurance by phone later that same morning. We emptied the caravan of
all of the contents, arranged storage for those that we could not fit in
the car and left on Friday 18 May 2012 to return home arriving on
Sunday 20 May 2012.
The
insurance company assessor reported that there was no sign of any
impact damage to the caravan body or wheels and concluded that the
damage was as a result of general wear and tear or manufacturing defect.
We
purchased the caravan from you on 28 Mar 2008 for £15495 and would not
have expected this type of fault within this timeframe. Consequently, I
am advised that under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 the caravan was not
fit for purpose.
I
would be grateful if you would take action to remedy this problem. The
caravan is still with S & D H who can be contacted on
I wrote a similar letter to my credit company as I used my credit card to purchase the caravan.
I
have written 5 letters to E caravans and 6 to the credit card company.
Both organisations say that there is nothing they can (will) do. I
have a copy of the Insurance assessor’s report which states that:
“there is no sign of any impact damage to the caravan body or wheels”
“the damage could be an inherent fault from the original construction”
“we would therefore conclude from our inspection the damage sustained
is as a result of general wear and tear or manufacturing fault/failure
of previous repair in the area”
I
also have a letter from S Caravans company who repaired the caravan
explaining what the problem was before they repaired it. The screws
fastening the side-wall to the floor edge had broken due to insufficient
thickness of the screws. I forwarded a copy of this letter to my
credit card company on 19 Dec and am waiting a response. I have not yet
sent this letter to E Caravans.
I
am now considering taking action in the small claims court but the cost
of the repair was estimated by the assessor in May 12 as around £4000.
The caravan has been standing in the yard at SD H in Elgin since may
last year so the cost may well have increased and thus be outside the
jurisdiction of the small claims court. Incidentally S D H stated that
they would not attempt to repair the caravan and refused to quote.
I would appreciate any advice you may offer.
Surfer said:Dustydog said:Further to all our
discussions on SOGA here's an e-mail , edited , from a good friend of
mine. Clearly more information is required. In the interim I shall
welcome your initial thoughts on whether it is worthwhile pursueing this
any further??
Brief synopsis of the situation is as follows in an extract of the first letter I wrote to E Caravans:
Prior
to a planned 4 week holiday in Scotland departing on 8 May, the caravan
was serviced on 23 April. The engineer advised that there was a
problem at the front nearside corner where the floor and wall were
beginning to separate. I was aware that there was no warranty with the
caravan because the company Avondale had gone out of business in 2009.
As
a result of the report the caravan was taken to S Caravans on 1 May
2012 for repair. The caravan was collected on Sat 5 May 2012 and we
were informed that the repair was complete.
We
departed from home on Tuesday 8 May. By the time we reached Hopeman
(Near Elgin) on Friday 12 May it was apparent that the caravan was
becoming noticeably unstable and part of the front fairing had become
detached.
Consequently,
on the morning of Monday 14 May 2012 we took the caravan to S&D H, ,
Elgin, . They inspected the caravan and advised that it was unsafe to
tow because the side walls were separating at the front nearside corner,
the front locker had dropped and we should not continue our journey.
We left the caravan at S&D H and reported the incident to our
insurance by phone later that same morning. We emptied the caravan of
all of the contents, arranged storage for those that we could not fit in
the car and left on Friday 18 May 2012 to return home arriving on
Sunday 20 May 2012.
The
insurance company assessor reported that there was no sign of any
impact damage to the caravan body or wheels and concluded that the
damage was as a result of general wear and tear or manufacturing defect.
We
purchased the caravan from you on 28 Mar 2008 for £15495 and would not
have expected this type of fault within this timeframe. Consequently, I
am advised that under the Sale of Goods Act 1979 the caravan was not
fit for purpose.
I
would be grateful if you would take action to remedy this problem. The
caravan is still with S & D H who can be contacted on
I wrote a similar letter to my credit company as I used my credit card to purchase the caravan.
I
have written 5 letters to E caravans and 6 to the credit card company.
Both organisations say that there is nothing they can (will) do. I
have a copy of the Insurance assessor’s report which states that:
“there is no sign of any impact damage to the caravan body or wheels”
“the damage could be an inherent fault from the original construction”
“we would therefore conclude from our inspection the damage sustained
is as a result of general wear and tear or manufacturing fault/failure
of previous repair in the area”
I
also have a letter from S Caravans company who repaired the caravan
explaining what the problem was before they repaired it. The screws
fastening the side-wall to the floor edge had broken due to insufficient
thickness of the screws. I forwarded a copy of this letter to my
credit card company on 19 Dec and am waiting a response. I have not yet
sent this letter to E Caravans.
I
am now considering taking action in the small claims court but the cost
of the repair was estimated by the assessor in May 12 as around £4000.
The caravan has been standing in the yard at SD H in Elgin since may
last year so the cost may well have increased and thus be outside the
jurisdiction of the small claims court. Incidentally S D H stated that
they would not attempt to repair the caravan and refused to quote.
I would appreciate any advice you may offer.
Sale of Goods Act:-
1
Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means
they must be as described, fit for
purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of
sale).
2 Goods are of satisfactory quality if they reach the standard that
a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking into account the price
and any description. Aspects of
quality include fitness for purpose, freedom from minor defects, appearance and
finish, durability and safety.
3 It is the seller, not the manufacturer, who is responsible if goods
do not conform to contract.
Can
we assume that the servicing and repair was done at the dealer from
whom the caravan was purchased? The warranty would remain intact for
the duration, i.e. 3 years from OPurchase adn 6 years for damp etc as
the warranty is between the dealer and the buyer. Regarding credit card this link may be handy.
They
need to pursue the dealer and ensure everything is in writing and sent
by registered mail. IMHO 2 letters should suffice before court action.
the 1st one outlininhg the problem and requesting repaire as per SOGA
and second one the Letter before Action giving them 14 days to respond.
Prof John L said:Surfer has pointed out the relevant provisions of the SoGA.
What is not clear is the age of the caravan. We are told it was purchased in 2008, but was it new or second hand at that time.
SoGA
applies for a maximum of six years (in England and Wales), and whilst
SoGA also applies to secondhand purchases, whether the time fully resets
may depend on the actual age of the caravan.
It would
for example be unreasonable to expect a second hand caravan of ten years
of age to have the same remaining life expectancy of a brand new
product. The test is what a reasonable person would expect. So I have
reservations concerning the long term obligation of a seller for an
ageing product.
Even if it were new in 2008, it is virtually 5 years old which means SoGA's time limit is expiring.
With regards who might be responsible and thus potentially liable, depends on the exact reason for failure.
As
the issue was first established well outside of the first 6 months of
ownership, the onus is on the owner to prove the problem was present at
the time of sale. I have to express my opinion that due to the passage
of time, providing that evidence will be very difficult, due to the
ravages of wear and tear. The stated reports suggesting the problem may
have been original, I think are not water tight, but they may help.
If
it can be proven the fault was present at POS, then the seller is
liable, even though it has been repaired. as suggested in the recent
thread on SoGA.
If the fault is indeterminable but
relates to the area and materials used for the repair, then in my
opinion, the repairers may be liable for failing to use adequate
materials and possibly for failing to identify and correct the damage.
That depends on the specific instructions that formed the repair
contract. If they are liable then it would lie in faulty design or
workmanship of the repair work.
With regards the role
of any credit companies, that will depend on which contracts they were
involved with. For example if the caravan was purchased using credit,
but not for the repairs, then their liability only lies with the
original purchase. They cannot be held liable for the repairs.
As
always I must stress that these are personal opinions and professional
legal advice should be sought if any action is to be followed.
Raywood said:I would agree with the Professors summing up of
your rights. If you are in Scotland SOGA rights are only five years so
you may need to be quick if that is the case. You may however be able to
claim time runs from when you could reasonably have discovered the
defect but that is a point I would not rely on without specific legal
adivce.
I think you will need to get an independant report from a
qualified engineer, if you are a member of either club they may be able
to help you or even the firm holding the caravan if they have a suitable
person there. The problem seems to be in the manufacture but the
repairer may have contributed to the problem if he only repaired part of
the problem and left you to go away with an unsafe caravan. That would
mean you could have a claim partly payable by the seller and the
repairer.
Given what you say I have some doubts the caravan now
has any substantial value and you should be claiming its current market
value plus the expenses you have incurred and inconveniance etc. That
should take you well over the small claims court level and at that point
you realy need a solicitor to advise you.
Prof John L said:Raywood said:You may
however be able to claim time runs from when you could reasonably have
discovered the defect but that is a point I would not rely on without
specific legal adivce.
Hello Ray,
One
of the corner stones of SoGA is the fact it relates to the contract of
sale and thus it runs from the point of sale, not from the point t first
use or discovery of defect. Consequently I think there is virtually no
hope of extending the sellers period of liability.
I
totally agree that to 'prove' the issue, an independent engineers report
would be required, but you would need very compelling evidence to get
any professional to conclude the fault was definitely present at the
point of sale bearing in mind the age and wear and tear that must be
present.
Commissioning a sufficiently comprehensive
report with conclusions will be a quite expensive process, and as there
is no guarantee of the reports outcome, I am fairly certain it will be a
very risky and costly exercise.
Even if the report did
conclude the faults were present at the PoS, the seller only has to
introduce some doubts about the conclusions to render it almost
worthless - for example if it were such a significant fault, it is
surprising it has not become apparent earlier in the life of the
caravan. - this automatically casts doubt on the strength of the experts
conclusions.
The seller could argue that if the fault
were so significant why had it not become apparent earlier, and if it
were noticeable earlier why did the owner do nothing about it thus
allowing the condition to deteriorate further - The owner has some
culpability for the scale and cost of repairs.
SoGA is a
potentially powerful piece of consumer legislation, and it seeks to
ensure that customers are not disadvantaged, but equally it does not set
out to unfairly advantage customer either.
I sincerely
hope the problem is resolved, but I have say there are several areas
that bring reasonable doubt in my mind as to the sellers liability. As
such I think it is unlikely a successful out come will result for the
Dusty's friend.
Surfer said:Didn't the Avondale come with a 6 year warranty
against damp? To ensure damp free, the body integrity needs to be A1,
therefore if an issue arises and servicing has been done as per
recommendations and the body splits in an areas, this may be deemed an
inherent fault as it is not suppose to happen. Just another way of
perhaps tackling the problem.
Prof John L said:Hi Surfer
Interesting thought but technically
what Avondale offered was not a waranty that the body would remain dry
for 6 years, but more to the point that they would gaurantee to repair
it, if it developed he presribed fault. It did perhaps indicate they had
a high expectation of caravans remaining dry for that period, but the
company went bump, perhaps ingress claims were part of their demise!
Obviously any guarantee offerd by Avondale Ltd ceased to have any value when the company ceased trading.
Raywood said:If the quote below is correct the fault is in
the manufacture so should prove the case. It is realy one that exceeds
the small claims limit and needs a solicitors advice.
I
also have a letter from S Caravans company who repaired the caravan
explaining what the problem was before they repaired it. The screws
fastening the side-wall to the floor edge had broken due to insufficient
thickness of the screws. I forwarded a copy of this letter to my
credit card company on 19 Dec and am waiting a response. I have not yet
sent this letter to E Caravans.
Surfer said:Prof John L said:Hi Surfer
Interesting thought but technically
what Avondale offered was not a waranty that the body would remain dry
for 6 years, but more to the point that they would gaurantee to repair
it, if it developed he presribed fault. It did perhaps indicate they had
a high expectation of caravans remaining dry for that period, but the
company went bump, perhaps ingress claims were part of their demise!
Obviously any guarantee offerd by Avondale Ltd ceased to have any value when the company ceased trading.
SOGA
gives you the 6 year protection so dealer would be responsible, however
OP had repair attempted by another dealer so will probably have issues.
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