Floor delamination advice

[Steveforrest78]

Hi all.

Have had some great advice on here with regards to my pump and thank to all that helped... all fixed now

My next job is the floor... its quite badly delaminated.... ive done a tonne of research and very happy to tackle the job myself... only thing is there are a stack of different types and brands of resin out there and could really do with some inpedendant advice on which sort to go for.

Some info as it may be relevent... quite a large area needs doing (about 2 meter square).... ill be repairing from the top rather than from underneath... and fairly certain that its only a delamination issue and not damp (i know if it turns out to be the latter it suddenly becomes a whole different job, at which point ill be back on here screaming for help)

So my questions.... should i go for the two-part resin or the one shot stuff ive seen.... and are there any particular brands you guys would recommend or avoid... and realistically how long after its been pumped in should i leave it before i start walking around in the van and sanding the remnants etc.... ive heard 24hrs but is that really long enough?

All help and advice appreciated. Steve

 

[Hutch]

I will follow this Steve as on my last service i had a "creaking floor"

 

[Steveforrest78]

I will follow this Steve as on my last service i had a "creaking floor"

The more the merrier... it doesnt seem like an overly difficult job... just messy... i just need advice from someone other than the bloke trying to sell me the stuff on which sort to get

 

[Jcloughie]

I think I read once that a possible problem might be expansion of the product misshaping the floor. One solution is to drill a matrix of holes right through and insert long thin bolts with penny washers top and bottom. When the jobs done fill the holes up with mastic.

John

 

[Damian]

This is the resin you need to use: https://ctaltd.co.uk/product/caravan-floor-delamination-repair-kit/

After drilling your matrix of holes , making sure you dont go right through the bottom floor plywood, start furthest away from the door and fill each hole until it starts coming out of the hole adjacent to it. Then hammer a dowel into every hole as soon as they are full.
Keep on until you have finished and resin is visible in every hole then leave it and do not go anywhere near it for 24 hours.

In this warm weather it will cure a lot faster so you need to have everything to hand when you start mixing the resin.

After 24 hours you can then cut back any raised resin and sand if needed.

 

[Steveforrest78]

thanks damian... thats exactly what i needed to know...ill get it ordered but im gonna hold off doing it until the weather cools a little. Cheers again. Steve

 

[Damian]

One solution is to drill a matrix of holes right through and insert long thin bolts with penny washers top and bottom

Now that sounds like a typical reply from the well known repairers called Bodgit & Runne

 

[Jcloughie]

Now that sounds like a typical reply from the well known repairers called Bodgit & Runne

You have taken my sentence right out of context. When the whole script is read, the purpose of the matrix of bolts and penny washers is simply to prevent the floor from swelling when the product cures. Agreed this may not happen depending on the product. But if it does, the floor will be ruined. The bolts are removed after curing.

Just how does that fit in with Bodgit and Run? In fact it is common industrial practice for similar situations. Another more traditional method is to drill the holes and thread binding wire through with a nail top and bottom and twist the wire to tighten.

What you described to fix the floor is no doubt correct. Never having done it I did not wish to offer my help. But I have read that expansion of the product is a problem which needs to be considered.

Do you have a better solution to prevent swelling?

John

 

[Beachball]

My caravan floor is solid but if it needed work i would take it to a caravan dealer who does repairs ( i am not saying that you cannot do the job ) but a piece of paper with some guarantee i would prefer ..

 

[Damian]

You have taken my sentence right out of context. When the whole script is read, the purpose of the matrix of bolts and penny washers is simply to prevent the floor from swelling when the product cures. Agreed this may not happen depending on the product. But if it does, the floor will be ruined. The bolts are removed after curing.

Just how does that fit in with Bodgit and Run? In fact it is common industrial practice for similar situations. Another more traditional method is to drill the holes and thread binding wire through with a nail top and bottom and twist the wire to tighten.

What you described to fix the floor is no doubt correct. Never having done it I did not wish to offer my help. But I have read that expansion of the product is a problem which needs to be considered.

Do you have a better solution to prevent swelling?

John

It may be well to use that method in other circumstances, but never on a caravan.

Using the correct two part resin there is no chance of it swelling, it is when people use other products that problems happen, like using expanding foam!!!

If there is any worry about the floor being misshapen then the way to deal with that is to lay polythene sheeting across the floor and place heavy weights , such as the spare wheel, etc to stop the problem happening.

In all the floor delamination jobs I have done, with the correct resin I have never had a problem with the floor being bowed by the fixative.

You say the bolts you mentioned are removed after curing........do you know just how strong the resin is?
You would never ever get them out again.

As for drilling through both top and bottom plywood layers is just making another weak point for water ingress, and that would never ever be used on a caravan floor.

 

[Hutch]

When repairing the roof and floor honey comb panels on Bell helicopter panels we use the system mentioned by Damian, but after a few repairs we have to reweigh the aircraft to make sure the "nose weight " was within limits for the pilots to sort out their C of G.

 

[Jcloughie]

It may be well to use that method in other circumstances, but never on a caravan.

Why, or why not.

Using the correct two part resin there is no chance of it swelling, it is when people use other products that problems happen, like using expanding foam!!!

Doing a little research shows that, as you say, modern resins do not expand. Indicating that in the past that was an issue, hence my suggestion.

If there is any worry about the floor being misshapen then the way to deal with that is to lay polythene sheeting across the floor and place heavy weights , such as the spare wheel, etc to stop the problem happening.

If a product is subject to expand then weights would not be sufficient.

In all the floor delamination jobs I have done, with the correct resin I have never had a problem with the floor being bowed by the fixative.

Excellent. There are YouTube videos showing the method you suggest and some pointing out the need for using a non expanding resin. For example

View: https://youtu.be/R-LIZN-Dtak
.

You say the bolts you mentioned are removed after curing........do you know just how strong the resin is?
You would never ever get them out again.

There only 6mm. One tap would suffice. But otherwise just grind them off.

As for drilling through both top and bottom plywood layers is just making another weak point for water ingress, and that would never ever be used on a caravan floor.

The strength of caravan floors (what little it is), is all in the sandwich construction. A few tiny holes is inconsequential in relation to the number of larger holes already there for services and vents.

I am a time served tradesman who has worked on many prestigious projects and successfully trained hundreds of apprentices. To be called Bodgit and Run is most insulting, particularly when that is done out of context and without understanding of the logic and reasoning behind the suggestion.

As I already stated, if the problem of expanding resin is historic and has already been sorted by the product manufacturers, then I fully accept there is not the need to add the restraints I suggested. But that does not make the suggestion any less valid.

John

 

[Damian]

You may well be all that you say, but as you also say you have never done a floor delamination repair on a caravan, so your experience is in totally different settings and nothing like a caravan and its quirks.

As far as logic is concerned, what is the logic in basically puncturing the lower floor ply, which is subject to getting wet, with a load of holes?? Especially as many have a waterproof membrane running the whole length.
Then, logically, how do you remove a load of rods which are bonded so tight with resin out again? leaving tubes through the whole thickness of the floor??

As for the expanding of the medium used to repair the floor, that only happen when people who are either too tight to purchase the correct resin and opt to go with a £3 tube of expanding foam or one of the other cheap products which are not suitable for the job.

Sorry to disappoint, but your suggestion is totally invalid as far as caravans are concerned, and as I have already said, would never be used, and never has been used .

You ask : "
It may be well to use that method in other circumstances, but never on a caravan.

"Why, or why not."

Because it is inappropriate for use on a caravan floor.

I have given the correct advice as to how to deal with delamination and that is all I have to say about it.
What anyone takes away from that information is up to them, but if they want a successful repair they will take that advice, and use the correct resin and method.

 

[Jcloughie]

The more the merrier... it doesnt seem like an overly difficult job... just messy... i just need advice from someone other than the bloke trying to sell me the stuff on which sort to get

Hi Steveforrest78

Wonder if you have tried to do this job yet. Looking through YouTube there are plenty of examples and all seem to be using the method Damian suggested which seems simple enough. However, some make a real mess of it so if you do look, then look through a few for ideas.

further to my first advice. Seems I was out of date, although I do know that swelling was a problem in the past but it seems the manufactures now make a stable product and may have for a long time for all I know. So perhaps not a bad idea to make sure you get a 'non expanding' resin.

Personally if I was dong it, I would still add some restraints as I suggested to be on the safe side, but that just me making doubly sure.

I have not come back to this post, or the forum for that matter, after receiving the unfounded insults from Damian because I was taken aback and shocked. I am more than happy for anyone to disagree with me, but I would never consider issuing insults to others and don't expect them to be handed out to me, in particular from a moderator.

What I suggested is not outlandish, has been used in different forms for more years than I know, I was certainly taught it as an apprentice. It is a safeguard and would not cause harm. Just needs minds open to new ideas (to them). We can all learn.

John

 

[Damian]

I have not come back to this post, or the forum for that matter, after receiving the unfounded insults from Damian because I was taken aback and shocked. I am more than happy for anyone to disagree with me, but I would never consider issuing insults to others and don't expect them to be handed out to me, in particular from a moderator.

What I suggested is not outlandish, has been used in different forms for more years than I know, I was certainly taught it as an apprentice. It is a safeguard and would not cause harm. Just needs minds open to new ideas (to them). We can all learn.

Oh yes? really?????? where did I insult you , or did you take the reference to Bogit and Runne as an affront to you?

Secondly when I post in this colour I am as any other user and am entitled to my view, as a long time caravan engineer to voice my opinion.

As you later said you have NEVER done a delam repair, so basically you have no idea what is involved or what is the correct thing to do or use .

What you suggested actually IS outlandish as far as a caravan is concerned, and just because you were taught something as an apprentice does not make that the right thing to do in the circumstances described.

 

[Hutch]

Steady on lads I have carried out delamination repairs to aircraft Panels and to helicopter rotor blades, some you have to fit bolts to keep the top and lower panels to dimension limits the bolts are then unscrewed and the holes filled. So you are, both correct but many ways to repair a certain fault.

 

[Jcloughie]

Oh yes? really?????? where did I insult you , or did you take the reference to Bogit and Runne as an affront to you?

Secondly when I post in this colour I am as any other user and am entitled to my view, as a long time caravan engineer to voice my opinion.

As you later said you have NEVER done a delam repair, so basically you have no idea what is involved or what is the correct thing to do or use .

What you suggested actually IS outlandish as far as a caravan is concerned, and just because you were taught something as an apprentice does not make that the right thing to do in the circumstances described.

Bodgit and Run IS without doubt insulting. Just how else could that be read? I have no issue with you having your opinion. Also I also have no objection to having a logical disagreement. But your lack of respect for my opinion is quite disgraceful. But then that’s my opinion.

At no point have I suggested that the method you described was incorrect. In fact, quite the opposite. My suggestion was mearly complimentary and based entirely on the fact that I have read, that in the past, swelling of the resins was an issue. This is demonstrated in the need for manufacturers to now say that their products do not expand.

It only involves a small number of tiny holes which are easily sealed. Not a great number as you suggested. I am very clear that in your opinion my suggestion is unworkable. That’s fine, I just happen to strongly disagree.

I have not been on this forum for long, but, quite frankly I was already impressed with the excellent advice you have provided to others. But I am shocked that you feel the need to insult other members.


John

 

[Jcloughie]

Steady on lads I have carried out delamination repairs to aircraft Panels and to helicopter rotor blades, some you have to fit bolts to keep the top and lower panels to dimension limits the bolts are then unscrewed and the holes filled. So you are, both correct but many ways to repair a certain fault.

Thank you Hutch. Simple and obvious to me.

John

 

[Damian]

It is absolutely no use comparing a helicopter with a caravan !!!they are noting even resembling similar and what may be required on the flying thing is not suitable in a caravan.
For a start a caravan does not fly and is as aerodynamic as a brick.
Secondly a caravan never leaves the ground and hardly ever travels at more than 60 MPH.

Perhaps it may just help to understand that floor delamination only affects the top plywood to polystyrene insulation bond.

The more people walk over an area , particularly heavy use areas such as the kitchen, main walkway etc, over a period of time the ply floor flexes and breaks the bond with the insulation as it is compressed.
The repair is basically filling the void between the insulation and the plywood , so it is totally unnecessary to drill holes right through the floor.

It has never been done and never will be done.

For you to say " This is demonstrated in the need for manufacturers to now say that their products do not expand. "

This is untrue.

The main and most widely used resin is made by Apollo and has been used for over 20 years to my knowledge and has never caused problems.
What has caused problems is people who think they know better, or simply do not know what they are doing using unsuitable products.

You also say " based entirely on the fact that I have read, that in the past, swelling of the resins was an issue "
The question is, who wrote those "factual" pieces, certainly not anyone who knows what to use.

As for what I post, I get really fed up with people posting "fixes" which are just not right for the item in question, especially when they have not done the particular job themselves, and do not sugar coat what I say.

 

[Jcloughie]

It is absolutely no use comparing a helicopter with a caravan !!!they are noting even resembling similar and what may be required on the flying thing is not suitable in a caravan.
For a start a caravan does not fly and is as aerodynamic as a brick.
Secondly a caravan never leaves the ground and hardly ever travels at more than 60 MPH.

Perhaps it may just help to understand that floor delamination only affects the top plywood to polystyrene insulation bond.

The more people walk over an area , particularly heavy use areas such as the kitchen, main walkway etc, over a period of time the ply floor flexes and breaks the bond with the insulation as it is compressed.
The repair is basically filling the void between the insulation and the plywood , so it is totally unnecessary to drill holes right through the floor.

It has never been done and never will be done.

For you to say " This is demonstrated in the need for manufacturers to now say that their products do not expand. "

This is untrue.

The main and most widely used resin is made by Apollo and has been used for over 20 years to my knowledge and has never caused problems.
What has caused problems is people who think they know better, or simply do not know what they are doing using unsuitable products.

You also say " based entirely on the fact that I have read, that in the past, swelling of the resins was an issue "
The question is, who wrote those "factual" pieces, certainly not anyone who knows what to use.

As for what I post, I get really fed up with people posting "fixes" which are just not right for the item in question, especially when they have not done the particular job themselves, and do not sugar coat what I say.

Much of that is so, but when it comes to the physics, eminently transferable skills and methods. It demonstrates little understanding. I 100% stand by what I have said.

Your comments remind me of a story. In my trade there was a long time accepted method of completing a procedure. A friend suggested an alternative. We tested it and it proved to be better aesthetically and faster.

Nevertheless. As the old method was so entrenched, for the next 45 years we kept getting people telling us we were doing it wrong. We asked why? They said “well no one else does it that way“. Or “we were taught differently”. One by one we demonstrated how our method was better and in that way converted very many.

Always best I find to be open minded on all things. Amazing what gems can be picked up.

Damian. from what you have said, I really don’t think you fully understand the idea behind the few very thin bolts. And how they work. And I repeat, they may not be necessary. Just as you say.

Just to assure you re. the swelling floor issue I read about. I have no idea how far back it referred and I don’t even know if it’s true. But nevertheless. Read it I certainly did.

I see you raised the possibility of someone using expanding foam. Fantasic stuff, I even helped introduce it into use about 1978 After being introduced to it in Germany. But I would never suggest using it in a caravan floor. Apart from The containment, it’s not suitable for the task.

Just read here. This manufacturer even warns that precautions need to be taken by clamping or weights. Perhaps I’m not so crazy!


Can we leave this please. We have different ideas on the subject and you don’t seem inclined to apologise for your remarks.


John

 

[DaveA1]

Hi all.

Have had some great advice on here with regards to my pump and thank to all that helped... all fixed now

My next job is the floor... its quite badly delaminated.... ive done a tonne of research and very happy to tackle the job myself... only thing is there are a stack of different types and brands of resin out there and could really do with some inpedendant advice on which sort to go for.

Some info as it may be relevent... quite a large area needs doing (about 2 meter square).... ill be repairing from the top rather than from underneath... and fairly certain that its only a delamination issue and not damp (i know if it turns out to be the latter it suddenly becomes a whole different job, at which point ill be back on here screaming for help)

So my questions.... should i go for the two-part resin or the one shot stuff ive seen.... and are there any particular brands you guys would recommend or avoid... and realistically how long after its been pumped in should i leave it before i start walking around in the van and sanding the remnants etc.... ive heard 24hrs but is that really long enough?

All help and advice appreciated. Steve

Are you still there Steve.

I and my lad have repaired only one delaminated floor, so will tell you how we did it as a layman.

We used the two part Epoxy Resins, and did as it said on the tin, as far as the procedure goes.

First thing we did was to level the van, both ways, couldn't see the point of letting the resin run to the lowest point.

We then, using scissor jacks, we put a beam under the floor just to brace it gently, only just touching, if you tapped it, it would move.

inside, we made a mess or removing the floor covering. Then as I said we followed "what it said on the tin" Easy

My lad obtained a second syringe from somewhere, so the injection part was done very quickly.

Then we placed just two house bricks in the middle, on some grease proof paper.

Solid after 24 hours, cleaned floor and renewed floor covering. looked spotless.

Can't remember how long it took but, we were sitting partaking of tea and biscuits in no time.




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