Few more jobs ticked off my long list...

[steve2019]

As a mechanic I deal with cars and batteries (mostly lead acid type, non leisure) on a daily basis, I can honestly say I have only ever witnessed 1 battery disaster in all my 40 years on the job, (thankfully) however this actually happened.
A car battery was disconnected from its wiring terminals and one of the apprentices left it on charge overnight, he didn't notice the strong fumes coming from it the following morning, and he must have left the ignition switched on because when he removed the charger and reconnected the cars battery cables the small spark ignited the whole thing and the battery literally exploded.
luckily he wasn't hurt but it made a huge mess all over the engine bay.
batteries seem such harmless things until it goes wrong, 700 amps is an awful lot of current if things go wrong.

 

[Hutch]

Listen chaps, I don't want to start a range war here, and I'm sure Damian is correct in his reading of the regulations.
But, my Royale is now 41 years old. It has the battery mounted in a small cupboard in the kitchen, by the left hand entry door. There is one small vent in the floor, and the door is not sealed. It was built that way back in 1978, and has been heavily toured all over Europe by its three owners, of which I have been one for 21 years, and I'm still not dead!
I'm not saying Royale's way is right, but it was right at the time, and I see no reason now to change it.
But, as in all things, you pay, you choose!

There are hundreds of things that were OK on the day, but are not OK now.
Batteries in gas lockers , batteries in locations such as yours, gas lights, etc etc .
The problem is that any new installation must be done in accordance with current regulations.

Damian, I understand where your coming from, but if it's your own caravan and you are not doing it to sell as a business, venture, do you have to go by regulations, obviously a dealer could not sell it on, unless maybe " bought as seen".

Therefore as above, there are no regulations to make someone "upgrade " a caravan to latest regs, and I would think as such if some one decides to modify there own caravan it doesn't have to comply to regulations unless for sale at as a business. Or have I missed something, we can all work on our own electrics and gas if we wish.

 

[Damian]

Quote " I would think as such if some one decides to modify there own caravan it doesn't have to comply to regulations unless for sale at as a business. Or have I missed something, we can all work on our own electrics and gas if we wish."

No, you are way off here.

Yes an owner can work on anything in their own van providing it is only being used by them, and no one else, but ANY work must comply with current regulations.
If you lend or rent out your van to anyone else, including other family members then all work must be done by qualified engineers and certified.

For instance an owner cannot decide to place electrical items in a gas locker, or use unsuitable fittings for the job such as using solder joints on gas pipes.

It has absolutely nothing to do with a business.

The difference between owner mods and a business is that a business must have all work done by qualified engineers and certified.

So, whilst it is true that previous work, if done properly and certified in accordance with the then current regulations, does not need to be changed to comply to the new regulations, any new additions must comply.

 

[Hutch]

Quote " I would think as such if some one decides to modify there own caravan it doesn't have to comply to regulations unless for sale at as a business. Or have I missed something, we can all work on our own electrics and gas if we wish."

No, you are way off here.

Yes an owner can work on anything in their own van providing it is only being used by them, and no one else, but ANY work must comply with current regulations.
If you lend or rent out your van to anyone else, including other family members then all work must be done by qualified engineers and certified.

For instance an owner cannot decide to place electrical items in a gas locker, or use unsuitable fittings for the job such as using solder joints on gas pipes.

It has absolutely nothing to do with a business.

The difference between owner mods and a business is that a business must have all work done by qualified engineers and certified.

So, whilst it is true that previous work, if done properly and certified in accordance with the then current regulations, does not need to be changed to comply to the new regulations, any new additions must comply.

Thank you for your answer,

I Know people will still do there own changes . Depending on their Engineering competence, if I decide to keep my Coachman after 10 years then I will just service it myself.

 

[Damian]

Yes, people will do their own changes and sadly quite a lot that I see are downright dangerous.

As far as servicing goes, if you have the right tools to do the job, and are confident to do so, that's fine, but the cost of the various tools and testers is disproportionate to the number of times they will be used by the home mechanic, and all the sensitive tools such as torque wrenches and flue gas analysers must be calibrated every year.

 

[Hutch]

Very true, Damian but as a retired but still licenced Aircraft Grunt, " Engineers" as per my self, often watch an pick up my "mobile" engineer on items. I only have a service, in case I want to sell the caravan. The gas test as far as I can see is that it works. . Just for the service, and to see the gass flow. My last service stated the wind might have affected the test.

 

[ProfJohnL]

It's so long since I had my electrical ticket (16th edition) I and I do not recall the specifics about legality of carrying out DIY tasks on caravans. I was always more up to date with the regs, which set out that it was not a requirement for the gas fitting to be carried out by registered fitter, provided it was done by the caravans owner and for private use by the owner. Strictly that excludes any relative of the owner. As soon as anyone other than the owner set foot inside the caravan, the work needs to have been carried out by a registered fitter. If teh caravan is hired or loaned to anyone else it is tantamount to being a business so again the work must comply in all respects.

It was always the case the fitting had to be carried out in accordance with the prescribed methods for installation and testing, and that as Damian has suggested is not a likely event as the required certified test equipment is not cheap.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Very true, Damian but as a retired but still licenced Aircraft Grunt, " Engineers" as per my self, often watch an pick up my "mobile" engineer on items. I only have a service, in case I want to sell the caravan. The gas test as far as I can see is that it works. . Just for the service, and to see the gass flow. My last service stated the wind might have affected the test.

Would you disregard the law in connection with aircraft maintenance or repairs? Would you deliberately ignore the correct procedures or standards for any work you carry out professionally? As a gas engineer would you allow me to work on an airframe for which I have no qualification? What is different about the required regulations for caravans that allows you to work and not complete it it to the required standards?

 

[Hutch]

Very true, Damian but as a retired but still licenced Aircraft Grunt, " Engineers" as per my self, often watch an pick up my "mobile" engineer on items. I only have a service, in case I want to sell the caravan. The gas test as far as I can see is that it works. . Just for the service, and to see the gass flow. My last service stated the wind might have affected the test.

Would you disregard the law in connection with aircraft maintenance or repairs? Would you deliberately ignore the correct procedures or standards for any work you carry out professionally? As a gas engineer would you allow me to work on an airframe for which I have no qualification? What is different about the required regulations for caravans that allows you to work and not complete it it to the required standards?

A lot of work on Aircraft is carried out by none certified Personnel, and is then over signed by the Qualified engineer, on Private aircraft the work can be carried out by the pilot, who does not have to be a qualified Engineer. I cannot remember the requirements for home built aircraft, but they are just that, Frightening.

 

[Thingy]

A lot of work on Aircraft is carried out by none certified Personnel

Usually referred to as Crabs B) which is one reason we liked to jump out of them. Stood a chance of surviving.

 

[Damian]

Why is what happens with aircraft being drawn into this topic?
It matters not how many qualifications one has for aircraft, they are of absolutely no value whatsoever in relation to caravans.
I have all the qualifications for flight instruments , so what, they are no value in the caravan world as no vans have auto pilots or compasses,air speed indicators or altimeters neither do they have airframes and engines !!!!!

 

[Buckman]

Why is what happens with aircraft being drawn into this topic?
I have all the qualifications for flight instruments , so what, they are no value in the caravan world as no vans have auto pilots or compasses,air speed indicators or altimeters neither do they have airframes and engines !!!!!

However a caravan does have a frame and some have an engine in the form of a motor mover! LOL! :woohoo:

 

[Thingy]

However a caravan does have a frame and some have an engine in the form of a motor mover! LOL!

Agreed, but where an airframe gets the stress through flight, with a caravan, we get the stress thanks to the minkies that build them.

As for engines, what about the Motorgnomes.

 

[Buckman]

However a caravan does have a frame and some have an engine in the form of a motor mover! LOL!

Agreed, but where an airframe gets the stress through flight, with a caravan, we get the stress thanks to the minkies that build them.

As for engines, what about the Motorgnomes.

What about the stress on the caravan body travelling on some of our A roads with pot holes etc? LOL!

 

[Thingy]

And that.

 

[emmerson]

Over the twenty odd years I've owned my Royale I have done all sorts of jobs on it, including gas and electric. All have withstood the test of time, and whilst I have never loaned or hired it out, we do have lots of visitors in it, which, according to Damien is either illegal or dangerous.
Who's going to check it? And will it have to be checked for every visitor, every time?
I'd need my own inspector standing by 24/7.
The only time I can possibly see a problem is with insurance, but I have had two quite large claims on my van (agreed value insurance), and never had any checks, other than tyres.

 

[otherclive]

Over the twenty odd years I've owned my Royale I have done all sorts of jobs on it, including gas and electric. All have withstood the test of time, and whilst I have never loaned or hired it out, we do have lots of visitors in it, which, according to Damien is either illegal or dangerous.
Who's going to check it? And will it have to be checked for every visitor, every time?
I'd need my own inspector standing by 24/7.
The only time I can possibly see a problem is with insurance, but I have had two quite large claims on my van (agreed value insurance), and never had any checks, other than tyres.

Surely as insurance claim assessor would only be concerned with issues that have a bearing on the claim. So major damage or loss due to a tyre blowout wouldn’t be affected by your work in other areas of the caravan. Unless of course your hot tub and three piece suite overloaded the tyres.

 

[ProfJohnL]

I'm sorry Emmerson, but posts like your's worry me.

Ignorance of the law, is not a defense, in a criminal courts and, whilst I an certain of the present Gas failure to comply with the legislation is dealt with under Health and Safety processes which are taken to Criminal law.

Just today the Midlands news carried a report of a man and woman have been arrested on the charge of "manslaughter by gross negligence" Whilst I cannot specifically say its becasue they tampered with gas or other fuel supplies, the story implies they failed to properly maintain or use appliances in their house. So what you do or do not do with regard to maintenance can be held against you if some one is injured or worse.

Some people seem to have a perverse mentality that tells them, if an illegal act is undetected its ok, typified by people who habitually speed, or park on pavements, Undertake or tailgate on roads, use mobile phones whilst driving, drink driving etc.....They know its wrong, they know its antisocial, and they know it is a major unsafe practice that can cause serious or fatal injury to others yet alone them selves.

Simply using the concept that its been alight for so long, therefore it must be safe and legal is not a sound basis on which to live. Like Damain I have had to look at systems where well intentioned people have interfered, and without realising it have left it in a sub standard condition which could also be dangerous. Unless you have had all the training and have access to all the required test gear, it is easy to think a job is good, when in fact it may not meet the required standard.

I am personally not at ease with the way the Gas Regulations tacitly allow the owner of a caravan to work on its gas system. I do not know how that particular exemption came to be included in the GS(I&U)R, but it does not absolve the person working on the system to ignore the required standards for the work and testing before its used.

 

[Damian]

Quote " we do have lots of visitors in it, which, according to Damien is either illegal or dangerous.
Who's going to check it? And will it have to be checked for every visitor, every time?
I'd need my own inspector standing by 24/7."

It has nothing to do with " according to Damien is either illegal or dangerous." It is not according to me, it is the regulations which state that any van loaned or hired out must have the required certificates for both gas and electric.

Whilst owners may undertake any work on their vans and it be OK, when push comes to shove and an incident happens which can be attributed to wrongdoing by the owner, be prepared to face the music and stand by to get a very hefty fine and the possibilityof a prison sentence as well as any civil litigation by the relatives of the persons involved.

Again, whilst the rules are there, some decide they do not apply to them as they have this qualification or the other, which they deem to exempt them from abiding by the requirements.

I am in full agreement with Prof in as much as how on earth leisure vehicles may be worked on by unqualified people as far as gas is concerned.

I guess the message is that you can put your own life in danger but you cannot put other peoples life in danger, and in response to " And will it have to be checked for every visitor, every time?" then NO, of course not that would be impractical , an inspection and certification once per year is adequate unless changes are made or the system worked on in between inspections.

 

[JayTea]

Nothing to see here

 

[emmerson]

Sorry Damien, I should perhaps have said "according to the regulations".
Has nobody ever changed a plug, or a fuse? And did you have it certified?
I may not have certificates to prove it, but I am a reasonably intelligent chap with an awful lot of "life" experience, and am more than capable of modifying and maintaining my own vehicles, which I have done for many years, and will continue to do so.
You can decide for yourselves whether or not you wish to visit me in my van, or even pitch next to me!
I'm calling a halt to my part in this thread, because there is no way we are going to agree.As I have said many times on this forum, you pay, you choose!

 

[JayTea]

Nothing to see here

 

[otherclive]

So my next dumb question is can I fit vented batteries under the seating and vent them outside using the pipes that plug into the top of the battery without having to fit massive battery boxes?

I have 3 cars at the moment that have batteries inside and this is how they are built and sold by the manufacturers

Pic for reference

Interesting one. I had E30 BMW with battery in the boot. It did not have any vent pipe and was sat over the fuel tank!

 

[Damian]

It is no use comparing cars or any other form of transport with a caravan.
Different rules apply to each.
A simple answer to your question is that you will do what you will.
All that has been pointed out are the regulations, which if you choose to ignore you do so at your own risk.

Personally I don't care, it is not my van, not my problem.

All the other things that have been thrown into the arena, such as changing plugs fuses, batteries in cars etc are just red herrings, more than at Billingsgate fish market !!

 

[Thingy]

For Damian

Am I right in thinking you are a caravan service engineer. If so, at annual service time and you came across a customers caravan with the battery issues discussed in this topic, what would you put on the service report and how would you tackle the issue with the customer?

I agree that caravanners will always do what they want with their own property regardless of the sound advice they are given. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink.