gas bottles

[Gafferbill]

John ......trust me

One day you will be on a pitch with butane and the temperatures will drop to near freezing and your butane will not deliver .......you will think you have run out of gas!
That will be the day you vow to change to propane

I use 13 kgs Calor Propane as the cheaper readily available option.

 

[Parksy]

Hi Beehphee

Where I am Butane is a lower cost option,........

....My understanding is that Butane has a higher calorific value than Propane and along with the lower purchase price should prove a cost effective contender to Propane.

I don't use a lot of gas, but if I did I would certainly think about using Butane for the greater part of the year.

To be honest we use such a small quantity of LPG over the course of a year that the lower cost of butane versus propane doesn't really impact on us. I cook the occasional breakfast at weekends but for main meals we often either have a casserole from our slow cooker (electric), a Pertinggg!!! chicken tikka masala curry (electric) or we eat out. One of our caravan cooker hobs is electric so that also helps.
A Pertinggg!!! curry I hear you ask?

5 minutes in the microwave and Pertinggg!!! - its done!

 

[Dustydog]

We are away a lot each year and probably only buy two new cylinders. We carry two 6kg propane as we use the caravan in the winter. Only the gas hob , oven and BBQ use the gas . The rest of our power comes off the EHU.

We will us gas initially to warm up the caravan in the winter then back to just electric. If you are off grid then clearly your consumption of gas will be greater.
A few years ago I posted on here the hourly gas usage of our appliances but for now I can't find it :woohoo:
Surprisingly a 6kg propane lasts a lot longer than most think. If I find the thread I'll post it again.

 

[Craigyoung]

Even when it is very cold and we get on site I only ever power it up with the electric on and put the heating straight on , no gas , by the time we have unpacked the car sorted the awning out , sorted the kids out and get a chance to sit down , we've got a sweat on anyway , by which time the heating needs turned down in the van !!

 

[Dustydog]

Even when it is very cold and we get on site I only ever power it up with the electric on and put the heating straight on , no gas , by the time we have unpacked the car sorted the awning out , sorted the kids out and get a chance to sit down , we've got a sweat on anyway , by which time the heating needs turned down in the van !!

I've seen you Craig!
You're the ones who keep running around the site all the time

 

[ProfJohnL]

I understand the price difference and different connections but I can’t get my head round why calor have 2 types of gas that both do the same job.
BP

Hello BP,

From a camping and caravanning perspective both gasses do seem very similar, but the differences becomes more apparent when you look at other high gas demand applications. For example you will never see roofers and road layers using Butane, they will only use Propane, and if you look carefully you may well see their bottles with a layer of frost coincident with the level of the liquid in the bottle. It really is frost, and its becasue the liquified gas inside the cylinder is trying to boil to produce vapour, and it needs so much heat which it drags from the surrounding ambient air it actually cools the cylinder to do it. If you tried to do it with butane, it would work for a while, but as soon as the cylinder cooled to a little above freezing point, the liquified butane is simply not warm enough to boil so it stops producing gas. It just so happens the boiling point of butane is about 1C where as the boiling point of Propane is about -43C.

That is the reason why Butane id not a good choice for winter caravanning. Because the cylinder actually cool down when you use gas, the more you use the more the bottle cools, and you can easily reach the point where the bottle is several degrees below the ambient temperature. such that if you are caravanning 5C or less its quite likely butane bottles will stop working; commonalty miss called "freezing" but in fact its actually stopped boiling.

Butane was originally burnt off by the refineries as a waste product, When caravanning started to look for cooking and heating it was principally done in the summer holidays Calor saw an opportunity for Butane in the leisure industry. But winter caravanning is now more popular so there is greater demand for propane That why both types of gas are available.

 

[Alanbrooke]

Go to Spain and get the gas there - if it's feasible! 11kg CEPSA propane costs 15 euros and the bottle is free. 12kg butane is 17 Euros from CEPSA. We bring a full bottle home and it lasts us all season in UK.
Why do the British gas suppliers rip us off - there must be a cartel operating illegally.

 

[Buckman]

Go to Spain and get the gas there - if it's feasible! 11kg CEPSA propane costs 15 euros and the bottle is free. 12kg butane is 17 Euros from CEPSA. We bring a full bottle home and it lasts us all season in UK.
Why do the British gas suppliers rip us off - there must be a cartel operating illegally.

It costs you nearly £1200 to get to Spain and back so not really free! :lol: However you are correct about British suppliers ripping us off. We have a 7kg Safefill bottle and cost is less than £10 for a refill. From empty I think it was about £7!

 

[ProfJohnL]

Go to Spain and get the gas there - if it's feasible! 11kg CEPSA propane costs 15 euros and the bottle is free. 12kg butane is 17 Euros from CEPSA. We bring a full bottle home and it lasts us all season in UK.
Why do the British gas suppliers rip us off - there must be a cartel operating illegally.

Ripping Off? That is the job of EVERY commercial business, to get the biggest sale for the smallest cost, in other words profit! Competition is supposed to drive retail prices down, by encouraging businesses to squeeze profits, but the danger is when the big boys squeeze too hard, it often forces the smaller traders out of business.

The energy market ( of which petroleum and its derivatives are part of) is a bit strange as there are some fixed costs set by regulators and government policies (inc Taxes), which distorts normal market financials.

 

[Buckman]

Go to Spain and get the gas there - if it's feasible! 11kg CEPSA propane costs 15 euros and the bottle is free. 12kg butane is 17 Euros from CEPSA. We bring a full bottle home and it lasts us all season in UK.
Why do the British gas suppliers rip us off - there must be a cartel operating illegally.

Ripping Off? That is the job of EVERY commercial business, to get the biggest sale for the smallest cost, in other words profit! Competition is supposed to drive retail prices down, by encouraging businesses to squeeze profits, but the danger is when the big boys squeeze too hard, it often forces the smaller traders out of business.

The energy market ( of which petroleum and its derivatives are part of) is a bit strange as there are some fixed costs set by regulators and government policies (inc Taxes), which distorts normal market financials.

JohnL the problem here is that Calor seem to have a stranglehold on the market and it has been known that they will not supply a dealer with refills if that dealer is selling another brand of gas.
Regarding ripoffs to refill a Calor bottle cost approximately £26 or more for 6kg of gas. A Safefill refill for 7kg costs about £7 which means the Calor refill is nearly 4 times the cost! Blatant rip off!

 

[Raywood]

Calor prices vary considerably. We changed our 6 kg bottle for £17 at a CAMH site, but others have been charged as much as £35. Possibly a bit of shopping round might be needed if you have time.

 

[ProfJohnL]

JohnL the problem here is that Calor seem to have a stranglehold on the market and it has been known that they will not supply a dealer with refills if that dealer is selling another brand of gas.
Regarding ripoffs to refill a Calor bottle cost approximately £26 or more for 6kg of gas. A Safefill refill for 7kg costs about £7 which means the Calor refill is nearly 4 times the cost! Blatant rip off!

I.m sorry but I don't see Calor as having a strangle hold on the market, as there are other alternative brands available on a local basis. What Calor does have is a nationwide network of retailers who can exchange Calor bottles, which no other supplier has achieved.

Whilst Calor seems to be to only nationwide supplier, it is not a monopoly because any other brands could expand to compete with Calor if they chose to do so. Setting up a nationwide supply network for gas bottles is a daunting prospect, and the economics would require a massive injection of capitol, and that wold almost certainly squeeze the profit margin, causing the new supplier to put up prices.

Whilst Calor are the virtual sole supplier in some places they as any profitable business will push the price point as far as they can.

As for Calor refusing to supply business that sell other brands of LPG, that is nothing new and is a common commercial practice. It is up to the retailer to decide what brand they want to handle. You wouldn't expect Esso to supply a Shell filling station would you?

For another brand to set up a nationwide selling platform. it would almost certainly need to piggy back on an existing business with existing nationwide outlets, for example a supermarket chain.

 

[Buckman]

JohnL the problem here is that Calor seem to have a stranglehold on the market and it has been known that they will not supply a dealer with refills if that dealer is selling another brand of gas.
Regarding ripoffs to refill a Calor bottle cost approximately £26 or more for 6kg of gas. A Safefill refill for 7kg costs about £7 which means the Calor refill is nearly 4 times the cost! Blatant rip off!

I.m sorry but I don't see Calor as having a strangle hold on the market, as there are other alternative brands available on a local basis. What Calor does have is a nationwide network of retailers who can exchange Calor bottles, which no other supplier has achieved.

Whilst Calor seems to be to only nationwide supplier, it is not a monopoly because any other brands could expand to compete with Calor if they chose to do so. Setting up a nationwide supply network for gas bottles is a daunting prospect, and the economics would require a massive injection of capitol, and that wold almost certainly squeeze the profit margin, causing the new supplier to put up prices.

Whilst Calor are the virtual sole supplier in some places they as any profitable business will push the price point as far as they can.

As for Calor refusing to supply business that sell other brands of LPG, that is nothing new and is a common commercial practice. It is up to the retailer to decide what brand they want to handle. You wouldn't expect Esso to supply a Shell filling station would you?

For another brand to set up a nationwide selling platform. it would almost certainly need to piggy back on an existing business with existing nationwide outlets, for example a supermarket chain.

Not sure why you have tried to use Shell or Esso services stations as an example as those are generally owner by the fuel company whereas a caravan dealership is not owned by a gas company and should have freedom of choice.
There are other suppliers but why don't you see any Flogas cylinders on for example a CC, C&CC site or at a caravan dealership. Calor have a stranglehold on the market when it comes to caravans and are uncompetitive.
Not sure why you are even bothering to defend Calor unless you have shares in the company. LOL!

 

[ProfJohnL]

-+

...Not sure why you have tried to use Shell or Esso services stations as an example as those are generally owner by the fuel company whereas a caravan dealership is not owned by a gas company and should have freedom of choice.
There are other suppliers but why don't you see any Flogas cylinders on for example a CC, C&CC site or at a caravan dealership. Calor have a stranglehold on the market when it comes to caravans and are uncompetitive.
Not sure why you are even bothering to defend Calor unless you have shares in the company. LOL!

I do not have shares in Calor, and I'm not defending the company, I'm only pointing out that they have done what others could have done if they had wanted to. There is no doubt that Calor has become dominant in this field in the UK, but they do not hold a monopoly on the supply of LPG to the UK.

Dealers can choose who's gas to supply, They will have their reasons for choosing to go with Calor over the like of Flogas for example. And it is a perfectly normal practice for a commodity supplier to refuse to deal with a business who sells a competitors product.

In point of fact most filling stations are owned by small businesses who take up a franchise with the likes of Shell Esso. BP etc , and one of the terms of that franchise will be a supply of only one brand of product. Pubs are another example, where free houses can buy their drinks from any source, but will often find resistance for a major brewery to supply if a competitors brand is also featured.