GAS GAS GAS

[jasPALL]

Hi, New to touring and just purchased pride & joy from dealer.
it came with a starter pack including a 6kg BP propane Gas bottle but our neighbours have said Calor would be better because we may struggle to get the BP one refilled if needed on the vast majority of sites.
Can anyone confirm if our neighbours are correct? Considering asking dealer if they are able to change but happy to stay with BP if there isn't a problem ~ apparently BP are cheaper than Calor??

kindest regards

 

[Martin24]

No personal experience but have heard tale of people finding it more difficult to get BP. We've always used calor and are quite happy with the lite which we have used since it came out.

 

[JohnGriffiths]

You can get BP gas at most Homebase stores so there are quite a few outlets.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello JasPALL

LPG (Liquefied Petroleum Gas)for caravans is sold by several different companies. The largest distributor for caravans in the UK is Calor gas, but over the last ten years or so other suppliers (such as BP, shell, Flo gas etc) have started to sell to consumers as well as their traditional trade customers.

There are two types of gas LPG (Liquefied Petroleum Gas) that are compatible with caravans Butane and Propane. These are both sold in similar types of bottle. Calor has a virtual monopoly on Butane (blue bottle) gas for caravans, and the other suppliers tend to only supply Propane which is favored by most commercial users. I should point out that Calor do also supply Propane (red Bottle).

The main difference between the gasses is seasonal usage. If you intend to use your caravan when frosts or sub zero temperatures are likely, then you should use Propane. If on the other hand you only intend to caravan when the temperature is not likely to drop below 5C, then Butane will be satisfactory. The reason is that the bottle of gas need to be able to draw enough heat from the air around the bottle to be able to boil the LPG in the bottle to turn it from liquid to vapour. Butane stops boiling at around 0C where as Propane can go as low as -40C

If you intend to caravan all year round in the UK then Propane is perfectly suitable.

BP is at the fore-front of supplying caravan propane in refillable bottles. These can only be filled at licensed filling points, so you may have to travel some distance to refill the bottle. In this case you own the bottle, and you refill the same bottle each time. where as other suppliers usually offer an exchange system, where you initially rent a bottle, and exchange it for a refilled bottle. where you exchange a bottle it has to be for one of the same make.

Without any doubt Calor has the widest network of agents in the UK, but none abroad, Other suppliers tend to operate in smaller areas of the UK, so you may find you cannot exchange some suppliers bottles in some parts of the UK and almost certainly not abroad.

with a BP refillable bottle you may find you can refill it abroad.

With all these variations on availability the compromise is usually the cost of the gas. Don't just look at caravan dealers for gas, also look at builders merchants and garden centers.

Also bear n mind that whilst most propane bottles use the same 'POL' connector, butane bottles from different supplies may have different connectors, so you must make sure you have the correct bottle connector/pigtail for the type and make of gas you are using.

 

[Steve L]

First of all, welcome to the world of caravanning. To start with a lot of things seem strange to newbies, so don't be afraid to ask here on the forum. You'll find a varitable raft of knowledge and advice here.
I've been caravanning for nearly 30 years and even now I still find good advice from our forum members.

BP has become a mainstream competator to calor, for the supply of bottled gas, but there are a dozen or so different gas suppliers, all of whom, will sell you gas but only if you use their bottles for exchange.

In my case because my work was based around agricultural construction, I use flo gas for my supply. Flo gas is one of the top suppliers to farmers outlets and plant hire companies, also a lot of caravan sites stock it. I pay £24 for an 11kg refill of propane and £14 for 7kg butane refill. The way around being charged a surcharge on gas exchange from one supplier to another is to resort to a bit of comodity trading. this is how it works.
Buy a box of tea bags and a bag of sugar. Got to your local council recycling depot and ask if you can swap the brew kit for an empty gas bottle of the brand you require. 9 times out of 10, you'll get your bottle at a fraction of the surcharge price.
John is quite right to say that propane will work down to -40c, but in my experiance as a fulltime caravaner over the last 3+ years, butane will operate in -5c. This is mainly due to heat transfer from the front of the caravan into the gas locker raising the air temp around the gas bottles. one tip for getting butane gas to work better in the cold is to boil a kettle of water, fill a hot water bottle and place it next to the butane bottle in the gas locker.

I run both butane and propane in our van by having a 7Kg butane and a 11kg propane bottle in the gas locker. I have set them up with their relevant regulators, 30mb butane and 37mb propane. I also have two isolation valves so that I can switch over to either gas instantly. You dealer could sort that out for you if your not a gas safe engineer.
As for gas consumption, 11kg of propane lasted me 8 1/2 months spanning last winter, and 7kg of butane last's about 6 months. This is with us using the gas cooker twice a day on average including cooking a 8Lb turkey for christmas dinner last yaer to feed us two, our two children 23 & 28 and their partners. On the whole the gas cosumption of the two are simlar in as much as prorata, the bottles last about the same time per kilo of gas. But propane is more expensive.
From the point of view of normal touring holidays, I would recomend carrying two gas bottles of propane in your case as that would be cheaper than the cost of changing regulators etc. It would probably take 10 years to recoupe the cost of conversion. You may well want to explore the cost of gas refills of different brands of propane but I have found that flo gas is affiliated to Shell and the other two calor and BP cover the rest as far as propane is concerned. Also, caravan sites and caravan dealers tend to charge about 20% more than farmers shops and plant hire shops, so it pays to shop around.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello JasPAL,

Steve has been kind enough to describe his gas consumption 11kG over 8.5 months.

I Fell this might be somewhat misleading:- I am sure Steve will clarify it , but I believe he lives full time in the caravan. He has 230V ac hookup all the time, so his use of gas is generally restricted to cooking. Most of his other heating demands (water and space heating and his fridge) will be serviced by the mains 230V supply.

As a tourer, you may not always have a hook up (that depends on which sites you choose to book), so if you don't have a mains hook up, then you will be using gas for space and water heating, and running the fridge.

All these additional loads on the gas supply will of course shorten the life of each refill.

However there is no need to be alarmed, as most caravanners survive.

Steve also has an unusual supply arrangement, having both Butane and Propane bottles connected but most importantly via isolating change-over valves. For safety you must never connect more than one type of gas to the system at the same time, mixing the gasses is potentially very dangerous.

Most caravanners stick to just one type of gas at a time.

Steve also suggests a method of keeping butane bottles working at near or sub zero temperatures. Yes it can work, but the reason may not be obvious:-

When you use LPG from a bottle, the action of the liquefied gas vapourising and expanding to it gaseous state (boiling) actually cools the bottle. It is the same process that is used in refrigerators and if you have ever seen roofers boiling tar with a bottle of Propane, you may well have seen the band of frost at the bottom of the bottle which denotes the level of the liquefied gas remaining in the bottle. The problem is worse the faster you use the gas.

Because the bottle is cooled from inside, do not try to insulate the bottle as this will prevent the bottle from drawing warmth from its surroiundings.

This is a problem for Butane users, as butane stops boiling at around 0C but because the bottle cools as you use it, the practical production of vapour drops awayandcan stop from about 5C and lower. The gas suppliers sometimes add other gasses to the butane to try to improve its low temperature performance, but it is not always successful. Warming the bottles will get it going until the supply of external heat is used up.

 

[Gafferbill]

Steve also has an unusual supply arrangement, having both Butane and Propane bottles connected but most importantly via isolating change-over valves. For safety you must never connect more than one type of gas to the system at the same time, mixing the gasses is potentially very dangerous.

Surely this is a myth that has come about by the continued passing on of unverified facts without any scientific evaluation.
It is not good enough to state either as ‘advice’ or that a ‘rule’ exists, that the gas ratio should be 100%.
To put it another way……. Do not to mix Propane with Butane.
Why can it not be an 85% mixture ratio?
We all know that the advice to carry ' as small an amount of gas for you requirements’ ....is the safest option.

The vast amount of experience that is 'The French camping and caravaning scene'... accepts that Propane can be mixed with Butane and is widely marketed under the brand name Campingaz.

 

[ProfJohnL]

Hello Gaffer,
Gaffer I would not normally respond to such an obviously provocative post, even with the smily face, but I stand by my previous staments regardles of how inflamitary you see them.
However there are two good reasons why it is necessary in this case.

• Firstly there is the legal situation - which is set out in the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations - where it is expressly forbidden to connect two different gas supplies to the same installation.
• Secondly there is ample scientific and engieneering verifiable facts from the gas suppliers about the properties of the gasses and their safe handling and usage.

The above relates to the connection of different types of gas to a common installation, which is different to the practice of most commercial butane suppliers who do pre-mix butane with other LPG's which may include propane.
There is a real potential danger of mixing differnt gas supplies to a common installation, If a pure butane bottle is cross connencetd with propane, the higher vapour pressure of the propane will over pressureise the pure butane bottle. Whilst there is technically little difference on the construction of commercial propane and butane bottles the same is not true of the valve gear. In the UK most gas suppliers fit fuel specieifc valves which incorporate over pressure relief valves. Butane has a lower OPR setting, so if the bottle is contaminated with Propane, it may start to vent at lower temperatures that it is expected to do.
If you can find any gas supplier or caravan installation designer that approves the connection of both a butane and propane bottle to simutaneously supply a common installtion, then please tell us.

 

[Surfer]

• Firstly there is the legal situation - which is set out in the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations - where it is expressly forbidden to connect two different gas supplies to the same installation.
• Secondly there is ample scientific and engieneering verifiable facts from the gas suppliers about the properties of the gasses and their safe handling and usage.

I would say that the above is incorrect otherwise caravanners would not be able to swap from Butane to Propane without removing all the pipework that was used to supply the other gas i.e. the same installation. Please post a link to the regulations where it specifically state that different gases cannot be used in the same installation.

 

[Gafferbill]

Prof…….I am sorry that you found my post provocative, it was meant as a bit of fun, all be it at your expense.
I bow to your superior knowledge on all things gas!

Since my approach to caravaning is to enjoy myself and minimalise hassle, I am glad that I can stick to the well proven and simple system of using only Calor Propane cylinders with a cylinder top regulator.

 

[TonyG]

Why use one sentence when a whole page will do!!

 

[ProfJohnL]

General Note
I have no intention of setting out on a long debate on this subject on this thread. Good sense should tell anyone that messing around with mixing gasses is dangerous practice. It is a serious subject and should not be used as means to follow any personal motives.
This will be my last post on this thread. If anyone wishes to take it further open a new thread.

Surfer,
I covered the first point in an earleir post
"For safety you must never connect more than one type of gas to the system at the same time, mixing the gasses is potentially very dangerous."
It's not that you can't change gasses it just you must not run differnt gasses into the same system at the same time.
Now I do hold my hands up, I was wrong about the prohibition being specifically itemised in the Gas Safety (Installation & Use) Regulations (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/1886/contents/made) But it was part of the ACOPS that I had to follow when working daily with Gas.
If you don't believe me - ask Damian to comment on the practice. or Calor or Gas safe.
Anyone who suggest trying to use two different gas type bottles at the same time is being extremely irresponsible.
I am not going to get involed in a protracted discussion on this subject good sense dictates don't mess with gas

 

[TD42]

The other posters are all correct. you have BP gas which is propane. this can be used all year round in the UK.Its added advantage is the 27mm bottle connector it uses can also be used with the French Le Cube gas cylinder if you ever need to buy gas in France.
Another factor is the contents level can alway be seen.so you are aware of how much gas you have, in the UK it is reasoably easy to obtain from places such as B&G Homebase ect & a great many caravaners use it

 

[Damian]

Just to clarify the point that JohnL has made regarding Butane and Propane being used.

Firstly and most importantly is that if one decides to have the two gases then they MUST be installed so that AT NO TIME do they EVER become connected to the system at the same time.
There MUST be a safety valve which only allows ONE gas to be used at any one time, and if using Propane and then switching to Butane, the pressure in the system MUST be dropped by burning off the Propane before opening the Butane cylinder.

Both gases can be used on Caravan and motorhome appliances but only in isolation from each other.

The reason is that Butane is stored in the cylinder at 2.8Bar, Propane is at 6Bar and there is a very real danger of damaging the Butane valving by having such a large pressure acting on it.

 

[Surfer]

Being a pendantic but the answer helps increase my knowledge. If you are changing bottles from Butane to Propane, surely there must be Butane still in the system which will mix with new Propane? As per John this is dangerous and illegal. Can you please clarify? I understand all the guff about the valves as that is common sense or should be anyway.

 

[Damian]

Surfer, the problem only arises regarding the difference in pressures.
There is no danger in the actual GAS mixing, ie butane with propane, but it has to be at the lower pressure.
Nearly all pressurised canisters of things like Deodorant, Hairspray, Paint etc , the propellant is butapropane, which is a mix of both gases.
So just to recap, both gases are OK to use, but neither must be used at the same time as each other, they must be in isolation and as such a failsafe changeover system MUST be used to prevent cross pressure mixing.

 

[Steve L]

It is correct to say that you don't have to expell all butane gas prior to connecting propane as both gases serve a common purpose.
What you do have to do is to vent the pressure down when changing from propane 37mb down to butane 30mb. Going the opposite way doesn't present any issues.
On my particular application, I have fitted an isolation valve to the butane gas line infront of the regulator viewed from the bottle pigtail towards the regulator (gas flow direction). This isolates and protects the 30mb butane regulator from any back pressure by the propane gas (37mb). Then I have fitted an isolator in the same position on the propane gas line. All I have to do is to isolate the propane gas and then open a cooker valve to vent a small amount of gas. (remember we are only talking of 7mb difference).

The most important thing is NOT TO BURN OFF THE GAS PRESSURE as was suggested. By burning off gas you could damage the regulator as they do have flash back protective mechanisums. Any way doing that would be a kin to looking for a petrol leak with a match.

To set everyones minds at rest I did the same as Doug (Mr fix it) King, I got a registered gas safe engineer to check my instalation and he was both satisfied with the installation and the methodogy. Trust me, gas engineers are very very carefull checking someone elses workmanship.

 

[Damian]

I am not prepared to enter into a long protracted debate with Steve, suffice to say that I am Gas Safe Registered and work to current rules and regulations.
I do NOT work to Mr Fixit rules, or anyone elses rules.

If there is ANY possibility that the two cylinders can be open at the same time, the installation is illegal simple as that.

 

[DeliDave_]

Steve and Mr fixit King are very lucky to find a registerd engineer toi check their work.I am also LPG registered and if I don't do it I don't get involved and I wouldnt do that to quote meatloaf.If anything goes wrong I wouldnt want to be telling a Gassafe Inspector what had been done

 

[Damian]

Dave, I am the same as you.
I dont certify ANYONE elses work, I simply do not trust them.
The sooner they bring caravans and motorhomes fully into Gas Safe Regulation the better, to stop all this cowboy fiddling about with what is a lethal fuel source.

Note: NEVER vent unburnt LPG into the caravan. The ONLY accepted way of lowering pressure is by burning off the excess.

 

[Steve L]

Now steady on there Damien, your now implying Mr Fix it Doug is a cowboy when it comes to doing gas plumbing.

To be honest I can see yours and Daves point about having to check other peoples work and the implications it might have on your legal obligations and liability insurance cover. But then you run that risk everytime you work on any household or commercial system that has not been installed by you. Hence why a gas safety check is what one does before starting work on LPG and then after the completed work to variy the safety of the installation.

Now I'll ask a question. Do you have your personal workmanship independantly checked or do you issue yourself a safety certificate? I would like your answer to this question please.

As for the venting of gas. The volume of gas released is minimal to get below 30mb and approximately equivalent to the amount released while lighting the gas ring.

 

[Damian]

Please do NOT put implications into my postings.
If anyone is fiddling wth gas they MUST be qualified, at least to ACoPS and preferably to Gas safe.
If Mr King is neither, then he is a cowboy.

As for Gas Safe Engineers having work checked independently, you can bet your life they do.
Gas Safe take gas safety very seriously and Gas Safe Inspectors can, and do, arrive unannounced and want to see what work you have done, and assess your working practices as you carry out gas work.

As for your comment about the amount of gas vented dropping pressure you are miles off the mark with your "quantity". it is much more, about a cubic foot more, so please do not advocate practices which are clearly very unsafe.

 

[DeliDave_]

Steve,I have to register all heating installations ,fires water heaters etc with the Local Authority via Gassafe.I also have to sign a declaration with each installation with details of gasrates,pressures and that it complies with the manufacturers instructions and Building regs.The gassafe inspector accesses this list and chooses jobs to inspect,therfore if I approved an installation done by an unqualified person and not carried out correctly I would be suspended,possibly removed fromn the register or referred for retraining.You can see why I would be reluctant to check others work or cut corners.Things are a lot tighter than years ago.
Also from another point of view,when you alter things from the manufacturers spec without his approval you would be on a sticky wicket if anyone got hurt,on the gas courses much emphasis is put on complying with the manufacturers instructions.I'm not trying to shoot anyone down but in all honesty is it worth the hassle?

 

[Steve L]

I do understand your view Dave and fully understand the gas safe scheme and how it works. I also fully understand the reasons why.
I did ask a very specific question to damien and did very nicely ask for a reply, but as normal, he has skidded around it without giving a definative yes or no.
There is a regulation in place for Electricians, Gas engineers, MOT testers, passenger carrying boat charter owners and light aircraft owners, that states that, they are not allowed to self certify any property belonging to themselves.

I don't think it fair to brand a competent person as a cowboy without just cause. I would call that "ring fencing your trade".(which I do note that Dave hasn't implied)

I have had the experience of purchasing a property that belonged to an electrician. It was an experience alright! I had it gas and electricity safety tested, as I was letting it out. There were so many faults in the electric wiring that the guy doing the testing stopped the test. In short I totally rewired the place as we found so many faults. Now before I get pounced upon and handed my six shooter and stetsan, I am NIC-EIC registered. I have to be to trouble shoot and repair chicken shed heating and ventilation systems.

 

[Damian]

Quote"
I did ask a very specific question to damien and did very nicely ask for a reply, but as normal, he has skidded around it without giving a definative yes or no.
There is a regulation in place for Electricians, Gas engineers, MOT testers, passenger carrying boat charter owners and light aircraft owners, that states that, they are not allowed to self certify any property belonging to themselves."

Where did I "skirt around" your question?
I answered your question relating to having independent checking of work done. To say again,,,,YES my work IS subject to independent checking.
As for my own house, as it is Natural Gas, I cannot certify it as I am LPG Qualified.

As for my van I CAN certify it as it , like every other job is subject to being indepednently checked at any time.
I have no qualms about this as I will only work to, and within, the regulations.

I would like to know precisely which regulation stops a certified engineer certifying his own work.

Rule and regulation please?